So, 'partial works salvation' is ok? Really???
Look up the word, Grace.
So, 'partial works salvation' is ok? Really???
Look up the word, Grace.
Again. Not all uses of the words translated, "sanctification", are referring to the ongoing process, but sometimes the original, one-time, imputation put on us at regeneration. You have not shown otherwise.First, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 is talking about how the gospel calls us to... God has chosen us to salvation THROUGH the Sanctification of the Spirit (Holy living), and a belief of the truth.
“...God hath from the beginning
chosen you to salvation through
sanctification of the Spirit
and belief of the truth:
Whereunto he called you by our gospel,...”
(2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).
Side Note: The gospel is mentioned clearly in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.
You also have to understand that the gospel calls us and it does not force us or compels us to be a certain way. A sales person who calls you does not always convince you of what they are selling just because they called.
Anyways, Just look at the context in 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, and it proves that Sanctification of the Spirit is in reference to holy living. Verse 12 gives us the polar opposite of what 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says. It states:
“That they all might be damned who believed not the truth,
but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”
(2 Thessalonians 2:12).
#1. Believed not the truth (vs. 12) (is pollar opposite of): Belief of the truth (vs. 13).
#2. Pleasure in unrighteousness (vs. 12) (is pollar opposite of): Sanctification of the Spirit (vs. 13).
Verse 16-17 also confirms this, as well. It states:
“...and hath given us everlasting consolation
and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts,
and stablish you in every good word and work.”
(1 Thessalonians 2:16-17).
#1. Good hope through grace (vs. 16) = Belief of the truth (vs. 13).
#2. Every good word and work (vs. 17) = Sanctification of the Spirit (vs. 13).
Second, just because I choose someone does not mean they are saved. For example: Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” (John 6:70). So just because Jesus chose Judas, does not mean Judas was saved in the end. Judas fell by his transgression (Acts of the Apostles 1:25). In fact, Judas being among the twelve was at one point in time a sheep.
“These twelve Jesus sent forth,...” (Matthew 10:5).
“Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves.” (Matthew 10:16).
For example: It's like coach Rick choosing Bob for the football team. It does not mean Bob is going to win the game just because he was chosen to be on the team by the coach.
I wanted to stress the importance that God has chosen us to live a holy life. But that does not mean we will live a holy life. We have to fight the good fight of faith as a part laying hold on eternal life.
“Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.” (1 Timothy 6:12).
Why would Paul tell us to fight the good fight of faith and lay hold on eternal life if that is an automatic thing of being Calvinistically elected or chosen by God?
Three, then there is 2 Thessalonians 2:10 (Which is the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).
2 Thessalonians 2:10 blows away Calvinism to pieces. For it says:
“And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.” (2 Thessalonians 2:10).
Paul says that those who perish are perishing because THEY received not the love of the truth. The verse does not say that they perish because they were not elected by God. Also, the verse says that they (those who perish) MIGHT be saved. In Calvinism: There is no “might be saved.”
Here is another bonus verse that blows away Calvinism.
Jesus says in Luke 13:3,
“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.” (Luke 13:3).
Jesus is giving a conditional statement here in that if they don't repent, they will perish.
The thing is that in Calvinism: The Non-Elect cannot repent, and the Elect are never in danger of really ever perishing. So either Jesus was not aware of Calvinistic doctrine or the Calvinist really does not really believe what our Lord actually taught in this particular instance.
Again. Not all uses of the words translated, "sanctification", are referring to the ongoing process, but sometimes the original, one-time, imputation put on us at regeneration. You have not shown otherwise.
You said:You say, "The thing is that in Calvinism: The Non-Elect cannot repent, and the Elect are never in danger of really ever perishing. So either Jesus was not aware of Calvinistic doctrine or the Calvinist really does not really believe what our Lord actually taught in this particular instance." Your strawman representation has no resemblance to what we believe. Should I light into you with a similar representation of what you believe, that God is unable to save you without your good free choice? Do you dare to compare the power and integrity of freewill with the power and integrity of the Spirit of God?
Whether one is elect or not is shown at the resurrection, not now. Though we have confidence, we can (and do) fool ourselves; to many he will say, "depart from me —I never knew you." Calvinism doesn't claim otherwise. It does claim that we can know that salvation by grace through faith is a sure salvation, because of God's election. It does not posit nor imply salvation without obedience.
Does not your own inability to live up to your own conscience preach to you concerning the worthiness of your choices?
Galatians 3
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Again. Not all uses of the words translated, "sanctification", are referring to the ongoing process, but sometimes the original, one-time, imputation put on us at regeneration. You have not shown otherwise.
You say, "The thing is that in Calvinism: The Non-Elect cannot repent, and the Elect are never in danger of really ever perishing. So either Jesus was not aware of Calvinistic doctrine or the Calvinist really does not really believe what our Lord actually taught in this particular instance." Your strawman representation has no resemblance to what we believe. Should I light into you with a similar representation of what you believe, that God is unable to save you without your good free choice? Do you dare to compare the power and integrity of freewill with the power and integrity of the Spirit of God?
Whether one is elect or not is shown at the resurrection, not now. Though we have confidence, we can (and do) fool ourselves; to many he will say, "depart from me —I never knew you." Calvinism doesn't claim otherwise. It does claim that we can know that salvation by grace through faith is a sure salvation, because of God's election. It does not posit nor imply salvation without obedience.
Does not your own inability to live up to your own conscience preach to you concerning the worthiness of your choices?
Galatians 3
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
1 Corinthians 3Some people may ask me:
So Paul was wrong in his teaching that we are saved apart from works?
No. This is merely a misunderstanding by many within the church on Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, and Romans 4:2-6. In these portions of Scripture, we know from the whole of His Word that:
#1. Paul was referring to Initial Salvation or the Justification Process (Which is a process of salvation that does not include works) for one is first saved by God's grace and mercy and by His work of redemption through faith without works. For when a person seeks forgiveness with the Lord for the first time, they are not saved by anything they primarily did, but they are saved by Christ's mercy, and by believing in His finished work (i.e. His death, burial and resurrection). Ephesians 2:1 says we have been quickened. Being quickened is a one time act. Ephesians 2:8 refers to this kind of salvation as a gift. Gifts are received one time. So this is referring to "Initial Salvation." Ephesians 2:10 confirms that works will then follow one being saved. These are God directed works done through the believer (Philippians 2:13). Ephesians 2:9 refers to a completely different kind of work (i.e. Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism - because these are the kind of works a man would boast in himself in doing; Unlike the work in Ephesians 2:10 which are works we are created in Christ Jesus to do by the power and working of God).
#2. Paul was referring to "Law Alone Salvationism" (Which was in most cases in reference to trying to be saved by keeping the 613 Laws of Moses and not the commands that come from Jesus and His followers). The Pharisees believed in a form of Law ALONE Salvationism that de-emphasized God's grace. We see this in the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee (Luke 18:9-14). The Pharisee did not humble himself like the Tax Collector by crying out to God in seeking forgiveness over his sins.
Also, we know that there were a certain sect of Jews who wanted Christians to be saved by first being circumcised and or by keeping the whole of the Law of Moses.
- Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”
- Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”
- Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”
This is why Paul spoke against Law and works in the way that he did in the book of Romans, Galatians, and Corinthians. He was fighting against the heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism."
But make no mistake: Paul later spoke of the necessity of the Sanctification Process as a part of salvation in other verses. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God has chosen us to salvation by:
- Galatians 2:3 says, “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:”
- Galatians 5:2 says, “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”
- Galatians 5:6 says, “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”
- Galatians 6:15 (NLT) says, “It doesn't matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.”
- 1 Corinthians 7:18-19 says, 18 For instance, a man who was circumcised before he became a believer should not try to reverse it. And the man who was uncircumcised when he became a believer should not be circumcised now. (NLT) 19 “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.” (NASB)
- Romans 2:28-29 says, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”
- Romans 3:1 says, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”
- Romans 4:9-12 says, ”9 “Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”
- Acts of the Apostles 21:21 says, “And they are informed of you, that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.”
(a) A belief in the truth (i.e. Jesus is the truth - Jhn 14:6).
(b) Sanctification of the Spirit (Sanctification is referring to works because verse 12 says that there are those who did not believe the truth, and had pleasure in unrighteousness; And verses 16-17 says that God and the Son has given us an eternal comfort in the hope of his grace, and that he would establish us in every good word and work).
“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth...” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).
Paul says in Titus 1:16 that we can deny God by a lack of works.
Titus 2:11-12 says the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously, sober, and godly in this present world.
Paul says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine of godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James 4:6 says God resists the proud and he gives grace to the humble. Paul says “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1). This is supported by Paul saying in the same chapter: “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13). To "live after the flesh" is to live after sin. To "mortify the deeds of the body" is to put to death sin out of one's body via by the Spirit. Paul is referring to spiritual life vs. spiritual death because he says in Romans 8:1 about the same thing in relation to the "Condemnation" (Note: To learn more about the "Condemnation" see: John 3:19-21, and take note that everyone who does evil hates the light.).
In conclusion:
In Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, and Romans 4:2-6, etc: Paul was referring to the Justification Process (Which is the 1st step in the salvation process that is without works). This process of salvation is how we are initially and ultimately saved. For if a believer happens to stumble into sin on rare occasion, they do not do a good work to offset that sin, but they go to Jesus and they confess of their sins to be forgiven of that sin (See: 1 John 2:1, and 1 John 1:9). For he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy (Proverbs 28:13). For Paul says shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound? Paul's answer was not that we can do so and still be saved. His answer was: "God forbid" (See: Romans 6:1-2). His answer was: "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" (Romans 6:16). For Paul said that works of the flesh are these: Adultery, fornication, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, etc.; Paul says that they which do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God (See: Galatians 5:19-21). So Paul was defending the Justification Process of salvation (i.e. the 1st step in the salvation process), and James was defending the Sanctification Process in James 2:24 (i.e. the second step in the salvation process). For we are initially saved without works by God's grace through faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9) (Justification) when we first come to the Lord, and we are then later justified (saved) by works and not by faith alone aftwards (James 2:24) (Sanctification). For James says show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works (James 2:18). For faith without works is dead (James 2:17). But it is even more than just having works. One cannot justify sin. For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). Most churches today preach a greasy grace or easy believism. Yet, Jesus said narrow is the way. I will choose to follow Jesus and not the popular way promoted by most churches today.
Galatians 3
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
1 Corinthians 3
9 For we are laborers together with God: you are God's husbandry, you are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another builds thereon. But let every man take heed how he builds thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
But He did say that He would not cast away any who has come to Him ...Jesus did not advocate sin, and neither did He teach that a person can continue to sin and still be saved.
I guess you missed where I responded to the same set of claims concerning what MacArthur believes. Any of us uses hyperbole to make a point, and these statements are obviously taken out of context, besides, so you are going to have to do better than the media does to prove your point.Please carefully refer back to my post #70 within this thread about what John MacArthur actually believes. If after you were to look at his words within that post, I do not see how you could believe MacArthur believes in holy living; Especially seeing how he has made statements about how a believer can sin and still be saved. Justifying the idea that we can sin and still be saved is not holy living.
But He did say that He would not cast away any who has come to Him ...
John 6
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which sees the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
I guess you missed where I responded to the same set of claims concerning what MacArthur believes. Any of us uses hyperbole to make a point, and these statements are obviously taken out of context, besides, so you are going to have to do better than the media does to prove your point.
But besides that, you have yet to answer me how works can save anyone.
Do these not, just as I have been saying, demonstrate that one who does not obey has no right to claim to belong to Christ? Are you still going to claim, contrary to Scripture, that by works we have been saved by faith?Look at the verses more carefully in post #95.
So: You DO claim we are saved by works. I think we are done here.So do you ignore that Paul was referring to the Law of Moses and not the commandments of Jesus when he generically spoke of the words “law” and “works” in a negative light? If so, try reading the context sometime and you will see it refers in most cases to the Old Testament Law of Moses and NOT the commands of Jesus.
Then why the lambasting and antagonism against what I believe? Apparently you wish to continue to claim salvation by works.I also believe in grace just fine. I believe we are initially and foundationally saved by God’s grace. But Sanctification by the Spirit is another aspect of salvation that takes place after we are saved by God’s grace. They both work in harmony together. For Titus 2:11-12 says that God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world.
No. I came to believe something I only later found out was Reformed Theology, by long Bible study, hard experience and reasoning. Calvinism is not what you paint.You see grace as an Unconditional Election by God because you are a Calvinist. I see grace as…
God's Grace Through Faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior
(Initial Salvation, and or Foundational Salvation).
(The 1st synergistic work of GOD done in a believer).
Being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus as ones Savior is the entrance gate to salvation, and it is the foundation of our salvation (by faith) upon which we stand. Being saved by God's grace is believing the gospel (Which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes it - Romans 1:16). According to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4: The gospel is you believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, He was buried, and He had risen again three days later for your salvation (Note: Do not let anyone sell you on another gospel besides this one). Depending on a person’s access or exposure to the Word: Being saved by God's grace will also generally include receiving Jesus as your Savior (John 1:12), and calling upon the name of the Lord (i.e. confessing with your mouth the words: “Lord Jesus” or similar equivalent - Romans 10:9) as a part of seeking forgiveness of your sins with Him by way of prayer (Romans 10:13) (Luke 15:18-21) (Luke 18:9-14). This process of salvation is without the deeds of the Law or works because it is based upon God’s mercy and grace and His redemptive work. As a result: One is born again spiritually (Note: Born again by the Spirit, and born again by water (i.e. the Scriptures - Romans 10:17, 1 Peter 1:23)). A person is foundationally or ultimately saved by God’s grace because if they happen to sin on rare occasion in their Christian walk, they do not do a good work to absolve that sin, but they confess of their sins to Jesus in order to be forgiven of that sin (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1) (Hebrews 4:16) (For verses on being saved by God's grace, see: Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-6, Titus 3:4-7, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 18:9-14, Romans 5:1-2).
To get a more comprehensive picture of salvation, check out this thread here:
The Four Aspects of Salvation.
Do these not, just as I have been saying, demonstrate that one who does not obey has no right to claim to belong to Christ? Are you still going to claim, contrary to Scripture, that by works we have been saved by faith?
So you continue to promote salvation by works. Yep. We are done. I will answer the last few I see you have posted and be done.I provided the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 that proves my case, but you are simply ignoring it in favor of what you believe.
I also provided cross references, too.
Again, you fail to recognize what Jesus was saying in Luke 13:3. He was giving an either or position. Jesus was providing the possibility of being saved or not saved when this does not exist in Calvinism. 2 Thessalonians 2:10 makes this truth even more unmistakable. But again, your teachings from Calvinism does not allow you to see it (of course).
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