Why should humans be apart from God by default?

[alexiscurious]

Why should all humans be apart from God by default? Shouldn't everyone get the same opportunity Adam/Eve did? That is, the pleasant and worry free life that God initially destined all mankind to have in Eden? And then, from there, they can choose whether or not they want to be with God? Why didn't I have a choice like them? Why is it that billions are forced to be a part of a rebellion that only two people started? Is this fair?

 

[VDMA]

Is life fair?

They screwed it up for all of us. As to your answer, I cannot speak for God, but I am sure in His Providence He has a reason.

 

[graceandpeace]

Why should all humans be apart from God by default? Shouldn't everyone get the same opportunity Adam/Eve did? That is, the pleasant and worry free life that God initially destined all mankind to have in Eden? And then, from there, they can choose whether or not they want to be with God? Why didn't I have a choice like them? Why is it that billions are forced to be a part of a rebellion that only two people started? Is this fair?

I don't accept the Genesis creation account as a factual, "literal" event, but rather as a story meant to convey certain truths.

One truth is that God considers His creation - human beings, the Earth, the cosmos, everything - to be good. And yet, the creation now suffers. There is disaster. There is sickness. There is death.

Another truth, repeated for example in the stories of Cain & Abel, & Noah & the flood, is that humanity collectively from the beginning has succumbed to evil. People lie. People steal. People hate. People kill. And yet, we are still part of God's good creation.

So, what then?

The Christian hope is this: that one day, all things will be set right.

God's creation - though suffering now - will one day be redeemed. No more disaster, sickness, or death. No more evil.

That's the fullness of God's kingdom, it's realization. We are invited by Christ to new life, to participate in this kingdom right now. We are not sinless & will fall short, but we can choose to work towards setting things right, from speaking kindly to others to not being wasteful to feeding the hungry to defending the innocent to any & everything possible that reflects love for God & love for our neighbors.

 

[orangeness365]

my guess is that by being born that way keeps us from directly fighting and defying God as easily. In order to hurt God, you have to hurt other people and reject God, but it is hard to prove that you have fully rejected God, and even if you have you can still come back to Christ before you die. However, could you imagine if every single action you took was directly towards the Creator?

 

[aiki]

Why should all humans be apart from God by default? Shouldn't everyone get the same opportunity Adam/Eve did? That is, the pleasant and worry free life that God initially destined all mankind to have in Eden?

That we suffer from the consequences of Adam and Eve's sinful choice speaks to the terrible, destructive nature of sin, not to God's unfairness. Perhaps instead of finding fault with God you might take the effects of the Fall as cause to hate your sin.

And then, from there, they can choose whether or not they want to be with God?

People still have this choice to make today. And most choose to reject Him.

Why didn't I have a choice like them? Why is it that billions are forced to be a part of a rebellion that only two people started? Is this fair?

You do have a choice. And you have made it. I would urge you to choose differently.

It took only one sin to soil all of Creation and curse all those who have come after Adam and Eve. This is how dreadfully vile and destructive sin is. And this is why, in part, God hates sin so much and wants us to hate it, too. Do you hate sin?

Was it fair that Jesus was rejected and despised by the very creatures he had made and for whom he would sacrificially die? No. Life in our sin-cursed world wasn't fair for Jesus, the Son of God, either.

Selah.

 

[VDMA]

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[graceandpeace]

I don't mean to offend you, or debate your theology, just to point something out.

This forum is for discussion of questions with non-Christians. There are some areas of theology in which different Christians may believe differently.
In these cases, we would ask Christians to refrain from debating the matter here. You may point out that there is a differing viewpoint, but please do not use this forum to debate with other Christians. If Christians wish to discuss various doctrines with other Christians, they should do so in the Theology forums.

^ Forum rules.

 

[VDMA]

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[melody123]

I believe that we *all* were born with the CAPACITY to sin, and not with Adam and Eve's sin. If any of us would have been in the garden instead, we would have made the same choice. And so we pay... because we sin on our own -- we make our own wrong decisions, and suffer with the consequences.

God instructed Adam, and He wasn't speaking about physical death. He was talking about spiritual death. Once both (A&E) sinned by eating from the tree of life, they became spiritually separated from God's friendship/fellowship. They were no longer allowed to have that same relationship with God. Their sin separated them from God's fellowship. They died spiritually.

Each of us chooses to sin. Those sins pave our way to enter hell. By not making the *choice* to rely on the death of Jesus Christ ALONE as total payment for all our sins, we are choosing hell. We will not be able to blame Adam, Eve, or anyone else for our choice. It's ours alone to make.

Either we choose to trust that Jesus paid for them all, or we choose to try to earn our own way through good behavior. However, God is disgusted with any righteous deeds we try to do to earn our way to heaven. He says,

"For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;" (Isaiah 64:6a)

Titus 3:5a. He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy,

Ephesians 2:8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9. not as a result of works, that no one should boast.


And here is something to think about.. If we could can earn our own way to heaven, why did Jesus bother to die? It's either Jesus ... or nothing. What can weu possibly do that would please God more than the death of His perfect Son? Only pride prevents us from choosing correctly. I think therein lies the answer...

 

[Hammster]

ADMIN HAT ON


From the SoP:

This forum is for discussion of questions with non-Christians. There are some areas of theology in which different Christians may believe differently. In these cases, we would ask Christians to refrain from debating the matter here. You may point out that there is a differing viewpoint, but please do not use this forum to debate with other Christians.

ADMIN HAT OFF

 

[VDMA]

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[ebia]

Why should all humans be apart from God by default? Shouldn't everyone get the same opportunity Adam/Eve did? That is, the pleasant and worry free life that God initially destined all mankind to have in Eden? And then, from there, they can choose whether or not they want to be with God? Why didn't I have a choice like them? Why is it that billions are forced to be a part of a rebellion that only two people started? Is this fair?

That's why God has set about putting things right.

But once a family is disfunctional it's a big job to even halt the decline, let alone enable generations to gradually climb out of that disfunction.

 

[oi_antz]

Hi Alex, it is good that you are asking these questions. Some people don't really ask these questions though, even if they make out that they do. For instance, someone who wants to believe in Christianity might ask this question so that they have a suitable answer to give if someone is to ask the same question of them. Then someone who doesn't want to believe in Christianity might ask this question to justify their lack of understanding which means they don't have to accept it. So keep that in mind as you reflect on what is motivating your question. I will try to explain the situation a bit for you in the way that I understand it, then you can see why I seem to be coming at you from a different perspective than you are expecting. Hopefully you will feel a bit more comfortable sharing your thoughts with me then, because I would like that.

So some back story is a necessary foundation to establish. I will be brief.

According to the story, Adam and Eve did not know good and evil in the first place. This doesn't mean that they did not do good and evil, or that they didn't like good and dislike evil. What it means is that they didn't have the knowledge of it, which we know is the result of gathering and assessing information. So to gain knowledge of good and evil, they would have to gather information about it and assess it. This means that they would have to do good things and they would have to do evil things, and they would need to reflect on what they had done and learn how to master it. This ties in well with a metaphorical fruit that some people view it as, but not so well with a physical fruit that some people view it as. I view it as both, btw. So to see this happen at the precise moment that they ate of a fruit of a given tree, you can choose to see it in two ways, maybe more. First, that the fruit was poisonous and caused their thinking to change. The second, that they chose to distrust what they believed to be true (which is that the fruit would kill them), and in doing so and finding that they didn't die from the fruit, gave rise to doubt. How much more could they trust that what they thought was right actually was right, and in this way cause them to go about trying good and trying evil and assessing the results of their actions. I see it the latter way, btw, not that the fruit was poisonous.

If you don't understand or accept that, please explain why. Meanwhile here is my reaction to your questions:

Why should all humans be apart from God by default?

This is not actually correct. God is accessible to everyone, everywhere, all the time. Are you asking why God is not walking earth with us, in a human body?

Shouldn't everyone get the same opportunity Adam/Eve did? That is, the pleasant and worry free life that God initially destined all mankind to have in Eden?

You are asking me for my judgement, but I don't have the right to make that judgement. At the heart of it, you have a complaint. There is something about this life that upsets you, and you think that it isn't fair. You could be right, but that doesn't mean that your idea is right either.

Whenever you make a decision, you have to choose to forsake one choice for another. There is rarely a time when you can have everything you want.

And then, from there, they can choose whether or not they want to be with God?

We didn't lose that opportunity, in fact it only became more immediate.

Why didn't I have a choice like them?

You do, actually.

Why is it that billions are forced to be a part of a rebellion that only two people started? Is this fair?

Most people aren't forced to rebel, they are convinced. For whatever reason they choose, God is not what they desire.

Do you understand why you don't desire God?

 

[aiki]

That's why God has set about putting things right.

But once a family is disfunctional it's a big job to even halt the decline, let alone enable generations to gradually climb out of that disfunction.

Is there really anything that is truly a "big job" for the supremely powerful Creator of the Universe? He spoke the universe into being. Is human dysfunctional really such an uphill battle for a God who can do such a thing? I don't see how...

Selah.

 

[ebia]

Is there really anything that is truly a "big job" for the supremely powerful Creator of the Universe? He spoke the universe into being. Is human dysfunctional really such an uphill battle for a God who can do such a thing? I don't see how... Selah.

If you are determined to do with without destroying us and without taking away what it is that makes us human, then yes - think it is.

There is a quick, easy fix. The Noah story deals with that.

 

[alexiscurious]

This is not actually correct. God is accessible to everyone, everywhere, all the time. Are you asking why God is not walking earth with us, in a human body?

Unfortunately it is correct. My question has nothing to do with whether he is accessible or not. It has to do with why all humans are initially born separated from God. In order for God to even be "accessible" as you say one has to find reconciliation and repent (bridging the initial separation from God).

You are asking me for my judgement, but I don't have the right to make that judgement. At the heart of it, you have a complaint. There is something about this life that upsets you, and you think that it isn't fair. You could be right, but that doesn't mean that your idea is right either.

I don't think being held accountable for what has happened before my existence is fair. And yes I'm right.

We didn't lose that opportunity, in fact it only became more immediate.

Yes we did.

You do, actually.

Most people aren't forced to rebel, they are convinced. For whatever reason they choose, God is not what they desire.

No it looks like I was forced to rebel. The title of the group is called "sinners" and it looks like God gave us all a free pass into it when really only two people in specific deserve to be there.

 

[oi_antz]

Unfortunately it is correct. My question has nothing to do with whether he is accessible or not. It has to do with why all humans are initially born separated from God. In order for God to even be "accessible" as you say one has to find reconciliation and repent (bridging the initial separation from God).

Reconciliation because of what? And repent from what? I am of the opinion that reconciliation means we need to be reconciled to God, which means at some point we have become departed from Him. I don't believe that happens without our action.

Can you look at your past and identify the first moment in time that you chose to not believe in God? You should look at what you were considering and desiring when you made that decision.

You cannot repent from something that you are not doing.

I don't think being held accountable for what has happened before my existence is fair. And yes I'm right.

I do not think the dogma you believe is correct. I am not going to flog a dead horse though, let me know if you are willing to discuss it and I will think more about it for you.

Yes we did.

Why do you believe this?

No it looks like I was forced to rebel. The title of the group is called "sinners" and it looks like God gave us all a free pass into it when really only two people in specific deserve to be there.

You cannot be a sinner unless you choose to do sin. Have you thought about what causes something to be deemed sin, and why we choose to do it? Do you understand it?

 

[South Bound]

Why should all humans be apart from God by default?

For the same reason oil and water are apart: they have different natures and different properties that cannot be mixed.

God is Holy, Righteous, and Just. We are sinful and wretched. The two cannot be reconciled.

That's why the Bible says our old nature must be crucified with Christ and we must receive a new nature.

Why didn't I have a choice like them?

You do have a choice. Go ahead and choose not to sin.

Why is it that billions are forced to be a part of a rebellion that only two people started? Is this fair?

Sinners aren't forced to sin. They do it willingly and enthusiastically.