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Why should homosexuality be a sin?

intricatic

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On the contrary, I think it makes God out to be arbitrary (which He isn't), and it shows one mindedness with doctrine but NOT the truth.

It also shows a consistent amount of ....

amount of.....

babbling !!!


:D
So here's a question for you. Did God give Laws simply for the sake of giving Laws in the OT, or consequently, did Moses simply make up the terms of the first covenant on his own?

If the answer to either of these questions is yes, then your point is valid.

If your answer is no, why did God give us those Laws to begin with?

Let me remind you of Acts 11 again, just to elaborate...

1The apostles and the brothers throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God. 2So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcised believers criticized him 3and said, "You went into the house of uncircumcised men and ate with them." 4Peter began and explained everything to them precisely as it had happened: 5"I was in the city of Joppa praying, and in a trance I saw a vision. I saw something like a large sheet being let down from heaven by its four corners, and it came down to where I was. 6I looked into it and saw four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, reptiles, and birds of the air. 7Then I heard a voice telling me, 'Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.'
8"I replied, 'Surely not, Lord! Nothing impure or unclean has ever entered my mouth.'
9"The voice spoke from heaven a second time, 'Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.' 10This happened three times, and then it was all pulled up to heaven again.
11"Right then three men who had been sent to me from Caesarea stopped at the house where I was staying. 12The Spirit told me to have no hesitation about going with them. These six brothers also went with me, and we entered the man's house. 13He told us how he had seen an angel appear in his house and say, 'Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. 14He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.'
15"As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. 16Then I remembered what the Lord had said: 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17So if God gave them the same gift as he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?"
18When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life."
(Acts 11)
Question: What does food represent in the dietary regulations of the Levitical Law?

Now, a more commonly known one;

1Every high priest is selected from among men and is appointed to represent them in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness. 3This is why he has to offer sacrifices for his own sins, as well as for the sins of the people. 4No one takes this honor upon himself; he must be called by God, just as Aaron was. 5So Christ also did not take upon himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him,
"You are my Son;
today I have become your Father." 6And he says in another place,
"You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek."
7During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
(Hebrews 5)
What did the Levitical system of priesthood represent in the Levitical code?

Yet another one...

1The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 5Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
"Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
6with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
7Then I said, 'Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, O God.' " 8First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). 9Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

(Hebrews 10)
What did sacrifice represent in the Levitical code?

Finally, to the last question. Are any of the Levitical laws given for no reason at all? If so, why did God give them to His people? :scratch:
 
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Gusoceros

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You position is not God's position, you do not know God's position on anything, and you are the worst kind of liar if you claim you do.

You will understand when I dismiss this out of hand- nothing personal, however I do believe that God gave us His Word, so we could read it, and understand it. This topic is not a difficult one to understand- and I have seen the various arguments that are sin-apologist in nature on this topic. They just dont stand up to scrutiny. The Bible remains clear on the subject of the homosexual act being an abomination and a sin.

You think you know what God's position is, from a Book written by men, not by God, but men.

You will understand when I dismiss this out of hand- the Bible stands as the Holy Inspired Word of God. Men being used by God to write it, do not mean it is no longer Holy and Inspired, and of God.

To claim that you know God's position from that when one man can read it and get a completely different opinion, is disgusting and shameful, and makes you look like an irrational lunitic to any sane person.

It is my position that misrepresenting scripture to mean exactly the opposite, would more likely fall in the category you suggest.

I'm sorry if I come across harsh, but I'm tired of ignorant Christians telling me they got God in a bottle and He agrees with everything they happen to believe. Jesus didn't much care for those kind of peopl either.

I would rather you be accurate, than spewing invective- that does not meet scrutiny.

Because it isn't any different than heterosexuality other than the one obvious difference, and there is no reason why it should be more.

There are HUGE differences between a same sex couple, and a hetero couple. They are not remotely the same- this is by God's Design as well.

Now can you tell me why homosexuality should be a sin, without using God as a cop-out to justify your beliefs?

God IS the reason that homosexuality is a sin- because God defines what is and is not a sin.

G
 
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WalkingforHim

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You will understand when I dismiss this out of hand- nothing personal, however I do believe that God gave us His Word, so we could read it, and understand it. This topic is not a difficult one to understand- and I have seen the various arguments that are sin-apologist in nature on this topic. They just dont stand up to scrutiny. The Bible remains clear on the subject of the homosexual act being an abomination and a sin.

How can the Bible be so clear when nowhere in the original texts is there a word that mentions monogamous homosexual sex?

You will understand when I dismiss this out of hand- the Bible stands as the Holy Inspired Word of God. Men being used by God to write it, do not mean it is no longer Holy and Inspired, and of God.

Your beliefs aside, it was still written by men, just like every other holy book of every other religion.

It is my position that misrepresenting scripture to mean exactly the opposite, would more likely fall in the category you suggest.

Then you might want to stop doing it.

I would rather you be accurate, than spewing invective- that does not meet scrutiny.

I would rather you drop the appeals to authority to get out of justifying your position or backing up your arguement, and esspecially in dismissing my arguements.

There are HUGE differences between a same sex couple, and a hetero couple. They are not remotely the same- this is by God's Design as well.

Name 5 differences, then, without naming the obvious one.

God IS the reason that homosexuality is a sin- because God defines what is and is not a sin.

This is a cop-out. Did God have a reason? Is it all just arbitrary?

Course then again, the Bible doesn't even condemn monogamous homosexuals, so I guess it isn't much of an issue.
 
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Gusoceros

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I would rather you drop the appeals to authority to get out of justifying your position or backing up your arguement, and esspecially in dismissing my arguements.

It is the nature of God, that He IS the AUTHORITY. Appeals to Authority are not always wrong when you are dealing with God.

G
 
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NHB_MMA

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That's not the question but at any rate...

I cannot logically conceive any reason for homosexuality to be a sin. I can see why it might have been considered a bad thing in light of an evolutionary ideology but that's about it.

Well, should there be any sexual sin at all then?
 
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Gusoceros

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Name 5 differences, then, without naming the obvious one.

Silly conditions aside- I will deal with the differences between the 2 couples from the Law of (Human) Nature:

The 2 unions are fundamentally and functionally different- Let us examine the differences between marriage and same sex union:

The inherant right we are discussing regarding same sex unions, is the right of cohabitation. That right is an inherant right from Liberty- I support this right. Lets say it again: I support the right of same sex couples to live together, as long as they both shall live.

The right of marriage, is a natural right, and is the cornerstone of society- by natural design. It is 1) the purest model of government through the nuclear family, 2) it is the model of education for society, 3) it is the model of procreation for our race, 4) it is the model for love and happiness through natural complementing attributes, and is 5) the model for lifelong social fulfillment.

Let us examine each step and contrast it with same sex marriage so we can see the difference.

1) It is the purest model of government through the structure of the nuclear family. This structure highlights the natural design of Mom and Dad, and the children- each designed specifically for different but necessary purposes inside the nuclear family, for efficient governance. It is also noteworthy, that fidelity is also a characteristic in this model of governance- in that the nuclear family model is built around the same Mom and Dad remaining in the position of authority while raising the family. The natural model is about long term, committed unions of man and woman- to carry out this model of natural governance on the nuclear family. This model is not duplicated naturally by same sex couples- indeed it is impossible for them to create their own nuclear family, by design. The natural design for the family unit, is first a mother and a father- through which the nuclear family model begins. There is a huge difference in the design of the 2 kinds of couples- this points us in the direction of the natural right of marriage- that it is by design, beginning with a man and a woman. Is this bigoted, or a statement of design? You be the judge.

2) It is the model for education in our society. The natural design is that the parents would raise their children- i.e. educate them in life. Parents have a responsibility to educate their children. The natural model follows that children come from and are governed by a man and a woman – husband and wife-. It is easy to see that the natural right of marriage stems from this natural design, of governance, and education, of our race. Same sex couples can not have children naturally, and this is by design. Thus, we see the natural model stands against same sex couples in the area of marriage rights, and their natural ability to educate their children. Rather, the same sex couple has the right of cohabitation- with nature standing against the same sex union in the marriage capacity- in fact, it is a physical impossibility. Is this bigoted, or a statement of design? You be the judge.

3) It is the model for the procreation of our race. The natural right and design of marriage from the Law of Nature, shows us that our race is procreated through this union. Our race and society itself exists because of this union and the natural design of procreation. While it is true, that any 2 members of the opposite sex can procreate- there are 2 things about this that need to be noted 1) they are still the opposite sex, and 2) as was noted in the Model of Government breakout of the Law of Nature- the family model follows the committed long term relationship of husband and wife in marriage- not a one night stand or a fling of convenience. So we see from the natural design, that our race is procreated through long term commitments of a man to a woman, and that same sex couples can not do this, by design. Is this bigoted, or a statement of design? You be the judge.

4) It is the model for love and happiness through natural complementing attributes. While it is true, that we as humans can love each other in many ways- brother to brother, parents to children, lover to lover- we can note the natural design for love and happiness through scrutiny of the natural model. Men and women complement each other in their differences- mentally, physically, and spiritually. The kind of union that is set aside as marriage in the above examples lends itself to a life of love and happiness through the fulfillment of the natural model- man and a woman, raising a nuclear family. It is also true that couples can be in love and feel fulfilled without raising a family- yet the natural model still offers this specific experience of love, happiness, and fulfillment by design to a man and woman in marriage. It is true that there are exceptions to happy families, and some families break apart- the design and fulfillment of raising a healthy family by a man and a woman bound through commitment and fidelity, is only available to a man and a woman, naturally. The Law of Nature, stands against same sex couples from being able to partake of this fulfillment in the natural, and only by design.

5) It is the model for lifelong social fulfillment. It is the natural design of complementing attributes between men and women that brings specific areas of fulfillment to light. Only a man and woman, through the above points in the natural model can create a family legacy and their own family community. It is through the nuclear procreation of our race that parents eventually become grandparents and great grandparents- making possible natural lifelong social fulfillment in addition to a lifetime of friends and other standard social acquaintances. Additionally, a lifetime spent with a complementary mate makes for another social fulfillment that is available only by natural design- as men and women complement each other physically, mentally, and spiritually. While same sex couples can live their lifetime together- they can not create a lifelong social fulfillment- a legacy of family, that the natural model creates by design. Is this bigoted, or a statement of design? You be the judge.


What we can see from the breakout above is that there is a vast difference between the types of unions that we are arguing here. It is often the case, that people argue that same sex couples are not getting equal rights- which is not true. The breakout above, clearly demonstrates that the 2 kinds of unions- marriage, or same sex union- are completely, and entirely different. It shows that marriage, is a natural right, and by design carries great benefit to society as a whole- in fact it is the foundation of society. Where when we look at same sex unions- we find that they are not even remotely close to the same thing.

So, if they are not the same thing, what are we to do about it? Well, the definition of marriage and the natural right to marriage do not change. Homosexuals, are still free to enter into marriage (characterized by the enumerated 5 characteristics as noted above), but if this is not what they want out of life, not entering into such a union is a choice. We can also see that entering into the DIFFERENT kind of union- same sex union- carries with it an entirely different set of social characteristics, and benefits to society- namely that it is not marriage, nor does it carry the same benefits.

We have discussed that married people do not have the right to get special benefits under the law, this is a true statement. In the same vein, if benefits are already offered for people to be married- then those that are pushing to get the same benefits for the same model- should be required to demonstrate that they are equal, and thus due the same benefits. Since we have already destroyed the assertion that same sex unions are the same thing as marriage unions in terms of how they benefit society, we can safely move to the position that the argument of equal representation under the law, is fulfilled by the fact that we are not talking about the same thing to begin with.

Since we are not talking about the same kind of union here- we now need to establish what is this second union? Is there a right involved here? Well, yes there is, and that is the right of cohabitation- derived from Liberty- in that as free people, we are allowed to live our lives freely, so long as we are not infringing on another’s right. Does this include the right to be given the same benefits that are not earned through marriage? No, it does not- we have demonstrated the striking differences between the 2 unions, and it is a fact- that same sex unions do not remotely come close to the same arrangement as marriage does, to society.

This leaves us in a quandary then- what to do with those that are screaming for the benefits applied to the marriage license, to now be applied to civil unions- a completely different kind of union than marriage? In my estimation- one would need to prove that this right first exists- this new right, that is not characterized as the natural right of marriage- but rather on 2 people who want to live together. The marriage benefits become a detriment to society when they are applied to same sex couples- because there is no return on investment to society- the benefits are now – unfounded.

So- in my estimation- it is either do away with the marriage benefits, or fight same sex marriage/civil unions as the lie they are. I believe it is a matter of principle to fight the lie either way, and a matter of precedent to fight for the benefits. The benefactor of marriage benefits is society- this battle is truly, a lose lose situation- by fighting it, those ignorant of marriage and natural rights will rise up against you, or you give up the benefits to marriage- and society loses. Or worse- same sex marriage/civil unions win the day, and redefine what marriage is, create a new right that doesn’t exist, and get paid for something they can never provide.

G
 
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Gusoceros

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IamAdopted

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How can the Bible be so clear when nowhere in the original texts is there a word that mentions monogamous homosexual sex?



Your beliefs aside, it was still written by men, just like every other holy book of every other religion.



Then you might want to stop doing it.



I would rather you drop the appeals to authority to get out of justifying your position or backing up your arguement, and esspecially in dismissing my arguements.



Name 5 differences, then, without naming the obvious one.



This is a cop-out. Did God have a reason? Is it all just arbitrary?

Course then again, the Bible doesn't even condemn monogamous homosexuals, so I guess it isn't much of an issue.
GO back and read what God constitutes as marriage in Genesis.. In the very beginning God made them Male and Female. this was before sin entered into men. So if God made this as becoming on flesh with male and female where did this other come into being? Not from God.. For it was not even talked about until sin entered in..You can say the bible was written by men but it was not from the wisdom of men that is was written. IT was from God Himself through the Holy Spirit and SPeaking to these men. THerefore every word in the Bible is yea and Amen. God condemns homosexuality In the patriarchs (Genesis 19:1-28) In the Law of Moses (Leviticus 18:22; 20:13) In the Prophets (Ezekiel 16:46-50) In the New Testament (Romans 1:18-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Jude 7-8) Why does God condemn homosexuality? Because it overturns God’s fundamental design for human relationships—a design that pictures the complementary relationship between a man and a woman (Genesis 2:18-25; Matthew 19:4-6; Ephesians 5:22-33).
Why, then, have homosexual interpretations of Scripture been so successful at persuading so many? Simple: people want to be convinced. Since the Bible is so clear about the issue, sinners have had to defy reason and embrace error to quiet their accusing consciences (Romans 2:14-16). As Jesus said, “Men loved the darkness rather than the Light, [because] their deeds were evil” (John 3:19-20). Never is this spoken of with blessing but with cursing.
 
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WalkingforHim

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It doesnt have to- homosexual sex is a sin by itself.

The Bible doesn't say that. You need to learn what the words describing homosexuality in the Bible really mean, because you obviously don't know now.

Does God need a reason that you will understand?

That wasn't even close to what I was asking, now will you answer the question?

It is the nature of God, that He IS the AUTHORITY. Appeals to Authority are not always wrong when you are dealing with God.

It is always wrong, especially when it's to God, for the simple fact of the matter is you only think you know God's will. You don't speak for God, and you sure as hell can't prove your claims with any type of evidence, so it is wrong, and it stiffles any attempt at an intelligent debate, which is exactly why it is a cop-out.
 
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Gusoceros

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1) The Bible doesn't say that. You need to learn what the words describing homosexuality in the Bible really mean, because you obviously don't know now.

2) It is always wrong, especially when it's to God, for the simple fact of the matter is you only think you know God's will. You don't speak for God, and you sure as hell can't prove your claims with any type of evidence, so it is wrong, and it stiffles any attempt at an intelligent debate, which is exactly why it is a cop-out.

1) Iamadopted laid out the verses quite nicely, as to what the Bible has to say about the homosexual act. I do grow weary of this argument- either provide some proof for your claims, or consider your argument dismissed.

2) To the contrary- if God isnt the Final Authority, then who is? Are you suggesting to me, that my interpretation of the Bible is wrong- emphatically so- because I dont speak for God and cant have it right- ... but you do? And Im wrong on this basis? It sure looks like you are saying this, all the while not providing any proof or logical positioning beyond *you are wrong*.

Its time to put up.

G
 
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davedjy

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The question is not what should be but rather we must ask what is and homosexuality is most definitely a sin.
This coming from the same guy that says homosexual attraction is a sin...
 
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davedjy

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What does Campolo say about the homosexual act?
He believes it's a sin, but he STILL supports Gay marriage and gay rights! he says that it's more morally acceptable for them to be in monogamous relationships.

He also takes his wife, Peggy around w/him everywhere and she has the opposite opinion, and he even says he is caving in more and more to her understandings, since they are so logical, and are backed w/historical context!
 
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Gusoceros

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He believes it's a sin, but he STILL supports Gay marriage and gay rights! he says that it's more morally acceptable for them to be in monogamous relationships.

He also takes his wife, Peggy around w/him everywhere and she has the opposite opinion, and he even says he is caving in more and more to her understandings, since they are so logical, and are backed w/historical context!

The point where Campolo makes a political and social decision is where he and I part ways. We agree that the act is a sin- and I am not a liberal politically- I happen to think that it is not the government's job to create special rights for people- rather, their job is to protect rights.

I dont really care what his wife has to say on this topic- she is likely a nice person and all.

G
 
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davedjy

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The point where Campolo makes a political and social decision is where he and I part ways. We agree that the act is a sin- and I am not a liberal politically- I happen to think that it is not the government's job to create special rights for people- rather, their job is to protect rights.

I dont really care what his wife has to say on this topic- she is likely a nice person and all.

G
Her opinion isn't any less credible, and he even mentions that, since she is aware of the historical context.

The bottom line is the way God sees it, not the way you or anyone else see it, or even how I see it...
 
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BigChrisfilm

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This is a question that I've been wanting the religious right to answer for a while:

Why should homosexuality be a sin?

NOTE: This is not a debate on whether homosexuality is or is not a sin, this is a discussion on why it ought or ought not be a sin. All comments are welcome.
1. This is not up for a vote. We do not get to vote on what is and isn't sin.

2. It is a sin because God said so.
 
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Gusoceros

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Her opinion isn't any less credible, and he even mentions that, since she is aware of the historical context.

The bottom line is the way God sees it, not the way you or anyone else see it, or even how I see it...

I disagree on her opinion.

I agree that what matters is if our view aligns with God. That is why we have the Bible- so we can understand God's position.

G
 
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