Why should christians trust evolutionists?

[sfs]

Improper analogy.

Why?

 

[juvenissun]

I don't think it's a matter of trusting evolutionists. I think it's a matter of giving respect to science. If someone accepts the light in their computer room turns on because of the science behind electricity. If they accept their computer runs, not because of angels inside, but because of Intel and electricity, then why is it contrary to one's faith to respect that the earth and all upon it have changed through the passage of million upon millions of years?


I don't see creationism being in conflict with evolution at all.
Rather I think it arrogant and even a bit of hubris to think, of all that has changed even in the course of human development, from the fossil record that gives us the remains of the earliest bipeds like Ardipithecus ramidus unto homo sapien sapien, that all that is because God, power of the universe infinitum, creator of all that is, was or shall be, must take time out of his busy schedule and wiggle a finger and make things change by his will here on earth.

Rather than imagine it possible that a creator, who is omniscient, would create something that could sustain itself and adapt as needed within the environment of his making, due to the wonder he implanted within it so as to survive across the eons.
That in so doing, evidence of his existence would be seen in the fossil record by those who are here now to see it and to realize in the research, how far they've come since the beginning.

If one first believes all things are of God, as I see it, evolution/change then, can not be anything but the machinations of God insuring all he created works as planned.

After all, if one accepts there is an intelligent designer, how then is the designs mechanism, that can be called evolution, is so easily dismissed? Especially when the fossil records stand as testament what was then, is not the same as now.

Life's too short to argue goddidit! Without holding respect for how that would be accomplished.

Fossils are innocent. They don't do anything. It is OK for an evolutionist (or a creationist) to say human skeleton is very similar to chimps skeleton. Bring the fossils back to life (what is that ape first "evolved" away from itself?), then you definitely don't want human to be merely "similar" to a chimp.

Science is science, and human is human. The study of human is much much more than the study of science.

 

[juvenissun]

Why?

Mass is not a life.

 

[miamited]

hi christopher,

Well, I'm always ready to jump into the fray regarding what I believe about evolution and the creation itself.

I too, used to believe as you have. That this realm of stars and planets and other heavenly bodies was billions and billions of years old. That man somehow evolved from some other life form. However, about 15 years ago I was born again. I began to realize that when Jesus said, "believe in God, believe also in me." That whether or not we really believe in God begins with the creation. God has made a claim. He has caused His Holy Spirit to write to us through the pens of men an account of how, why and when He created this realm. I don't think God is much impressed that we might acquiesce that there is a God, but is more interested that we understand that He is that God that is described and explained to us in His written word. That the entire reason we exist is that at some point in His time, He chose to create another order of creature and realm in which that creature might live, just as He once did when He created the angelic realm.

Every single body in the physical universe in which we exist is there because God knows what must exist and how it must be made in order to endure forever as a 'home', a place where this creature of flesh that He was going to make to serve and to love Him, just as the angels do, could exist. He created the earth and He covered it with an atmosphere containing oxygen and placed upon the earth water and plants and animals all for man's benefit.

Now, for me, God has revealed how He created all of this realm. He spoke it into existence. For me, God has revealed how long it took Him to create this entire new realm of existence where mankind would live. Six days and He knew then that a time would come that men weren't going to be satisfied with that. He knew that men would always be searching for answers apart from Him as to how everything that we see that makes up this realm was created or came to be. He knew that the days would come when men would not put up with sound doctrine, but instead fill their itching ears with myths and fables, which is what 'scientific' knowledge is, if God did tell us the truth. So, when He caused the Holy Spirit to write, 'and there was the first day', He had the Holy Spirit to write, 'and there was morning and evening the first day'.

He knew that the word 'yom' that was used to mean 'day' could also mean some other period of time than a rotation of the earth upon it's axis. So He further defined, so that we would understand that He meant a period of time that we still today define as one rotation of the earth upon it's axis, each day in His account as being the completion of an evening and a morning. Still today, a rougly 24 hour day, and only that period of time, is defined as an evening and a morning.

Then God caused His Holy Spirit to write, 'and God formed from the earth the first man, Adam'. So, the account of God is that in six evenings and mornings He created all of this realm of existence and culminated the six evenings and morning with the creation of the first man. Then, God caused His Holy Spirit to write down the geneologies of the descendents of Adam and then the descendents of Noah and then the descendents of Abraham. It is a very simple mathematical problem to add the years of these geneologies and the days recorded in the books of the judges and the kings to arrive at a very, very close (within a couple of hundred years) how old this creation that God made for man was when Jesus came to us. Of course, the rest is very simple as the gregorian calandar is based on the time of Jesus. So, whatever total we get for the old covenant account of years, we merely add to whatever year it is by our calandar. Simple!

Now, the problem comes as man works to answer all the questions and explain the miracle of the creation based on the evidence of the created. And yes, I can tell you that the explanations of men seem so right and convincing, but the question still stands, "Will we believe God or man?" At least 3 times in all of the Scriptures, the Holy Spirit caused to be written that God created all things in six days. Friend, by the time Moses wrote the Torah under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, men knew what a day was. Moses had already lived more than 29,000 of them.

I applaud your search for the truth and I fully believe that it is this trust that all that God revealed to mankind through His Holy Spirit and the written word is the beginning of knowledge and wisdom.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[good brother]

Amen, Ted. Amen.

GB

 

[Christopher Fleming]

Thank you Ted, for that impassioned defense of Creation. I find it strange that most of the fellow catholics I know do not take this position, even though this is what all catholics believed for nearly 2000 years. It is interesting that in US many protestants remain undeterred by secular evolutionism, whereas the catholics have all but given in.

I know that my outlook is a "minority" one in the Catholic Church, as I have been told on this thread. It doesn´t bother me that much, but it makes me think. The only group of catholics who I see are staunchly anti-evolution are the traditionalists. I myself am a member of the Third Order of the Society of St. Pius X. I have become used to being an outsider, part of a crazy minority.

I just want to be in the Truth.

 

[Incariol]

Hello,

I´m getting interested in this topic at the moment. Since all the threads on the "origins" sub-forum seem to have drifted away from the issue, or else are dead, I decided to start another one.

My reason for being interested in examining the claims of creationists, who up till recently I never would have taken seriously, is that I have come to distrust evolutionists. It is not so much a scientific problem, as a theological problem. I have witnessed darwinian evolution used as an argument in favour of all sorts of moral abominations; adultery, homosexuality, abortion, eugenics, euthenasia, etc. Looking at the history of philosophy, seeing where nazism and Planned Parenthood came from, it is clear to me that they owe much to the theory of evolution. Perhaps without it their organizations would never have got off the ground, because it gave them "scientific" credibility.

I do not want to become paranoid, thinking that everyone is trying to deceive us. However, for me as a catholic, conspiracy theory is a dogma of the faith. The original conspiracy is that of Satan, who has been plotting the ruin of souls and seducing the world since the beginning of mankind. So I see it as logical that he uses everything at his disposal. If evolution does the trick, why wouldn´t he want evolution in all the classrooms around the world, pushing belief in the Word of God into ever smaller circles?

I also observe that ALL atheists use evolution as an argument against christianity. Why is this? If it made no difference, why would atheists think it hurts christian belief to argue darwin´s theory? I have come to think that if you take God out of the creation equasion, you are left with nothing but random nothingness. This is exactly what atheists believe in; chance, but no intelligence.

Lately I have little trust in what is called the "scientific community". I am VERY sceptical about the GLobal Warming hype. I think it is all a huge lie, designed firstly to get money out of the taxpayer, and secondly to exert greater governmental control over nations, in preparation for a New World Order. Anyway, this is just to say that my scepticism towards scientists, no matter how well known or prestigious, allows me to entertain the possibility that evolution may be another big scam, put into circulation and perpetuated by the masons who rule in the shadow, in order to gradually erode belief in Jesus Christ. Before you all call me a conspiracy freak, please note that I am not asserting this categorically. I am simply saying that I consider it a POSSIBILITY. I have no way of proving it, and therefore cannot assert it.

Finally, although perhaps this will mean little to protestants, all the Fathers of the Church believed in a creation ex nihilo (out of nothing). The Council of Trent teaches that we should never contradict the UNANIMOUS teaching of the Fathers on any subject pertaining to Revelation. St. Augustine had doubts about the exact meaning of the 6 days, but he certainly never implied that God used pre-existing material to make the Earth and the animals. The theory of evolution is totally foreign to all the Church Fathers, and thus is not an acceptable interpretation of Genesis for a catholic, as far as I understand.

I would appreciate any comments, as long as they are polite and intelligent. And please do not go down the catholic-bashing road. Go to another sub-forum for that! Thank you.

1. Not trusting biology isn't the same as having an actual basis for believing Creationism.

2. Social Darwinism and associated social issues /= evolutionary theory.

3. Atheists using evolution as an argument against Christianity doesn't particularly concern me. It is only of concern to fundamentalists who have backed themselves into a corner with regards to physical reality.

4. Evolution isn't random or just chance.

5. As for your interpretation of Trent and the ECF's, how is it then that the last few Popes disagree with you on that? The RCC has generally expressed theistic evolution. Catholic Church and evolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Scanner]

SFS, you know that Juvenissun got it absolutely right with what was said, that's the reason "we" (as a society) justify and allow homosexuality and promiscuity, and all sorts of other debased actions. I once heard a homosexuality sympathizer use the fact that homosexuality is okay because some PENGUINS are and some other creatures were!

Juve's statement works, yours does not make sense.

In Christ, GB

Homosexuality sympathizers? This sounds as bad a n-word lovers... God made everyone and loves everyone, we are all to not judge others and love freely. I doubt doing the opposite if very Christ like.

 

[good brother]

Homosexuality sympathizers? This sounds as bad a n-word lovers... God made everyone and loves everyone, we are all to not judge others and love freely. I doubt doing the opposite if very Christ like.

Whoa, back that truck up right now. I am not against the person, but I will not embrace a quote unquote "lifestyle" that is outrightly and explicitly condemned in the Bible. I have gay friends, but they know that I won't accept homosexual "lifestyles", no more than I am friends with liars but will not praise the lies.

What I was saying about the homosexual sympathizer (someone who supports the condoning of the homosexual "lifestyle") was that they were using the fact that there are confused penguins out there that can't tell the difference between a penguin of the opposite sex and one of the same as reasoning why we humans should accept and embrace homosexuality. That was what I was talking about.

In Christ, GB

 

[Scanner]

Whoa, back that truck up right now. I am not against the person, but I will not embrace a quote unquote "lifestyle" that is outrightly and explicitly condemned in the Bible. I have gay friends, but they know that I won't accept homosexual "lifestyles", no more than I am friends with liars but will not praise the lies.

What I was saying about the homosexual sympathizer (someone who supports the condoning of the homosexual "lifestyle") was that they were using the fact that there are confused penguins out there that can't tell the difference between a penguin of the opposite sex and one of the same as reasoning why we humans should accept and embrace homosexuality. That was what I was talking about.

In Christ, GB

Most animals in fact take part in homosexual behaviour. It's not that they can't tell... they can tell. There are pheromones that animals give off that other animals can smell more easily than we can. Most animals aren't exclusively homosexual like penguins can be. Most take part in same-sex activity and continue to have offspring. We're not animals though.

I'm gay. I can't change that and have lived most of my life believing I'm living my life to go to hell. In the bible many things are condemned equally as homosexuality... but for some reason those don't stick out as much or get much attention since it'd be hard for most Christians to follow through. Not being gay though is quite easy for most Christians since such a small percentage of people are even gay to begin with. The condemning of gays is also questionable when we look to hebrew and greek, in some parts gays where being condemned god also grouped women and men in heterosexuality relationships in the same category.

I understand you say you're not against the person and against the sin but when what you consider a sin is an essential part of that persons life you are also against that person. In my opinion.

 

[miamited]

hi cf,

Well, you said you didn't want to get into the catholic bashing and I'm all for that so I hope that this isn't taken as bashing, merely explaining what I believe the truth to be according to the Scriptures, but...

The catholic organization is working hard to be palatable and adoptive and accepting of all religious beliefs. Somehow, I don't see Paul's message to the Ephesians concerning their worship of Artemis as following or teaching that gameplan. When Paul wrote about all those who worship birds and beast and men, the created things rather than the Creator, I really don't think he was promoting that all religions are the way to God based on the culture or practices of the various people of various cities, countries and areas.

Allah is not God, neither the great buddha or the many other pantheon of dieties lifted up by various cultures or people. The salvation that comes from the Creator of mankind comes only by the way He has provided and that is His Son, Jesus. It is not an American or European idea! Faith in Jesus was actually first preached in the middle east. Amazing! Huh? It started in Israel on the day of Pentecost and then through all the Jews from every nation that heard and believed on that day and the missionary journeys of Paul, Peter, et.al. the message of God's salvation made available to mankind through the suffering sacrifice of His Son went from there to Europe, Asia, and finally to the north and south american continents.

(back on subject)
But don't worry that it is just a problem within the catholic organization. There are actually quite a few, as can be attested by just browsing through the origins threads on this forum, members of various denominations that are buying into the old earth evolutionary model. After all, science has proven... LOL!

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[miamited]

hi scanner,

You should look over Chuck Missler's Romans teaching. I think he explains it quite well.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[artybloke]

What about respecting the Word of God at what IT says?

As far as I know, Jesus (the only Word of God the Bible mentions) never talked about evolution or creation.

And there is more than one way of reading the Bible. One can start, for instance, by recognising metaphorical language (which is what the whole of the creation accounts are written in) when one sees it. St Augustine had no problem with reading it metaphorically, I don't see why you should find it so difficult.

 

[good brother]

Most animals in fact take part in homosexual behaviour. It's not that they can't tell... they can tell. There are pheromones that animals give off that other animals can smell more easily than we can. Most animals aren't exclusively homosexual like penguins can be. Most take part in same-sex activity and continue to have offspring. We're not animals though.

I'm gay. I can't change that and have lived most of my life believing I'm living my life to go to hell. In the bible many things are condemned equally as homosexuality... but for some reason those don't stick out as much or get much attention since it'd be hard for most Christians to follow through. Not being gay though is quite easy for most Christians since such a small percentage of people are even gay to begin with. The condemning of gays is also questionable when we look to hebrew and greek, in some parts gays where being condemned god also grouped women and men in heterosexuality relationships in the same category.

I understand you say you're not against the person and against the sin but when what you consider a sin is an essential part of that persons life you are also against that person. In my opinion.

I understand, you're gay. I'm not. I am a liar, a cheat, a thief, dishonoring of my parents, and a several other sins. The fact is we are both sinners in need of a Savior or we will go to Hell when we die. The different sins (gay, lying, cheating, stealing, dishonoring) are all still sin and we MUST turn from them and accept Jesus Christ. I really don't care what color a person is, we are all sinners and we all need the forgiveness of sins in Christ Jesus.

Now, Jesus did not die for us to continue to sin and to be identified in and by that sin, no, He died so that we might be FREED from that sin.

In Christ, GB

 

[good brother]

As far as I know, Jesus (the only Word of God the Bible mentions) never talked about evolution or creation.

The first couple of chapters in the Bible talk about creation (among other parts of the Bible too).

And there is more than one way of reading the Bible. One can start, for instance, by recognising metaphorical language (which is what the whole of the creation accounts are written in) when one sees it. St Augustine had no problem with reading it metaphorically, I don't see why you should find it so difficult.

Metaphorical language? Like "evening and morning", "the ___ day", or in Exodus when God specifically says that He made everything in six days and rested on the seventh and therefore we should too? That kind of metaphorical language?

Sorry, but St Augy doesn't hold the same merit as God's word does.

In Christ, GB

 

[Christopher Fleming]

hi cf,

Well, you said you didn't want to get into the catholic bashing and I'm all for that so I hope that this isn't taken as bashing, merely explaining what I believe the truth to be according to the Scriptures, but...

The catholic organization is working hard to be palatable and adoptive and accepting of all religious beliefs. Somehow, I don't see Paul's message to the Ephesians concerning their worship of Artemis as following or teaching that gameplan. When Paul wrote about all those who worship birds and beast and men, the created things rather than the Creator, I really don't think he was promoting that all religions are the way to God based on the culture or practices of the various people of various cities, countries and areas.

Allah is not God, neither the great buddha or the many other pantheon of dieties lifted up by various cultures or people. The salvation that comes from the Creator of mankind comes only by the way He has provided and that is His Son, Jesus. It is not an American or European idea! Faith in Jesus was actually first preached in the middle east. Amazing! Huh? It started in Israel on the day of Pentecost and then through all the Jews from every nation that heard and believed on that day and the missionary journeys of Paul, Peter, et.al. the message of God's salvation made available to mankind through the suffering sacrifice of His Son went from there to Europe, Asia, and finally to the north and south american continents.

(back on subject)
But don't worry that it is just a problem within the catholic organization. There are actually quite a few, as can be attested by just browsing through the origins threads on this forum, members of various denominations that are buying into the old earth evolutionary model. After all, science has proven... LOL!

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Ted, even though you are not catholic (nobody is perfect), I sense we are on a similar wavelength. I might even be able to convert you to the One True Church!

I say this because I think you are dead right in your view of the Catholic Church. In her inter-religious dialogue the Church compromises her obligation to teach the Truth of the Gospel, in favour of a new pan-religious faith, spawned from freemasonry. I will not go into this much, because it would derail the thread.

Suffice it to say that this ecumenical mindset means the Church cannot preach Creation, because it would upset too many people. There are very few priests who hold to traditional belief in a 6 day Creation, nearly all of them are what we now call traditionalists.

 

[Christopher Fleming]

1. Not trusting biology isn't the same as having an actual basis for believing Creationism.

My basis at the moment for believing Creationism would be Holy Scripture, although I have not thought it out enough yet to say I believe in it or not.

2. Social Darwinism and associated social issues /= evolutionary theory.

Our Lord tells us to judge by the fruits. Name me a single fruit of evolutionism that has been good for the salvation of souls. I could give you a list a many evils that evolution has helped to foster; not least is the diminishing faith in the Word of God.

 

[Papias]

Chris, have you considered talking to your local Catholic priest about evolution?

Also, the SSPX is probably not a good place to go if you look for the truth, as we recently saw, they are a haven for all kinds of truth denial, including the denial of the holocaust. You aren't a holocaust denier, I hope?

In Faith-

Papias

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Why should Christians trust evolutionists?

Better yet, why should Christians trust man?

Man is flesh, but God is Spirit.

The carnal mind knows not the spiritual things of God, this includes those carnally minded teachers of men who practice in the man-made church.

These are those who teach the commandments and doctrines of men, and not the Truth in the Word of God.

If you want to know the Truth, seek it from God, and not man.

Jeremiah 17:5
Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

 

[Christopher Fleming]

Chris, have you considered talking to your local Catholic priest about evolution?

I have talked about it with the priest who says the Traditional Mass where I go normally. He is not SSPX. He says he believes in intelligent design.

Also, the SSPX is probably not a good place to go if you look for the truth, as we recently saw, they are a haven for all kinds of truth denial, including the denial of the holocaust. You aren't a holocaust denier, I hope?

That is funny!! Since when is the holocaust "truth"? I would not be inclined to use this term in a theological sense for anything outside Revelation, and as far as I know, the study of History is not a matter of Divine Revelation. However, just so you can be at peace, let me inform you that I do not deny that millions of jews were murdered by the nazis. I do not know the exact figure, nor am I particularly interested in controversies about it.

In any case, I fail to see the relation with Creationism.