WHY SALVATION CAN BE LOST

Brightfame52 said:

Again, if you believe a person can be saved, then lost, by default, you believe in Salvation by works. See nothing and no one can undo what God in Christ has done to save His Elect. They are kept in Faith by the power of God 1 Pet 1:5
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

As quoted before:

Ecc 3:14
14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

You believe the opposite, you believe something can undo, take away from the work of God in Salvation !

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What does it mean to be kept? Watched, guarded by God’s power through faith?

And while we are at it please share how the rest of 1 Peter and 2 Peter fit into your theology of not being able to lose salvation. These verses in particular.

1Peter being addressed to the elect, the chosen of God. If we could not lose out on salvation then why are we being admonished to refrain our tongues from evil and to hate it because the face of our God is against those whom do evil.

1 Peter 3:10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
1 Peter 3:11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.
1 Peter 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.

And these verses where it states that the righteous are barely saved. Keep in mind 1 John 3 where it states He that does righteousness is righteous even as He (Jesus) is righteous.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1 Peter 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

1 Peter 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

And as was said; what of 2 Peter where in chapter one it says that we the elect are to give diligence to make are calling and election sure?

2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

And what of chapter 2? Where it states if after we have escaped the pollutions of this world and we are entangled therein the latter end will be worse.

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

Or mind you in chapter 3. Where we are council to be not ignorant. For the Lord is long suffering. Not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. For this long suffering that all come to repentance is the salvation of the Lord so be diligent to be found in Him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

Freth said:

Romans 6 explains in detail why obedience is necessary.

The opening statement makes it clear, we should not live in sin.

Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?​

The old way of life, and the new way of life.

Romans 6:3-7 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.​

Romans 6:8-11 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

Sin and the Christian.

Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.​

Sin and grace.

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.​

Romans 6:19-22 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
​

The wages of sin.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

Conclusion: Obedience unto righteousness is necessary for the Christian.

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Hey there Freth happy Sabbath. Nice post.
Also Obedience unto righteousness is reflexive for a Christian. For how shall we whom are dead to sin live any longer there in.
Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Romans 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Rapture Bound said:

Although BrightFame52 and myself agree that not even one genuine believer will ever lose or forfeit their salvation, our perspectives differ on some of the points that are involved in arriving at that conclusion. So with that said, here's how I would answer your questions [breaking them down point by point] :

(1) "You believe that a person is saved, absolutely saved, when they believe that Jesus is God come in the flesh who died for our sins and was resurrected. Correct?"

I believe a person is "absolutely" [i.e - forevermore"] saved when they have been justified before God at the moment of their regeneration.

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The only problem with that sentence is "forevermore". It is true that, as long as we remain faithful to God's will, and continue, with a repentant attitude, to attempt to obey Christ continually, we can be assured of the security of our salvation. But if we cease to be repentant, if we choose to live in sin, if we stop following Jesus as our Lord, we can, and will, lose our salvation.

Rapture Bound said:

(2) "You believe that that salvation cannot be lost for any reason. Correct?"

I believe that no genuine believer [will ever] actually forfeit their salvation ["for any reason"] ... as I have demonstrated in the Molinist "can/won't model of preseverance". This model is one that some have never considered [due to lack of exposure to it], while others have failed to either embrace or comprehend the philosophy [i.e.- logic] behind it [primarily due to their personal pre-conceived, ingrained beliefs ... which they assume must be true].

Just because it is asserted that an event [could] transpire [i.e. - the forfeiture of salvation], that assertion, in no way, shape or form, necessitates that that event [will] actually ever take place.

The main objection to the above Molinist "can/won't model of a believer's perseverance" truth claim is that it makes the various warning passages scattered throughout scripture something less than "real."...and therefore, they end up becoming meaningless as far as consequences go. I fully address this objection in post #133 - page 7 :

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I don't know anything about the "molinist" concept. I have not studied molin's writings, nor do I have any plan to. He did not die for my sins, so I don't really care what he said. But what I can tell you is that his claims in this case are absolutely wrong. Consider if you will the parable of the unforgiving servant in Matt 18:21-35. The servant owed 10,000 talents (a talent being worth 20 years worth of wages for the average man. About a million dollars today considering a $50,000 average wage). An unpayable sum. Now, can there be any doubt that in verse 27, the master forgave the debt of the servant fully and completely? This is an analogy to the 100% forgiveness of our unforgivable sin debt that Christ gives us when we are saved. We are forgiven and completely freed from the debt we owe. So now notice that in verse 34 the debt was reinstated in full. Why? Because the servant did not mirror his master and forgive his fellow servant. I know this parable is primarily about forgiveness, but the great thing about Jesus' parables is that they teach multiple lessons about multiple topics in a single, simple, story.

Rapture Bound said:

(3) "Now, what of the person who believes, lives a Godly life for a while, and then goes back to living a life of unrepentant sin?"

Then their "belief" or "faith" was not the quality of faith that was necessary in order to avoid such a scenario. In other words, it was not a "saving" faith, a faith that actually resulted in the regeneration of that person's soul. It appears to me that 1 John 3:9 makes this abundantly clear. All those who have been born of God, that is, regenerated and indwelt by the life principle of God [God's seed] cannot, that is, will not revert back to living lives of unrepentant sin.[as demonstrated in post #61 - page 4:]

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I would agree that there is a quality of faith that makes it a "saving" faith. And there is a lesser quality belief that does not save. But I believe that you are misreading what 1 John 3:9 is saying. Can this verse really mean that a person who is "in Christ" cannot sin? No. It is saying that a person "in Christ" is not credited with their sin, because the blood of Christ continually cleanses him of all sin as it is committed (1 John 1:7). Notice the condition placed on the continual cleansing. "But "IF" we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin."

Rapture Bound said:

(4) "There is a problem here, because either the person was never saved in the first place (in which case a person is not saved when they believe), or they are saved and repentance is not necessary for salvation (which would contradict Acts 3:19 and many other passages). You cannot have it both ways."

Concerning your statement, ""There is a problem here, because either the person was never saved in the first place (in which case a person is not saved when they believe)"

There is no contradiction [problem] here, only one that is falsely perceived... that is, one that was built upon faulty premises. I have stated compelling evidence that those who fall back into lifestyles of unrepentant sin are exclusively those who have never been regenerated. [and they were not saved due to the fact that they never possesed saving faith].

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The servant who failed to forgive his fellow possessed "saving faith" when he begged his master to have mercy. He asked for, and received, a full pardon (salvation) from the debt he could not possibly pay. He was saved. But his salvation was lost. There are many other examples like this (as expounded by LoveGodsWord) that equally show that salvation not only can, but will, be lost if we fail to continue (endure, etc.) in faithfulness to God until the end of our life.

Rapture Bound said:

You said, "or they are saved and repentance is not necessary for salvation (which would contradict Acts 3:19 and many other passages). You cannot have it both ways."

Well, I would never imply that repentance isn't a necessary component of saving faith. However, the very fact that a genuine believer will not revert back to living a life characterized by habitual sin [1 John 3:9] surely implies that an acceptable "measure" of repentance will be present in their lives ... all the way until that time when they receive their Heavenly inheritance.

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The assumption that one who has been truly saved will not cease a repentant life is based on a faulty premise. There is no such assertion in Scripture, in fact there is exactly the opposite assertion that salvation will certainly be lost if one fails to keep the faith, run the race, finish the fight. Paul goes so far as to say that even he continually had to fight his physical body's propensity for sin so that, after having preached (and brought to salvation) to so many, he would not find himself disqualified from the "prize" (salvation).

Doug Brents replied [post #1523], "I would agree that there is a quality of faith that makes it a "saving" faith. And there is a lesser quality belief that does not save. But I believe that you are misreading what 1 John 3:9 is saying. Can this verse really mean that a person who is "in Christ" cannot sin? No. It is saying that a person "in Christ" is not credited with their sin, because the blood of Christ continually cleanses him of all sin as it is committed (1 John 1:7). Notice the condition placed on the continual cleansing. "But "IF" we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin."

My Reply :

You stated, "Notice the condition placed on the continual cleansing. "But "IF" we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin."

God doesn't simply require holiness; He promises it to all of His sons and daughters. If you know that you are in fact a child of God, then you can rest knowing that you will persevere. As Dr. Kenneth Keathly said, "perseverance [and the fulfillment of the "if's'] should be viewed more as a promise than a requirement."

The necessary or sufficient conditions/requirements mentioned throughout scripture will be manifested and produced in all true believers by the Holy Spirit. They will exist as the inevitable by-product of the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit and the new nature/heart miraculously delivered at the new birth (John 3:3-8; Titus 3:5).

(1) We must persevere in faith to enter heaven (2 Tim.2:12; Heb.3:14;10:26). Not to persevere is to perish.

(2) God will preserve us in our faith even though at times we may doubt and wander from the path of righteousness. But He will always remain true to his promise by ensuring that none of His children will fall so far as to finally and forever fail. God will preserve us, we will in fact persevere, we will endure in faith.

Jude 1:1-2,"Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:"

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24," Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it."


You stated, "But I believe that you are misreading what 1 John 3:9 is saying. Can this verse really mean that a person who is "in Christ" cannot sin?"

Absolutely, that is, when it's properly understood in the original Greek language ... "cannot sin" here does not imply sinless perfection [their will be a link provided below demonstrating what this phrase entails].

Here's more compelling evidence found in 1 John 3:9 concerning the permanent nature of the new birth :

1 John 3:9 and the Permanent Nature of the New Birth - Part 2 :


King James Version - 1 John 3:9 :

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

English Standard Version - 1 John 3:9 :

No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.

Greek Interlinear - 1 John 3:9 :

Anyone having been born [Πᾶς ὁ γεγεννημένος] of God [ἐκ τοῦ Θεοῦ] sin not [ἁμαρτίαν οὐ] practices [ποιεῖ] because [ὅτι] seed of Him [σπέρμα αὐτοῦ] in [ἐν] him [αὐτῷ] abides [μένει]
and [καὶ] not [οὐ] he is able [δύναται] to continue sinning [ἁμαρτάνειν] because [ὅτι] of God [ἐκ τοῦ Θεοῦ] he has been born [γεγέννηται].

Pas ho [Πᾶς ὁ] gegennēmenos [γεγεννημένος] ek [ἐκ] tou [τοῦ] Theo [Θεοῦ] hamartian [ἁμαρτίαν] ou [οὐ] poiei [ποιεῖ] hoti [ὅτι] sperma [σπέρμα ] autou [αὐτοῦ] menei [μένει] kai [καὶ] ou [οὐ] dynatai [δύναται] hamartanein [ἁμαρτάνειν] hoti [ὅτι] ek [ἐκ] tou [τοῦ] Theo [Θεοῦ] gegennētai [γεγέννηται].


'SPERMA AUTOU' IN 1 John 3:9 :

seed of Him [σπέρμα αὐτοῦ]

sperma [σπέρμα ] autou [αὐτοῦ]

The following link connects to an excellent article by J. du Preez [entitled 'SPERMA AUTOU' IN 1 JOHN 3:9]. It's an article that I highly endorse, and is one which I believe masterfully exposits the overall message of 1 John 3:9 [one of my favorite passages found in scripture].

https://journals.co.za/doi/pdf/10.10520/AJA2548356_53

The implication of 1 John 3:9, as it relates to the eternal security of the believer, is crystal clear ...all those who have been born of God will permanently remain as sons and daughters of God.

1 John 5:4, "For whoever has been born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world: our faith." [NASB].

Greek Interlinear : "For [hoti] everyone [pan to] having been born [gegennēmenon] of [ek tou] God [Theou] overcomes [nika] the [ton] world [kosmon]."

Those of the LOS [Loss Of Salvation] camp disagree by claiming that a believer's faith may or may not persist during the course of their lifetime, and that some will ultimately cease believing [i.e. - abandon their faith altogether].

Their point is easily disproved when it is shown that all those who have been born of God simply cannot and will not remain a habitual sinner. [see post #61 - pg.4 - linked below] ... it simply isn't possible for any person born of God to possess a lifestyle characterized by righteousness apart from their possession of the [saving] faith mentioned in 1 John 5:4.

Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation?

Therefore, it only logically follows that all those born of God have not only overcome the world [past tense], but are also guaranteed that they will overcome it [future tense]. As for myself, I share the Apostle Paul's sentiments spoken in in 2 Timothy 1:12, "For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day."

So, once again we discover that the critical question here is not "will I as a genuine believer continue to overcome the world?, but rather questions such as, "have I truly been born of God?, and "have I ever exercised the type of faith that truly saves [i.e.- justified me before God?"].

It's important to properly understand the overall theme of the book of 1 John. It should be viewed as describing tests of life that are identifying marks that all believers possess. That is to say, they are tests of genuineness concerning a person's professed faith. These marks are more evident in some believers than in others, but they all are present in every true child of God. The Apostle John points out what these marks are, and states that those who have them can and will “know” that they have eternal life because only true believers can possess these marks, while no unbeliever can truly have them.

"If however 3:9 and its adjacent verses are read attentively it will strike the reader that in various ways they deal with: being pure and doing right and showing love in fellowship with the Son of God as the test for being born of God, as the test for being a true child of God." [J. du Preez].

The same tests or markers that show someone is saved will also, however, manifest when someone is not saved. 1 John is a commonly misunderstood book. One could understand why, Satan doesn’t want people who are not saved to know that they are not.

J. du Preez neatly summarizes and parallels my above truth claims under the heading of "The meaning of 'sperma autou':

"In the light of what has been observed with regard to paragraphs 3: 1 and 3:2, sperma autou should be understood as that new life of being pure and doing right through practising brotherly love in communion with God (Christ) and according to the example of Christ. Does this not agree with the concept of portraying the likeness of God? Sperma recalls the concept of reproduction according to your own likeness. If the seed of God then remains in the believer, this unusual expression simply wants to convey the truth that the new man is a person regenerated permanently after God's image. I would risk the suggestion that the expression: 'because his (God's) seed remains in him' (the believer) may be interpreted: because he is now permanently God's likeness, ...

Thus 1 Jh. 3:9 means the following: Whosoever is born of God (γεγεννημένος, perf. part. pass., signifying the permanent result, i.e. whosoever is a child of God) does not commit sin, i.e. does not live in sin (durative praesens: οὐ ποιεῖ ), because His seed remains in him, i.e, because he has received a lasting life of purity, righteousness and love in communion with God - in other words, because in Christ (cf. v. 8) he has become God's likeness in a new and lasting way; and he cannot sin, i.e. he simply cannot live in sin (ἁμαρτάνειν, infinitive praesens) because he has been born of none other than God himself (ἐκ τοῦ Θεοῦ, with emphasis).

The translation of this verse as a whole may therefore read as follows: 'Whosoever has become a child of God, does not live in sin, because he is now the lasting likeness of his father. In fact. he cannot live in sin. simply because God is his Father'.

LoveGodsWord said:

No dear friend (see post # 1484 linked). As posted earlier, from the scriptures, we are saved by God's grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved because all of us have already broken the law and are under it's penalty of condemnation and death *Romans 3:9-23; 2 Corinthians 3:3-11. So it is by God's grace through faith in Gods' Word that we are saved through Gods forgiveness of our sins being justified by the blood of Christ and his death and sacrifice for our sins given as a free gift to all those who have faith. According to the scriptures, obedience to what Gods Word says is not how we are saved it is the fruit of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 is obedience to the faith *Romans 1:5 as we believe and follow what his word says *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit according to the scriptures, it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and does not lead to obeying Gods' Word then our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27 because we do not have genuine faith. We should be careful to believe what God says and not the false teaching of OSAS.

You take Care now

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Yes dear friend you do believe in Salvation by works, its the inevitable consequence of denying eternal security. Everyone Christ died for has been perfected forever Heb 10:14

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

And them that are sanctified are them who Christ died for Heb 10:10

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

LoveGodsWord said:

According to the scriptures, the bible defines who a Saint is according to the scriptures as someone who has patience and obeys the commandments of God through faith in Jesus. *Revelation 14:12. Therefore anyone who does not believe and follows what God's Word says is not one of God's Saints.

No dear friend. Your bearing false witness again sadly. I have already told you exactly what I believe in post # 1484 linked. You keep ignoring it. (see the previous post above as to what I believe).

Take Care Dear friend.

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Yes since you believe a saint can become a non saint, you outright deny Ps 37:28

For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.

Prov 2;8

He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints.

LoveGodsWord said:

Yes dear friend everyone who chooses to believe and follow what God's Word says can be saved according to the scriptures *see John 3:36; Matthew 7:21-23; John 10:26-27; 1 John 2:3-4

No dear friend, No one is lost by default and no one believes in salvation by works (see post # 1484 linked). We are lost when we reject God's Word in unbelief and return to a life of unrepentant sin after God gives us a knowledge of the truth of His Word according to the scriptures in, Hebrews 10:26-27 [26], For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins,[27], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Indeed dear friend but the elect are those who are believing and following what Gods' Word says according to the scriptures not those who have departed the faith into unbelief and known unrepentant sin (see Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 10:26-31; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; 1 John 2:3-4; Matthew 7:21; John 10:26-27).

Indeed dear friend but once again, according to the scriptures, those who are kept the power of God are those who have faith in Gods' Word. That is they believe and follow what Gods Word says. They are not those who say they believe and do not obey Gods' Word. James calls this the dead faith of devils in James 2:13-26.

No dear friend as shown above and all through the scriptures shared with you the scriptures define God's people (His Saints) as all those who believe and follow Gods' Word. Every scripture you have provided here agree with what I have been sharing with you and are in disagreement with you because God's people are all those who believe and follow what God's Word says. They are not those who once believed yesterday and choose to depart the faith today to live a life of known unrepentant sin. Gods' Word says these people are in danger of the judgement (Hebrews 10:26-39). This is what you do not seem to be understanding in our discussion.

You take Care now.

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All that you proclaim comes to nought, since you dot believe in once saved always saved. You can only be trusting in man and his doings to make him eternally secure.

Freth said:

Romans 6 explains in detail why obedience is necessary.

The opening statement makes it clear, we should not live in sin.

Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?​

The old way of life, and the new way of life.

Romans 6:3-7 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.​

Romans 6:8-11 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

Sin and the Christian.

Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.​

Sin and grace.

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.​

Romans 6:19-22 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
​

The wages of sin.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

Conclusion: Obedience unto righteousness is necessary for the Christian.

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You fall into the same boat with the other poster, salvation by the obedience of man.

HIM said:

What does it mean to be kept? Watched, guarded by God’s power through faith?

And while we are at it please share how the rest of 1 Peter and 2 Peter fit into your theology of not being able to lose salvation. These verses in particular.

1Peter being addressed to the elect, the chosen of God. If we could not lose out on salvation then why are we being admonished to refrain our tongues from evil and to hate it because the face of our God is against those whom do evil.

1 Peter 3:10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
1 Peter 3:11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.
1 Peter 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.

And these verses where it states that the righteous are barely saved. Keep in mind 1 John 3 where it states He that does righteousness is righteous even as He (Jesus) is righteous.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1 Peter 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

1 Peter 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

And as was said; what of 2 Peter where in chapter one it says that we the elect are to give diligence to make are calling and election sure?

2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

And what of chapter 2? Where it states if after we have escaped the pollutions of this world and we are entangled therein the latter end will be worse.

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

Or mind you in chapter 3. Where we are council to be not ignorant. For the Lord is long suffering. Not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. For this long suffering that all come to repentance is the salvation of the Lord so be diligent to be found in Him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

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Gods Power keeps the saint/believer believing, in faith.

Brightfame52 said:

Gods Power keeps the saint/believer believing, in faith.

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Is that what the text states? Please show how it says that within the context of the passage.

And please share how the rest of 1 Peter and 2 Peter fit into your theology of not being able to lose salvation. These verses in particular.

1Peter being addressed to the elect, the chosen of God. If we could not lose out on salvation then why are we being admonished to refrain our tongues from evil and to hate it because the face of our God is against those whom do evil.

1 Peter 3:10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
1 Peter 3:11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.
1 Peter 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.

And these verses where it states that the righteous are barely saved. Keep in mind 1 John 3 where it states He that does righteousness is righteous even as He (Jesus) is righteous.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1 Peter 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

1 Peter 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

And as was said; what of 2 Peter where in chapter one it says that we the elect are to give diligence to make are calling and election sure?

2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

And what of chapter 2? Where it states if after we have escaped the pollutions of this world and we are entangled therein the latter end will be worse.

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

Or mind you in chapter 3. Where we are council to be not ignorant. For the Lord is long suffering. Not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. For this long suffering that all come to repentance is the salvation of the Lord so be diligent to be found in Him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

HIM said:

Is that what the text states? Please show how it says that within the context of the passage.

And please share how the rest of 1 Peter and 2 Peter fit into your theology of not being able to lose salvation. These verses in particular.

1Peter being addressed to the elect, the chosen of God. If we could not lose out on salvation then why are we being admonished to refrain our tongues from evil and to hate it because the face of our God is against those whom do evil.

1 Peter 3:10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
1 Peter 3:11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.
1 Peter 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.

And these verses where it states that the righteous are barely saved. Keep in mind 1 John 3 where it states He that does righteousness is righteous even as He (Jesus) is righteous.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1 Peter 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

1 Peter 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

And as was said; what of 2 Peter where in chapter one it says that we the elect are to give diligence to make are calling and election sure?

2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

And what of chapter 2? Where it states if after we have escaped the pollutions of this world and we are entangled therein the latter end will be worse.

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

Or mind you in chapter 3. Where we are council to be not ignorant. For the Lord is long suffering. Not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. For this long suffering that all come to repentance is the salvation of the Lord so be diligent to be found in Him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

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Yes that is what it says and means. The Power of God keeps the believer in the Faith 1 Pet 1:5
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Its the Power of God that incites the Faith of the believer, Jesus prayed to God the Father that Peters Faith fails not Lk 22:32

32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Brightfame52 said:

Yes that is what it says and means. The Power of God keeps the believer in the Faith 1 Pet 1:5
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Its the Power of God that incites the Faith of the believer, Jesus prayed to God the Father that Peters Faith fails not Lk 22:32

32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

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Ahh, so again it is through faith (actions motivate by belief and understanding of what God did for us) that we are “kept” in Christ. So it is exactly as LoveGodsWord, and I, and others, have been saying; we remain saved as long as we remain faithful to Christ and endure to the end of life.

Brightfame52 said:

Yes that is what it says and means. The Power of God keeps the believer in the Faith 1 Pet 1:5
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Its the Power of God that incites the Faith of the believer, Jesus prayed to God the Father that Peters Faith fails not Lk 22:32

32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

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No that is not what the text states within the context of the passage. Please look at it again and the surrounding passages

Doug Brents said:

Ahh, so again it is through faith (actions motivate by belief and understanding of what God did for us) that we are “kept” in Christ. So it is exactly as LoveGodsWord, and I, and others, have been saying; we remain saved as long as we remain faithful to Christ and endure to the end of life.

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I just answered. Faith is kept up by the power of God.

HIM said:

No that is not what the text states within the context of the passage. Please look at it again and the surrounding passages

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Of course that what the text says. The Believer is kept by the power of God through Faith. Faith and the Believer are kept in/by the power of God. A believer doesnt apostatize from the Faith because of the Power of God

HIM said:

No that is not what the text states within the context of the passage. Please look at it again and the surrounding passages

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Yes it is exactly what the text says. Faith is upheld by the power of God. The rest of the passages support it.

Brightfame52 replied [post #1535], "Of course that what the text says. The Believer is kept by the power of God through Faith. Faith and the Believer are kept in/by the power of God. A believer doesnt apostatize from the Faith because of the Power of God."

My Reply :

Yes indeed! And what does that "power of God" look like? God uses various means [both positive and negative] in order to preserve all of His children. That is to say, God will provide that which is essential to keeping them "in the faith" to the very end of their earthly journeys... which, in turn, necessarily implies their persevering through faith to the end. Those who are genuine believers will respond to those means that God implements by virtue of their new natures ... of being born of God [1 John 3:9] ... of being new creations in Christ [2 Corinthians 5:17-21].

Those [negative means] include His chasteninings as well as the various warning passages scattered throughout the scriptures. The [positive means] refer to His blessings that are perfectly tailored and timed to each of His children's individual needs.

1 Peter 1:6-7,"In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you
have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more
precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise,
honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,"

"In this you greatly rejoice" (v.6):

The critical question that needs to be pondered here is: "If any genuine follower of
Christ will ever fail these trials to the destruction of their souls (the forfeiture of
their salvation), then how could the possibility of rejoicing in them even exist? After all,
the eternal destiny of their souls are yet to be determined, that is, if any one will
actually fail the test.

How can a believer truly rejoice if they can only be assured of their salvation today ... but not in a week, or month, or year from now? [i.e - on their way to Heaven today ... but on their way to the Lake of Fire a month from now]. Or, more to the point, "how could their perspective concerning trials possibly be perceived as a positive thing if it includes the reality that even one genuine believer will fail the test and ultimately end up in the Lake of Fire?"

It appears to me that many are failing to perceive God's true purposes and intents concerning those trials.

There is a worldly saying that goes like this, "What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger."
Biblically speaking, we may often ask ourselves, "what is the purpose of our trials and tribulations?"

Think of trials as training! God has to train His troops. Have you ever heard of any staff sergeant who got to where he was without going through tough situations? God has to prepare His children for the future.

“A gem cannot be polished without friction, nor a man perfected without trials.”

“Being on a spiritual path does not prevent you from facing the darkness, but it teaches you how to use the darkness as a tool to grow.”

The endurance of our faith, despite the many rigorous trials, evidences and provides the true [saving] nature of our faith ... it's genuineness. The failure to endure reveals the counterfeit/spurious nature of a person's profession of faith.

“Trials teach us what we are; they dig up the soil, and let us see what we are made of.” God already knows what we are made of, but do we personally possess that needed assurance that we are, and will always be His child? [Romans 8:16 with 1 Timothy 2:11].

So, in the end, we discover that what is really the most important question in any person's life is not, " Will I actually forfeit [lose] my salvation?", but instead, "Have I actually been born-gain?, that is, am I actually a new creation in Christ?" [John 3:3-8; Titus 3:5-7; 2 Corinthians 5:17].

Brightfame52 said:

Again, if you believe a person can be saved, then lost, by default, you believe in Salvation by works. See nothing and no one can undo what God in Christ has done to save His Elect. They are kept in Faith by the power of God 1 Pet 1:5
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

As quoted before:

Ecc 3:14
14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

You believe the opposite, you believe something can undo, take away from the work of God in Salvation !

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Brightfame52 said:

Gods Power keeps the saint/believer believing, in faith.

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Brightfame52 said:

Yes that is what it says and means. The Power of God keeps the believer in the Faith 1 Pet 1:5
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Its the Power of God that incites the Faith of the believer, Jesus prayed to God the Father that Peters Faith fails not Lk 22:32

32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Click to expand...

Brightfame52 said:

I just answered. Faith is kept up by the power of God.

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Brightfame52 said:

Of course that what the text says. The Believer is kept by the power of God through Faith. Faith and the Believer are kept in/by the power of God. A believer doesnt apostatize from the Faith because of the Power of God

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Brightfame52 said:

Yes it is exactly what the text says. Faith is upheld by the power of God. The rest of the passages support it.

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No, the text does not say

Faith is upheld by the power of God or

the power of God keeps the believer in the faith.

And Neither of these two statements by you say the same as the other statement you made. Which is, “The Believer is kept by the power of God through Faith.”


This is true of the text but it is not the context of the passage nor is it what you said from the start. Which was, “ the power of God keeps the believer in the faith.” Which at that point you proceeded to quote 1 Peter 1:5 as a proof text. Which does not support your assertion at all.


Let’s take a look shall we. Please follow along.

God says, elect, through the sanctification of the Spirit into obedience AND sprinkling of blood. In other words He says, the elect are elect because of the sanctification of the Spirit unto, into obedience and the sprinkling of the blood. Begotten into a living hope, a cheerful expectation through the resurrection of Christ Jesus. A new life through Christ Jesus. His spirit sanctifying us and His blood cleansing us from our old ways.


We are being kept in the sense of being guarded or protected through the sanctification by His Spirit through Faith. Our faith is also a gift from God. But the outcome of our being kept, guarded in the protective sense depends on our allowing this gift of faith from God to dictate our actions and thoughts through our faith, through the sanctification of His Spirit. All this so That this trail of our faith be found unto praise and honor. As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: Be ye Holy for He is Holy. Pass the sojourning here in fear calling upon the Father who judges according to every man’s work without respect of person.



1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

1 Peter 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, having been reserved in heaven for you,

1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:


1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

1 Peter 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

1 Peter 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

1 Peter 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

HIM said:

No, the text does not say

Faith is upheld by the power of God or

the power of God keeps the believer in the faith.

And Neither of these two statements by you say the same as the other statement you made. Which is, “The Believer is kept by the power of God through Faith.”


This is true of the text but it is not the context of the passage nor is it what you said from the start. Which was, “ the power of God keeps the believer in the faith.” Which at that point you proceeded to quote 1 Peter 1:5 as a proof text. Which does not support your assertion at all.


Let’s take a look shall we. Please follow along.

God says, elect, through the sanctification of the Spirit into obedience AND sprinkling of blood. In other words He says, the elect are elect because of the sanctification of the Spirit unto, into obedience and the sprinkling of the blood. Begotten into a living hope, a cheerful expectation through the resurrection of Christ Jesus. A new life through Christ Jesus. His spirit sanctifying us and His blood cleansing us from our old ways.


We are being kept in the sense of being guarded or protected through the sanctification by His Spirit through Faith. Our faith is also a gift from God. But the outcome of our being kept, guarded in the protective sense depends on our allowing this gift of faith from God to dictate our actions and thoughts through our faith, through the sanctification of His Spirit. All this so That this trail of our faith be found unto praise and honor. As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: Be ye Holy for He is Holy. Pass the sojourning here in fear calling upon the Father who judges according to every man’s work without respect of person.



1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

1 Peter 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, having been reserved in heaven for you,

1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:


1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

1 Peter 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

1 Peter 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

1 Peter 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

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Again its exactly what it says, The Believer is kept by or in the power of God, that includes his Faith. You cant separate the believer from his God given Faith.

Brightfame52 said:

Yes it is exactly what the text says. Faith is upheld by the power of God. The rest of the passages support it.

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Sad that you think that because you say so is all it takes. No where does the text state in 1 Peter 1 that Faith is upheld by the power of God or the power of God keeps the believer in the faith.

And Neither of these two statements by you say the same as the other statement you made. Which is, “The Believer is kept by the power of God through Faith.”


This is true of the text but it is not the context of the passage nor is it what you said from the start. Which was, “ the power of God keeps the believer in the faith.”