WHY SALVATION CAN BE LOST

Trivalee · Feb 6, 2022

BibleBeliever1611 said:
Wrong. We would definitely lose it on any occasional sin. Let's see what the Bible says...

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." - James 2:10

To clear the air, I believe that salvation can be lost if the saved fails to abide in Christ to the end of his Christian journey. That said, I'm afraid you misunderstood James argument in the text you cited (James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all).

To understand the above, the preceding text laid out James' argument that he was comparing the severity of the Mosaic law to the NT; vide James 2:8; Leviticus 19:18 - If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

Contrasting the OT to the New, James continued:

James 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

the "law of liberty and mercy rejoicing over judgment" simply denotes the abundance of grace and forgiveness available to believers in the current dispensation (church age).

But, if you insist that every occasional sin (easily besetting sin Heb 12:1) leads to the loss of salvation then it raises the question of whether your good self is not at risk of losing your salvation since no man can hand-on-heart, swear not to have lied for once since they became born-again. I know I have told a few porkies in my time of which that I am ashamed of and have asked the Lord for forgiveness.

Trivalee · Feb 6, 2022

Clare73 said:
We are not under the curse of the law in the New Covenant.

"No one will be declared righteous by observing the law, rather through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from the law has been made known" (Romans 3:20-21), a righteousness that is by faith from first to last (faith to faith), just as it is written, 'The righteous will live by faith,' (Romans 1:17), just as righteousness was imputed/credited to Abraham because of faith." (Romans 4:3; Genesis 15:6)

I agree with you and I have also, pointed out to 'Biblebeliever' that Apostle James was drawing our attention to the severity of the OT law in 2:10 while highlighting the difference by grace available to us in this age in verses 12-13.

Trivalee · Feb 6, 2022

Clare73 said:
So you've included in Hebrews 3:7-4:13 both
1) a warning to possessors of faith (believers), which warnings are how God preserves believers in OSAS, and are not an indication they can lose their salvation, and
2) a warning to professors (only) of the results of the apostasy of unbelief.

This is how all warnings in the NT regarding faith and/or salvation are to be understood, and not as indications that salvation can be lost.

. . .

Since the beginning of this OP, I have vigorously argued that salvation can be lost and backed my case with several indisputable scriptures.

I responded to a comment made by a brother that those referenced in Heb 6:4-6 were not saved. In my rebuttal, l interpreted the text line by line to show they are truly saved.

It is noteworthy, that the author of Hebrews (presumably Paul) made a hypothetical case in Heb 6:4-6. The purpose was to show that if salvation is lost, it cannot be redeemed. That said, the NT is full of warnings about the consequences of failing to abide in Christ till the end of mortal life. If there is zero possibility of the saved losing their salvation, surely these warnings would have been unnecessary.

Paul even mentioned a few apostles that backslid and left the faith (1 Tim 1:19, 2 Tim 1:16).

Clare73 · Feb 6, 2022

Rapture Bound said:
Trivalee stated in post #932, "If you believe that the Christians described in these passages are unsaved and not born, then you must be reading your bible upside down."

True believers (possessors of faith) will rightly fear the warning, they will acknowledge, and reason within themselves that God would be just in stripping them of the priceless free gift of eternal life that they had received; they will reflect upon His love for them,

and the horrendous and painful means that their Messiah endured in order to purchase that gift.
They will shudder and cringe at the very thought of putting their precious Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to "open shame" [verse 6]... "But beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak." [Hebrews 6:9].

Clare73 said:
So you've included in Hebrews 3:7-4:13 both
1) a warning to possessors of faith (believers), which warnings are how God preserves believers in OSAS, and are not an indication they can lose their salvation,
2) and a warning to professors (only) of the results of the apostasy of unbelief.
This is how all warnings in the NT regarding faith and/or salvation are to be understood, and not as indications that salvation can be lost.
. . .

Trivalee said:
Since the beginning of this OP, I have vigorously argued that salvation can be lost and backed my case with several indisputable scriptures.

I responded to a comment made by a brother that those referenced in Heb 6:4-6 were not saved. In my rebuttal, l interpreted the text line by line to show they are truly saved.

It is noteworthy, that the author of Hebrews (presumably Paul) made a hypothetical case in Heb 6:4-6. The purpose was to show that if salvation is lost, it cannot be redeemed. That said,

the NT is full of warnings about the consequences of failing to abide in Christ till the end of mortal life. If there is zero possibility of the saved losing their salvation, surely these warnings would have been unnecessary.

Contrare. . .

Believers aren't kept from falling away by the power of their own faith. . .God keeps them. . .warnings being one of the ways he does so.
Warnings are one of the ways God's keeps his people from falling away.

Paul even mentioned a few apostles that backslid and left the faith (1 Tim 1:19, 2 Tim 1:16).

Leaving "the faith" (Christianity) simply means one had counterfeit faith (Matthew 7:21-23).

Trivalee · Feb 6, 2022

klutedavid said:
You need to ask yourself whether you can accept or deny the following verse.

Romans 10:13
For “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Do you believe this verse?

YES, I do! But the problem is that many believers misunderstand what being saved means.

Bear with me and I will clarify for your understanding. When an unbeliever comes to faith, we say he is born-again and SAVED, right? But being 'saved' in this context is merely an expression of the promise of eternal life made to such a believer. No believer in the flesh has the real substance of eternal life, it is only given after the resurrection/rapture after we endure in Christ in this life.

If you still don't believe me, consider the passage below because it corroborates my case.

Matt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end shall be saved.

What stands out in this text is that Jesus was addressing the disciples. Hopefully, you agree that they, save Judas Iscariot, were all saved/born again? So, if they were already saved/born again at the time of the Olivet discourse, what then did Jesus mean by "shall be saved"; future tense?

The key is, "he that endures to the end". End of what? Mortal life, of course!
Therefore, "shall be saved" in this context refers to the reward of immortality and eternal life in the next age after satisfactorily enduring the trials of this age and not denying Christ.
Matt 24:13 is one of the uncontestable passages that prove that salvation can be lost because it makes no sense if there's no possibility of the saved walking away from Christ.
Also, at the end of each of the letters to the seven churches in Revelation, the Lord concluded each one with the warning "to him that overcomes/endures AND kept my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations (Rev 2:26)."
Again, we see the gift of eternal life [saved] as a proviso to overcome/enduing in the Lord to the end of a believer's mortal life.

Hope this helps...

Trivalee · Feb 6, 2022

Clare73 said:
Contrare. . .

Believers aren't kept from falling away by the power of their own faith. . .God keeps them. . .warnings being one of the ways he does so. Warnings are one of the ways God's keeps his people from falling away.

Do you realise that your post is an oxymoron, and devoid of logic?

If the Lord keeps the saved from falling, isn't the warning rather unnecessary then?
In plain language, IF the Lord will keep the saved from falling, then the warning serves no purpose BECAUSE they will never fall.

Clare73 · Feb 6, 2022

Trivalee said:
Do you realise that your post is an oxymoron, and devoid of logic?

Are you sure about that?

If the Lord keeps the saved from falling, isn't the warning rather unnecessary then?

In plain language, IF the Lord will keep the saved from falling, then

the warning serves no purpose BECAUSE they will never fall.

They will never fall because he keeps them. . .they don't keep themselves. . .if he didn't keep them, they would fall. . .but they cannot and do not fall because he keeps them, warnings being one of the ways he does so (see post #964).

Jesus saves to the uttermost! (Hebrews 7:25)

Trivalee · Feb 6, 2022

Clare73 said:
Leaving "the faith" (Christianity) simply means one had counterfeit faith (Matthew 22:37-10).

Sigh! If I get a penny every time I've been presented with this bogus argument by those who hold that once-saved-is-forever-saved, I won't have to work anymore.

Clare73, FYI, there's no such thing as counterfeit faith. You either have faith in Christ or you don't! There's nothing in-between. I suspect you are alluding to those who sit on the fence, neither for nor against Christ. They are like the Laodicean church described as lukewarm - neither warm nor cold. But the Lord charged them to take a stand otherwise he will spew them out of his mouth (Rev 3:15-16).

In 1 Tim 4:1, Paul warned that in the last days (end times) some shall depart from the faith. It is impossible to depart from what you never had to begin with - so departing from faith here clearly showcase saved, believing Christians falling away from Christ either to promote false doctrine or simply becoming apostate.

The theory that the saved cannot lose their salvation is not supported in scripture.

Trivalee · Feb 6, 2022

klutedavid said:
Such as?

Where will I begin, there are numerous passages that warn believers of losing their salvation. So I'm challenging you to also take them into consideration before you conclude that salvation cannot be lost.

In Romans 11:22, Paul warned saved/born again Christians that unless they continue in goodness (faithful life in Christ) they will be cut off, lose their salvation. Do you refute this verse?

PrincetonGuy · Feb 6, 2022

Gabriel05 said:
The letter of Hebrews is addressed to unsaved Jews not Christians

May I suggest that you read the letter? The pronoun “we’ is used 51 times in 38 verses. Both the writer and those to whom he is writing are Christians who have been sanctified by the blood of Christ.

Trivalee · Feb 6, 2022

Rapture Bound said:
Clare73 replied in post #942 :

"I'm kinda' choking on this in light of the first 19 verses of the chapter describing these false teachers as bold, arrogant, blasphemers, denying the sovereign Lord who bought them, promoting destructive heresies, condemnation and destruction awaiting them, inordinate sexual practicers, despisers of authority, slanderers of celestial beings, brute beasts, creatures of instinct, carousing in broad daylight, eyes full of adultery, experts in greed, an accursed brood, following the way of Balaam, springs without water, mists driven by a storm, users of empty boastful words to appeal to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, slaves of depravity. . .and you think v. 20 teaches they were saved?

Hardly. . .there are no places in the NT where a lifestyle of depravity equates to salvation.

Seeing texts which treat of falling away as God preserving believers through warnings does much less violence to the texts that viewing 2 Peter 2:20 as stating the regenerate can lose salvation.

"there are no places in the NT where a lifestyle of depravity equates to salvation."....

My reply :

Agreed. The question at hand here is not whether or not those being described in the first 19 verses of 2 Peter 2 are genuine believers, those that are Heaven-bound; it appears obvious to me that they are not. The bigger question here is whether or not some of those being described there were at some point actually regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

It may be the case that some of them were at one time regenerated and some were not. And if that is the case, then the warning(s) applies to both groups. It is very possible that the solution here is not one of choosing one or the other ... the "either/or" scenario. As a OJAJ Molinist, I'm simply proposing the possibility [and even the "likelihood] that it is actually a "both/and" situation. I simply view it as the best solution to a portion of scripture that is extremely challenging to grasp in it's completeness [2 Peter 3:16].

Stating that "the regenerate can lose salvation", and "the regenerate will lose salvation" are two entirely different questions [as I explained in my prior post].

On the issue of the eternal security of the believer, it basically boils down to embracing the "can/won't" model of the perseverance of the believer [that is, if a person is to embrace the OJAJ Molinist perspective/theory on the issue].

If a person comes to the conclusion and conviction that a genuine believer will never forfeit their salvation by means other than the evidence provided by Molinism ...it's all good. As I said, there is much evidence apart from Molinist principles that makes a compelling case for that position. We are all certainly entitled to our opinions; it's simply my opinion that the issue here runs much deeper than most people imagine it to be [on both sides of the coin... those embracing that genuine believers will never forfeit their salvation, and those who claim that some will ].

According to the "can/won't" model, portions of scripture must exist that hypothetically describe the condition of genuine believers, and what the consequences and effects of apostasy would look like if it was actualized.

Concerning 2 Peter 2:20 ... those described are said to be entangled "again", meaning they have again been "overcome" and "servants of corruption" [vs.19] ... the implication here is that at one time they were not "entangled' but rather delivered and set free from the bondage to the world system and their sinful natures [this can only come as a result of the new birth ... of Holy Spirit regeneration].

Hebrews 6:6 carries with it the same thought, "If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance". The word "again" implies that they at one time exercised repentance; and if this repentance wasn't genuine, then I really can't see what the writer of Hebrews intent could possibly be.

And yes, I'm aware of the opposing viewpoints/evidence, and can see how a person might arrive at their perspective [i.e. that those in 2 Peter 2:20 were never truly regenerated]. Again, that is why I've stated that in my opinion, the topic of the eternal security of the believer runs much deeper than most believe [from all that I've seen in the past 35 years or so - which of course is merely subjective].

From my OJAJ Molinist perspective, the real issue here is if these hypothetical scenarios will ever actualize in the life of any genuine, blood-bought believer... and I believe that they simply will not ... in the end, God will preserve them and usher them in safely to Heaven through whatever trials they may face. See my post #55 - page 3, and post #62 - page 4 : < Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation? >

I like your post even though I disagree with the conclusion. Heb 6:4-6 is a hypothetical scenario and should not be relied upon to argue that salvation cannot be lost. Somebody claimed that those referenced therein were unsaved, but that's wrong. See post #963.

To successfully make a valid case that salvation is "once-saved-forever-saved" and cannot be lost, kindly review my argument for (salvation can be lost) and rebut it.

I apologise for the long exegesis, but if I just quoted some scriptures without explaining how they fit into my argument, it won’t help anyone. Throughout the NT, our Lord Jesus and all the Apostles warned us about the trials that will come upon believers and our need to endure to the end. The ‘end’ here is a reference to the end of mortal life. If there is no chance of a saved person losing their salvation these warnings in the Bible would not have been necessary.

Matt 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

The love in this passage refers to our love (belief/faith) for Jesus Christ. Unbelievers don't love Jesus so it doesn’t pertain to them. In John 21:15-17, Jesus asked Peter three times; do you love me? In Rev 2:4 Nevertheless, I have somewhat against you, because thou hast left thy first love.

As believers, the consequences are dire if our love (belief/faith) in Christ fails to endure (wax cold) to the end of mortal life. Fortunately, for those in the Ephesian church (Rev 2), Jesus the Righteous Judge assessed their hearts and found it wanting. Thus by his warning hopefully, they were able to repent (love him again) before death. Because after death, there is no more repentance (Rom 6:7).

Matt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

When Jesus addressed the disciples (the church), he said that those who endure to the end shall be saved. Jesus wasn't talking about their being saved as in 'born again' because they already were!

So despite their being born again (saved as we are today), Jesus still said we MUST ENDURE/PERSEVERE from everything that will challenge our faith and trust in Christ throughout our Christian journey before we inherit immortality and eternal life when he returns. From these texts, it is clear that even though we are saved, we can also potentially lose our salvation if we don't live righteously after being saved.

Furthermore, arguing that God has not rejected his people Israel, Paul says that they are presently broken off from the olive tree (Jesus) Rom 11:20. And to warn Gentiles (you and me) not to make the same mistake of unbelief as Israel that could get us broken off from the olive tree, he said:

Rom 11:23 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

So if salvation cannot be lost irrespective of unrepented sin or even outright departure from the faith (1 Tim 4:1), Paul wouldn’t have warned about the risk of being cut off from Christ! Remember you have to ve saved to be in Christ in the first place. Many other scriptures debunk the assumption that we are saved even if we continue in sin. But I hope these few scriptures helps clear the air. Therefore, as saved Believers, we must continue to abide in Christ till death to safeguard our salvation.

PrincetonGuy · Feb 6, 2022

John 15:6. “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.” (NASB, 1995)

John Calvin’s mistaken understanding of the sovereignty of God led him to deduce that the elect of God can do nothing to revoke their election, and he therefore added a whole lot of “fine print” to John 15:1-6 in order to bring it into harmony with his new teaching. Other Calvinists saw that Calvin’s fine print did not make sense, so they substituted their own fine print. Yet other Calvinists and Baptists have come along and decided that all of the fine print so far added needed to be edited or completely revised and have taken the liberty to do so.

And this adding of “fine print” has not been limited to John 15:1-6—it was added to more than 100 verses in the New Testament to bring these verses into harmony with the new teaching. This has been especially true regarding Hebrew 6:1-9. Indeed, it is very difficult to find even two Baptist scholars who agree what that fine print should say—but the volume of that fine print is massive and hugely diverse.

We are all free to believe as we choose, but the belief that none of the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers, and none of the thousands of teachers in the Church up to the 16th century—and all but a very small minority of them since then—were smart enough or spiritual enough to understand John 15:1-6, Hebrews 6:1-9, and the scores of other passages in the Bible that teach conditional security, is a wrong belief that is dependent upon a massive amount of “fine print” that contradicts not only the Scriptures, but contradicts itself in thousands and thousands of places!

Indeed, if the New Testament was so poorly written that even the doctrine of salvation could not be understood by anyone reading it during the first 1,500 years of the Church, the New Testament is not a collection of 27 books inspired by God—the New Testament is a collection of 27 books written my men with VERY poor writing skills!

My personal view is that the New Testament is a collection of 27 divinely inspired writings and that the doctrine of conditional salvation taught in them is taught so very clearly that it was universally understood for 1,500 years to be the teaching of the New Testament, but due to the spiritual wickedness of the dark ages, a handful of men became confused and spread their confusion to others. The very idea of being a Christian that has been irrevocably elected by God to salvation had a tremendous appeal to the less than careful readers of the Bible, and the idea caught on and spread like wildfire throughout much of Europe and beyond—and has continued to hold appeal for many down to the present.

None, absolutely none of the passages in the New Testament that are thought by some to teach eternal security, when studied in the Greek New Testament and the moods and tenses are interpreted using the same linguistic principles used to interpret the rest of the New Testament, actually teach eternal security—and some of these passages are then seen to actually teach conditional security (see earlier threads in this forum on eternal security for examples). And, of course, there are scores of verses in the New Testament that, when carefully studied in the light of the vocabulary and phraseology of the Christian writers of the first and second centuries, very clearly and distinctly teach that a true and genuine Christian can lose his salvation.

klutedavid · Feb 6, 2022

Trivalee said:
YES, I do! But the problem is that many believers misunderstand what being saved means.

Bear with me and I will clarify for your understanding. When an unbeliever comes to faith, we say he is born-again and SAVED, right? But being 'saved' in this context is merely an expression of the promise of eternal life made to such a believer. No believer in the flesh has the real substance of eternal life, it is only given after the resurrection/rapture after we endure in Christ in this life.

If you still don't believe me, consider the passage below because it corroborates my case.

Matt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end shall be saved.

What stands out in this text is that Jesus was addressing the disciples. Hopefully, you agree that they, save Judas Iscariot, were all saved/born again? So, if they were already saved/born again at the time of the Olivet discourse, what then did Jesus mean by "shall be saved"; future tense?

The key is, "he that endures to the end". End of what? Mortal life, of course!

Therefore, "shall be saved" in this context refers to the reward of immortality and eternal life in the next age after satisfactorily enduring the trials of this age and not denying Christ.

Matt 24:13 is one of the uncontestable passages that prove that salvation can be lost because it makes no sense if there's no possibility of the saved walking away from Christ.

Also, at the end of each of the letters to the seven churches in Revelation, the Lord concluded each one with the warning "to him that overcomes/endures AND kept my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations (Rev 2:26)."

Again, we see the gift of eternal life [saved] as a proviso to overcome/enduing in the Lord to the end of a believer's mortal life.

Hope this helps...

Your post is illogical.

Romans 10:13
For “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

The moment you believe in Jesus and receive the Holy Spirit, then you are saved.

The Lord will ensure through your life that you will endure to the very end. Because Jesus has promised that if you call on Him, you are saved.

If you should at some stage decide that you do not want to be saved. Then you can deny Jesus and walk away.

Anyone and no matter who they are, if they continue to call on the name of Jesus. There is nothing in heaven or earth that can stand in the way and that includes the devil. Nothing is more powerful than what Jesus performed at Calvary.

Jesus made that promise to us.

Romans 10:9-13
That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be put to shame. For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Now the next verse is very important also.

Ephesians 2:4-10
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the boundless riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

We are already seated with Christ in the heavenly realms!

We are not the ones that contribute to that salvation. Our endurance is protected by Jesus Christ.
Jesus will never let go of your hand, if you continue to call on the name of the Lord.

Clare73 · Feb 6, 2022

Trivalee said:
Sigh! If I get a penny every time I've been presented with this bogus argument by those who hold that once-saved-is-forever-saved, I won't have to work anymore.

Good to know the redeemed are on the job!

Clare73, FYI, there's no such thing as counterfeit faith. You either have faith in Christ or you don't!

Tell it to those in Matthew 7:21-23. . .who thought they had faith and were shocked to learn they did not.

There's nothing in-between. I suspect you are alluding to those who sit on the fence,

Would you call those fence-sitters in Matthew 7:21-23. . .who worked miracles in his name?

neither for nor against Christ. They are like the Laodicean church described as lukewarm - neither warm nor cold. But the Lord charged them to take a stand otherwise he will spew them out of his mouth (Rev 3:15-16).

In 1 Tim 4:1, Paul warned that in the last days (end times) some shall depart from the faith.

"The faith" means Christianity.

It is impossible to depart from what you never had to begin with - so departing from faith here clearly showcase saved, believing Christians falling away from Christ either to promote false doctrine or simply becoming apostate.

"Showcase saved" is counterfeit faith, as in Matthew 7:21-23.

The theory that the saved cannot lose their salvation is not supported in scripture.

Theory? . . .contrare. . .for starters:

"No one can come unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

"All that the Father gives me will come to me." (John 6:37)

"I shall lose none of all that he has given me," (John 6:39)

"Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He. . .set his seal of ownership on us and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come." (2 Corinthians 1:21-22; 2 Corinthians 5:5; 1 Corinthians 1:8)

"We were made heirs, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in accordance with the purpose of his will." (Ephesians 1:11)

"You who. . .have believed in him were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, (Ephesians 1:13-14)

". . .for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. (Philippians 2:13)

"Those he predestined, he also called; those he called he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." (Romans 8:30)

klutedavid · Feb 6, 2022

Trivalee said:
Where will I begin, there are numerous passages that warn believers of losing their salvation. So I'm challenging you to also take them into consideration before you conclude that salvation cannot be lost.

In Romans 11:22, Paul warned saved/born again Christians that unless they continue in goodness (faithful life in Christ) they will be cut off, lose their salvation. Do you refute this verse?

As I said previously, you do not engineer your own salvation. You cannot in any way, add to the reconciliation that Jesus performed at Calvary. It was never Jesus plus works. It was never Jesus plus the law. The gospel of Jesus Christ is the gospel of grace, the free gift, given to those that believe.

It is Jesus Christ that saves us from ourselves.

“Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

klutedavid · Feb 6, 2022

Clare73 said:
Good to know the redeemed are on the job!
Tell it to those in Matthew 22:37-40. . .who thought they had faith and were shocked to learn they did not.

Would you call those fence-sitters in Matthew 22:37-40. . .who worked miracles in his name?

"The faith" means Christianity.

"Showcase saved" is counterfeit faith, as in Matthew 22:37-40.
Theory? . . .contrare. . .for starters:

"No one can come unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

"All that the Father gives me will come to me." (John 6:37)

"I shall lose none of all that he has given me," (John 6:39)

"Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He. . .set his seal of ownership on us and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come." (2 Corinthians 1:21-22; 2 Corinthians 5:5; 1 Corinthians 1:8)

We were made heirs, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in accordance with the purpose of his will." (Ephesians 1:11)

"You who. . .have believed in him were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, (Ephesians 1:13-14)

". . .for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. (Philippians 2:13)

That's the way Clare73. The glory belongs to Jesus Christ and Him only.

klutedavid · Feb 6, 2022

PrincetonGuy said:
John 15:6. “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.” (NASB, 1995)

John Calvin’s mistaken understanding of the sovereignty of God led him to deduce that the elect of God can do nothing to revoke their election, and he therefore added a whole lot of “fine print” to John 15:1-6 in order to bring it into harmony with his new teaching. Other Calvinists saw that Calvin’s fine print did not make sense, so they substituted their own fine print. Yet other Calvinists and Baptists have come along and decided that all of the fine print so far added needed to be edited or completely revised and have taken the liberty to do so.

And this adding of “fine print” has not been limited to John 15:1-6—it was added to more than 100 verses in the New Testament to bring these verses into harmony with the new teaching. This has been especially true regarding Hebrew 6:1-9. Indeed, it is very difficult to find even two Baptist scholars who agree what that fine print should say—but the volume of that fine print is massive and hugely diverse.

We are all free to believe as we choose, but the belief that none of the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers, and none of the thousands of teachers in the Church up to the 16th century—and all but a very small minority of them since then—were smart enough or spiritual enough to understand John 15:1-6, Hebrews 6:1-9, and the scores of other passages in the Bible that teach conditional security, is a wrong belief that is dependent upon a massive amount of “fine print” that contradicts not only the Scriptures, but contradicts itself in thousands and thousands of places!

Indeed, if the New Testament was so poorly written that even the doctrine of salvation could not be understood by anyone reading it during the first 1,500 years of the Church, the New Testament is not a collection of 27 books inspired by God—the New Testament is a collection of 27 books written my men with VERY poor writing skills!

My personal view is that the New Testament is a collection of 27 divinely inspired writings and that the doctrine of conditional salvation taught in them is taught so very clearly that it was universally understood for 1,500 years to be the teaching of the New Testament, but due to the spiritual wickedness of the dark ages, a handful of men became confused and spread their confusion to others. The very idea of being a Christian that has been irrevocably elected by God to salvation had a tremendous appeal to the less than careful readers of the Bible, and the idea caught on and spread like wildfire throughout much of Europe and beyond—and has continued to hold appeal for many down to the present.

None, absolutely none of the passages in the New Testament that are thought by some to teach eternal security, when studied in the Greek New Testament and the moods and tenses are interpreted using the same linguistic principles used to interpret the rest of the New Testament, actually teach eternal security—and some of these passages are then seen to actually teach conditional security (see earlier threads in this forum on eternal security for examples). And, of course, there are scores of verses in the New Testament that, when carefully studied in the light of the vocabulary and phraseology of the Christian writers of the first and second centuries, very clearly and distinctly teach that a true and genuine Christian can lose his salvation.

Are you saying that anyone who calls on the name of Jesus is not saved?

LoveGodsWord · Feb 6, 2022

Trivalee said:
Since the beginning of this OP, I have vigorously argued that salvation can be lost and backed my case with several indisputable scriptures.

I responded to a comment made by a brother that those referenced in Heb 6:4-6 were not saved. In my rebuttal, l interpreted the text line by line to show they are truly saved.

It is noteworthy, that the author of Hebrews (presumably Paul) made a hypothetical case in Heb 6:4-6. The purpose was to show that if salvation is lost, it cannot be redeemed. That said, the NT is full of warnings about the consequences of failing to abide in Christ till the end of mortal life. If there is zero possibility of the saved losing their salvation, surely these warnings would have been unnecessary.

Paul even mentioned a few apostles that backslid and left the faith (1 Tim 1:19, 2 Tim 1:16).

Good posts and scriptures. Thanks for sharing them.

LoveGodsWord · Feb 6, 2022

klutedavid said:
Are you saying that anyone who calls on the name of Jesus is not saved?

No I think he is saying what has been shared here through the scriptures throughout this OP and that is there is no such thing as once saved always saved and that according to the scriptures if anyone chooses to depart the faith in sin and unbelief they will not be saved according to the scriptures already provided in this OP (e.g. Hebrews 3:9-19; Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 10:26-39 etc etc etc).

Clare73 · Feb 6, 2022

PrincetonGuy said:
John 15:6. “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.” (NASB, 1995)

John Calvin’s mistaken understanding of the sovereignty of God led him to deduce that the elect of God can do nothing to revoke their election, and he therefore added a whole lot of “fine print” to John 15:1-6 in order to bring it into harmony with his new teaching. Other Calvinists saw that Calvin’s fine print did not make sense, so they substituted their own fine print. Yet other Calvinists and Baptists have come along and decided that all of the fine print so far added needed to be edited or completely revised and have taken the liberty to do so.

And this adding of “fine print” has not been limited to John 15:1-6—it was added to more than 100 verses in the New Testament to bring these verses into harmony with the new teaching. This has been especially true regarding Hebrew 6:1-9. Indeed, it is very difficult to find even two Baptist scholars who agree what that fine print should say—but the volume of that fine print is massive and hugely diverse.

We are all free to believe as we choose, but the belief that none of the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers, and none of the thousands of teachers in the Church up to the 16th century—and all but a very small minority of them since then—were smart enough or spiritual enough to understand John 15:1-6, Hebrews 6:1-9, and the scores of other passages in the Bible that teach conditional security, is a wrong belief that is dependent upon a massive amount of “fine print” that contradicts not only the Scriptures, but contradicts itself in thousands and thousands of places!

Indeed, if the New Testament was so poorly written that even the doctrine of salvation could not be understood by anyone reading it during the first 1,500 years of the Church, the New Testament is not a collection of 27 books inspired by God—the New Testament is a collection of 27 books written my men with VERY poor writing skills!

My personal view is that the New Testament is a collection of 27 divinely inspired writings and that the doctrine of conditional salvation taught in them

Yes, salvation is conditioned on faith apart from faith's works, only the faith itself saves, not its works.

is taught so very clearly that it was universally understood for 1,500 years to be the teaching of the New Testament,

Like salvation by faith--"not by works" (Ephesians 2:8-9)
and righteousness (justification) "apart from works" (Romans 3:21, Romans 3:28, Romans 4:5)
was universally understood for 1,500 years to be the teaching of the NT?

WHY SALVATION CAN BE LOST

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