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GDL

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salvation is conditional to believing and following what Gods Word says

I recently finished a book published in 1999 from a thesis that analyzes the judgment according to deeds verses in the NT. The conclusion was how there is no tension at all in Paul with salvation by grace and a future judgment according to deeds. The gist of it goes along well with what you say in this quote, which I've agreed with since doing my own focused exegetical studies mainly on faith and salvation some years back.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Sounds like a wonderful study GDL. Do you have a pdf version? I would love to have a look at it. I like to see the technical sides of things as well.

God bless.
 
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GDL

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LoveGodsWord

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GDL

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Thanks GDL, I did not know you were a biblical scholar. It is so nice you can join us here at CF and share your thoughts here with us. Can I call you by your name here? My name is David btw.

Hi David. Gary. I wouldn't qualify as a scholar. By choice, no letters to follow my name. I'm a student in all of this and hope to remain so. Seminary trained in Greek exegesis, some Hebrew, but very practiced in Greek. Was around the scholarly realm for some time. Most of what I read is exegetical works by scholars and others. I understand their language. When I purchased some of the software systems years ago, I purchased the Scholar's Library and exegetical oriented systems with original languages materials. I mainly work in the Greek text. Also, an ordained Pastor-Teacher in the non-denominational arena. Taught for many years, but never took the formal Pastor role as it is normally practiced. Thanks for your words and your input to this medium. I enjoy reading your work and thinking. I've noted that you and SabbathBlessings both identify as SDA.

I don't know if you listened to that interview I linked, but in his book, he spends 2-thirds of it dealing with the thinking of Judaism pre-Paul and in his era. So, what was Paul exposed to in the advanced training he had been schooled under and how did the Jews speak in regard to some of the terminology Paul uses? From this, the author determined that some of Paul's terminology we wrestle with and still debate today, he says was just Paul speaking like the Jewish [scholar] of that time and some of the meanings are to be found in such studies. It was an interesting read and the "judgment according to deeds" the book was written about, turns into being something in-line with what we're discussing here. IOW, all is not concluded in this salvation by grace matter until the Judge renders His verdicts.

BTW, I pointed you to another thread earlier and I'm going to do it again for an interesting post pertaining to what we've been discussing here:

Faith, Grace, Works, and Law | Christian Forums

Thanks again, David.

G.
 
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GDL

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Sometimes simple is better but I like to talk about the detail as well.

IMO and experience, once the complexities are wrestled to conclusion, the accurate simplicity is found. It's all tough until it becomes simple through understanding more fully.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Sorry Gary, I have been away from here for a bit. Thanks for your nice and friendly post. I appreciate you sharing with us. It seems our independent study of the scriptures have brought us to the same place and belief in Gods Word. I am always amazed when I see how God can independently guide people in the study of His Word through His Spirit and they end up believing the same thing. I believe this is a part of God's new covenant promise to all those who have been born again into God's new covenant promise to believe and follow His Word as written in *Hebrews 8:11; John 16:13; John 7:17; John 8:31-36; John 14:26; 1 John 2:27 etc. I will try and get back here when I have some more time and look forward to continuing our friendly discussions of Gods' Word.

God bless Gary
 
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GDL

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I am always amazed when I see how God can independently guide people in the study of His Word through His Spirit and they end up believing the same thing.

NKJ Proverbs 1:23 Turn at my rebuke; Surely I will pour out my spirit on you; I will make my words known to you.

Parallelism.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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NKJ Proverbs 1:23 Turn at my rebuke; Surely I will pour out my spirit on you; I will make my words known to you.

Parallelism.
Yes like spiritual drunkenness (false teachings) versus being taught by God's Spirit...

Isaiah 28:1-16
[1], Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!
[2], Behold, the Lord has a mighty and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand.
[3], The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, shall be trodden under feet:
[4], And the glorious beauty, which is on the head of the fat valley, shall be a fading flower, and as the hasty fruit before the summer; which when he that looks on it sees, while it is yet in his hand he eats it up.
[5], In that day shall the LORD of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, to the residue of his people,
[6], And for a spirit of judgment to him that sits in judgment, and for strength to them that turn the battle to the gate.
[7], But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.
[8], For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.
[9], Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
[10], For precept must be on precept, precept on precept; line on line, line on line; here a little, and there a little:
[11], For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
[12], To whom he said, This is the rest with which you may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
[13], But the word of the LORD was to them precept on precept, precept on precept; line on line, line on line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
[14], Why hear the word of the LORD, you scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
[15], Because you have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing whip shall pass through, it shall not come to us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
[16], Therefore thus said the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believes shall not make haste.

Interesting scriptures when compared to Revelation 17:6; Revelation 18:1-5; Revelation 14:6-12.

God bless.
 
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Trivalee

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Yes Apostle Paul kept under his body, to not be a hypocrite. It is part of Holiness, but not to do with following all of the example.

Would you clarify what you mean by "but not to do with following of the example"?
 
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Trivalee

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If salvation could be lost, then we would all lose it because everybody is a sinner. Every person probably sins every single day.
We do not lose our salvation on account of the occasional sin. We lose our salvation when we wilfully fall away from 'faith' and stop following Christ and if death occurs in that state, that soul is heading to hell.
 
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Trivalee

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Because they "tasted" the heavenly gift meaning that they didn't fully receive it.
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


These are what stands out from the texts above:
  • "Enlightened" denotes those that have come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:3-4), i.e. saved and born again.
  • They received the "heavenly gift" such as the word of knowledge, the word of wisdom, the gift of healing, the working of miracles and prophecy, etc., see 1 Cor 12:4-10.
  • They have received the Holy Ghost.
  • They have "tasted the good word of God", IOW, they had discernment in the word of God.
If you believe that the Christians described in these passages are unsaved and not born, then you must be reading your bible upside down.
 
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Clare73

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  • "Enlightened" denotes those that have come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:3-4), i.e. saved and born again.
Not necessarily. . .knowing the truth and obeying the truth are two different things. Not necessarily. . .they have only tasted it, they do not feed on it.
If you believe that the Christians described in these passages are unsaved and not born, then you must be reading your bible upside down.
Or. . .you do not understand the true implications of what it states.
None of the above necessarily mean salvation.

They were on the border of "Canaan" and hesitating to go in (Hebrews 3:7-15).
 
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Trivalee

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Does not objectivity require that you also consider contrary passages that challenge your rash conclusion?
 
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Rapture Bound

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Trivalee stated in post #932, "If you believe that the Christians described in these passages are unsaved and not born, then you must be reading your bible upside down."


Here's my take on Hebrews 6:4-6 :

From my OJAJ ["once justified, always justified"], Molinist standpoint, Hebrews 6 was addressed to Jewish Christians [all those who claimed to place their faith in their true Messiah alone as the only sacrifice for sin]. Therefore, this group includes both genuine and professing followers of Christ ... directly aimed at the genuine, and indirectly applied to the nominal.

It appears that for various reasons, such as avoiding persecution, or temptation to join a Jewish [Judaizing] sect; they were in danger of making a tragic choice that carried a horrendous eternal consequence with it... if they should fall away, there would be no opportunity for repentance [Hebrews 6:6]..."For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins" [Hebrews 10:26] - What is that willful sin? ... the denial that Jesus Christ is the only acceptable sacrifice for their sin(s) [Hebrews 9:26].

"The righteousness which is of God" can only be obtained by virtue of being in 'union with Christ' [being found 'in him']. This righteousness originates from God through the faith[fullness] of Christ, and is imputed to all those who do not trust in their righteousness (or moral acts) in order for their justification, but instead have believed in Christ's. 2 Corinthians 5:21,"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

My viewpoint differs from the Calvinist position in that the vast majority [if not all - I've yet to come across one yet] of those adherents would say that this chapter is exclusively written to those who were merely professing followers of Christ. It is also unlike the Arminian view which claims that not only was Hebrews 6 directed at true believers, but some of them will actually apostatize [forfeit their salvation].

The hypothetical aspect of the warnings [expressed by the Molinist in the "can/won't model of perseverance"] contained in this chapter is clearly seen in the "if" of Hebrews 6:6 ... "if they shall fall away." Looking through the lens of the this OJAJ Molinist, this is not to say that the consequence for failure to heed the warning isn't real, but rather, no true believer will actually fail to take heed.

True believers will rightly fear the warning, they will acknowledge, and reason within themselves that God would be just in stripping them of the priceless free gift of eternal life that they had received; they will reflect upon His love for them, and the horrendous and painful means that their Messiah endured in order to purchase that gift. They will shudder and cringe at the very thought of putting their precious Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to "open shame" [verse 6]... "But beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak." [Hebrews 6:9].
 
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klutedavid

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Does not objectivity require that you also consider contrary passages that challenge your rash conclusion?
You need to ask yourself whether you can accept or deny the following verse.

Romans 10:13
For “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Do you believe this verse?
 
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Clare73

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So you've included in Hebrews 3:7-4:13 both
1) a warning to possessors of faith (believers), which warnings are how God preserves believers in OSAS, and are not an indication they can lose their salvation, and
2) a warning to professors (only) of the results of the apostasy of unbelief.

This is how all warnings in the NT regarding faith and/or salvation are to be understood, and not as indications that salvation can be lost.

. . .
 
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BibleBeliever1611

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We do not lose our salvation on account of the occasional sin. We lose our salvation when we wilfully fall away from 'faith' and stop following Christ and if death occurs in that state, that soul is heading to hell.
Wrong. We would definitely lose it on any occasional sin. Let's see what the Bible says...

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." - James 2:10
 
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Clare73

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Wrong. We would definitely lose it on any occasional sin. Let's see what the Bible says...

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." - James 2:10
We are not under the curse of the law in the New Covenant.

"No one will be declared righteous by observing the law, rather through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from the law has been made known" (Romans 3:20-21), a righteousness that is by faith from first to last (faith to faith), just as it is written, 'The righteous will live by faith,' (Romans 1:17), just as righteousness was imputed/credited to Abraham because of faith." (Romans 4:3; Genesis 15:6)
 
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