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Thank you GDL. This is exactly what I believe the scriptures teach. Many are always seeking to separate love and law and faith and works none of which are separated from each other as love is expressed in obedience to Gods' law from a new heart that loves according to Gods' new covenant promise (Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27). This is why Jesus says we need to be born again (John 3:3-7; 1 John 3:6-9). According to the scriptures, if we have genuine faith in Gods' Word we will do what God's Word says (Romans 3:31). Obedience to God's Word therefore, is the fruit of genuine faith that works by a new heart that loves both God and man. Well said!
God bless
This is a nice devotional thanks for sharing. I have expressed similar beliefs in my posts, although not nearly as eloquent.FWIW, I think Sue frequently expresses well some of what we are discussing here:
If Righteousness is What you Practice
Thank you for your reply.
That's the beauty of how these words are actually so woven together. If I may: "Doing good works for the purpose of getting in heaven will not necessarily get you into heaven without belief..."
At least in the main sense of "good works" in the NT, I don't think there are good works apart from belief (Biblical Faith). That's the point and reality of what this interwovenness results in.
Exactly, faith and works are not separate from each other. Genuine faith believes Gods Word and follows or obeys what Gods' Word says. Anything else is the dead faith of devils (James 2:17-26).
Please pardon me for saying so, I mean no disrespect, but I still read your statement as hedging. What I'm saying since my first post to you, is that there is a precision in God's Word that we need to conform to if we are to think His thoughts and from there speak His words.
For example:
If I say, "we show our love for God when we obey Him" - it's not necessarily the same as saying, "our non-burdened obedience to God is our Love for God" (1 John 5:3).A lot of expressed thoughts just to say I like God's precise statement in 1 John 5:3, which I think is John's precise commentary stemming from walking with and following Jesus and hearing things like Jesus stated per John 14:24.
- Depending on the thinking of the one saying the first statement, I am left wondering if this person thinks we can love God apart from obeying Him.
- And this goes into what Jesus spoke about regarding the Law - the Law works at the level of our thoughts, not just our actions.
- Being in Christ, having the gift of God's Spirit, having God's Law written on our hearts, is changing us to our core. He's dealing with the thoughts and intentions of our hearts, our will and desires. Hebrews speaks of our consciences now being perfected and the inability under the old priesthood and sacrificial system for this to be accomplished.
- I think all this is why John speaks of loving in truth in 1-3 John, which suggests that people can love not in truth, which in reality would not be Biblical Love.
- Unfortunately, people are good at acting. But not in God's eyes, and He doesn't like hypocrisy, so He's changing us in Christ, and He tells us with specificity that our non-burdened obedience to Him IS our love for Him - our actual willful obedience from our core with a new heart and His Spirit in us. I think this non-burdened concept is very important, because it speaks of this Love/Obedience being natural and effortless, because it's from who and what we are now in Christ.
- In essence He's telling us no more acting like you love Him, no more thinking we love Him just because we act outwardly in a certain way under Law that makes us, or others think we love God. At and from our core, as a new creation in Christ, our willful, natural, and knowledgeable obedience in Faith/Obedience and Love/Obedience to Him in truth, is what He's developing in us as He saves us.
- I also see this tied to what Jesus said in John 4, when 7 or 8 times He in a few verses spoke of worshipping God in Spirit and Truth - He spoke of that time being the beginning of the outworking of God's desire that true worshippers do this. The translational issue there is that "worship" does not convey the primary meaning of the word He used. It means to bow in obeisance [to a ruler - to God]. So, it's another discussion about our Obedience. Thus, it's another Faith and Love and Works [in Spirit and Truth] discussion put forth with great emphasis by Jesus Himself.
To be precise, at this point I don't think there is "getting into Heaven" apart from abiding Faith/Obedience/Love/Works for those of us who He does not take home soon after truly coming to Biblical Faith in Jesus Christ. I think this compares with the Loss of Salvation thoughts expressed by some here. What He does with perpetual infants in Christ, if there is such a thing, is another topic of discussion.
Just to be on the same page this is what I stated: Doing good works for the purpose of getting in heaven will not necessarily get you into heaven without belief, love, faith and obedience which results in good works.
You did not quote me entirely and I guess I don’t understand where you disagree with what I posted.
Regarding 1 John 5:3 I think loving God is expressed through obedience. We obey not only because it is a commandment, but because we love which changes our thought from the inside. Do you see it differently?
My skill set is street smarts not my writing abilities so sometimes things may get lost in translation.
I could possibly keep going here but I think the post will get a bit long so might stop here and it is late my time so possible I my post may not be making much sense. My apologies if this is the care. What are your thoughts to the above?
Apologies. I should have explained why I stopped at "belief." All I intended based upon what I have been saying was the rest of the words are included once Belief/Faith is mentioned.
I've only read some of your posts and just in this thread, so I'm still getting to know more of what you think.
My first check as I read your statement was the word "necessarily." I paused at this word and wondered what you were saying/meaning.
Coupled with the first check, my second check was whether or not you see good works as something that can be done apart from Faith, Love, Obedience to God.
I don't think 1 John 5:3 says loving God is expressed through obedience. I think it says Love for God is obedience to God - Love IS Obedience - Thus Obedience to God is Love for God. More precisely, Love for God is keeping (guarding, obeying) God's commandments. The verse is equating Love with Obedience. Nitpicking maybe, but that's the way I naturally study. "expressed through" are added words that weaken the equating IMO and I get a check when I read them. Can love for God be expressed through anything other than obedience to God (leaving out Love for one-another at the moment)? Love [for God] is Obedience [to God] is just a succinct statement.
Human communication abilities are weak in general IMO. Losses in translation and unexpressed or unclear intentions are the more general practice for all of us I'm afraid... And what happens if we use a word we both recognize but have differing thoughts of its' meaning when we use it? We think we're agreeing but may well be in disagreement.
This is a nice devotional thanks for sharing. I have expressed similar beliefs in my posts, although not nearly as eloquent.
I agree with what your saying here. However, when using the words "love is expressed through obedience to God's Word" I do not personally see a problem here if you consider the context it is used in and who it is shared with. I agree 100% with what you are writing here but in the context of some discussions with others their idea is that God's love is a feeling separated from obedience as if obedience is a dirty word when connected with love. So using the word "expressed" to me is simply just another way of saying love is not separate to obedience to Gods' Word or love to God is obedience to God. It is always refreshing talking with you GDL. In all of our conversations I feel I am talking to a kindred spirit
I hope you can consider staying GDL. I think many will benefit from your posts. I noticed I had not seen you around for a while so it was a nice surprise to see you pop in here. So I do sincerely mean what I say and hope you will consider staying around. I think many people could be blessed by your ministry here. But for me now I best be getting some rest. So happy to see you again. Good night for now dear friend from the other side of the world.Understood and I can see what's intended, but I have to think about it and consider the source as well as I'm able based in context and who is writing. Still causes a check in me as I read through a writing about what He says. "Is" and "expressed through" are not necessarily the same and thus require for me more thought and explanation to verify what's intended.
Thank you for your kind closing words. I took a long hiatus from this site & not sure yet if I'll stay. I came back solely to make a comment to a post from Sue Love in the Devotional section due to an email I received. Glancing through the threads briefly, I saw your identity on this one. Appreciating our past discussions, I clicked in only because of that. Thanks again for your work.
I addressed your post exactly.No false charge which is why you did not quote me saying I don't have faith in Christ only myself. You said that not me and that is false.
Well, that's the problem with your view. You SAID "when you are doing the will of God". That shows that you are trusting in WHEN you are doing the will of God.I do find it odd that you think doing the will of God is having faith in yourself and not Christ, but you are free to believe what you want.
No apologies needed, I understood what you meant after I had a chance to wake up and re-read your post and find a moment of quiet to reply. I appreciate your reply and you have given me a few things to think about. When I wrote the word "necessarily" I paused when I wrote that because I do not want to be presumptuous on the judgment or grace Jesus might give. I know there is clear scripture that faith/love/obedience is tied together, and I would also like to include baptism but if you have faith/love/obedience baptism is a given. That said Jesus will be our righteous Judge and it seems the thief on the cross could be an example of a possible exception, as we don't know much about him, if he was baptized. We know before death, he showed faith in Jesus and believed. Please do not get me wrong I am by no means advocating that that it all we need and "today" if we hear His voice (the Truth) we should not harden our hearts, it's a terrible idea to think we can do what we want and wait until the last minute to surrender to Jesus when no one knows what the future holds, and I truly believe if you love God with all your heart you will want to obey Him, because it is in your heart and mind and when I say obey, I mean obey on God's terms, not the one created by man for convenience purposes. I see many posters advocate only 9 out of 10 commandments or not believe in some of the other laws, like the heath guidelines that was given to us for our own good.Apologies. I should have explained why I stopped at "belief." All I intended based upon what I have been saying was the rest of the words are included once Belief/Faith is mentioned.
I've only read some of your posts and just in this thread, so I'm still getting to know more of what you think.
My first check as I read your statement was the word "necessarily." I paused at this word and wondered what you were saying/meaning.
Coupled with the first check, my second check was whether or not you see good works as something that can be done apart from Faith, Love, Obedience to God.
I don't think 1 John 5:3 says loving God is expressed through obedience. I think it says Love for God is obedience to God - Love IS Obedience - Thus Obedience to God is Love for God. More precisely, Love for God is keeping (guarding, obeying) God's commandments. The verse is equating Love with Obedience. Nitpicking maybe, but that's the way I naturally study. "expressed through" are added words that weaken the equating IMO and I get a check when I read them. Can love for God be expressed through anything other than obedience to God (leaving out Love for one-another at the moment)? Love [for God] is Obedience [to God] is just a succinct statement.
Human communication abilities are weak in general IMO. Losses in translation and unexpressed or unclear intentions are the more general practice for all of us I'm afraid... And what happens if we use a word we both recognize but have differing thoughts of its' meaning when we use it? We think we're agreeing but may well be in disagreement.
I don't blame her either. There are some other areas on CF that she might be interested in posting, like the 7day safehouse or other groups similar where the debating is really limited. I did really enjoy her write up on the devotional and sometimes it good to post in places like the general forum, but choose not to debate just to reach more people. Anyway, just some thoughts. Thanks again for sharing.I've mentioned to her that I'd like to see her posts in another section. Much of what she writes are really not devotionals as I view them, but very direct writings regarding Salvation. I know she doesn't want to debate. I don't blame her. Devotionals seems to be a good category to keep the discussions limited.
No apologies needed, I understood what you meant after I had a chance to wake up and re-read your post and find a moment of quiet to reply. I appreciate your reply and you have given me a few things to think about. When I wrote the word "necessarily" I paused when I wrote that because I do not want to be presumptuous on the judgment or grace Jesus might give.
It's so true, it's that small still voice! I appreciate you receiving the check and sending it back to me. It's a great reminder to listen to that small voice. Something I will spend some time contemplating in prayer.Thank you for this post. It was obviously thought out and a nice and informative read.
It's fascinating to read you say that you paused when you wrote that word. IMO these are the checks in spirit that we get with Him being in us leading and guiding us to degrees that many of us tend to ignore or get distracted or hurried to disregard. This is similar to the check I mentioned about reading that same word. So, you got a check and overrode it, which caused me to get a check and send it back to you!!! Thanks for the extra work!The older I get, and the longer I remain in The Faith, the more I try to pay attention to those pauses.
Wouldn't it be wonderful to always heed what He's telling us and finally realize how intricately He is involved with those who Love Him in Truth/Believe in Him with Biblical Faith/Obey Him/do those Works He created for us to do in Christ Jesus. Imagine the efficiencies when He sets His creation aright once and for all and we're functioning on full capacities with Him as He originally intended and designed...
We get that still small voice from Gods Spirit through the scriptures *John 6:63.It's so true, it's that small still voice! I appreciate you receiving the check and sending it back to me. It's a great reminder to listen to that small voice. Something I will spend some time contemplating in prayer.
I am looking forward to that day when everything is how He originally intended! It will be glorious!
God bless.
We also get eternal security through the Scriptures. John 5:24 and John 10:28.We get that still small voice from Gods Spirit through the scriptures *John 6:63.
Yes you keep saying this even after you have been shown all through out this thread that those scriptures do not say what you think they do.We also get eternal security through the Scriptures. John 5:24 and John 10:28.
Long time no see!Hi Clare:
What's the specific point you're trying to draw out here? Especially re: 13:10b.
Thanks!
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