Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
You've got some real pat answers here, don't you. You don't engage anything or anybody, really. You just say you don't believe them, but you FAIL to even attempt to refute anything they say.Sorry I do not believe you.
You've got some real pat answers here, don't you. You don't engage anything or anybody, really. You just say you don't believe them, but you FAIL to even attempt to refute anything they say. So, like Clare says, just more run around. That is all you do.
Of course this is true, but what is NOT TRUE is your presumption that our actions can lead to loss of salvation. And you haven't proven it with very clear verses.
Of course it is true. And I'm not the only one who is pointing it out to you. You are in denial.Sorry dear friend but that is not true at all.
FreeGrace2 said: ↑
You've got some real pat answers here, don't you. You don't engage anything or anybody, really. You just say you don't believe them, but you FAIL to even attempt to refute anything they say. So, like Clare says, just more run around. That is all you do.
Of course it is true. And I'm not the only one who is pointing it out to you. You are in denial.
Actually, your view is in direct conflict with Scripture. This is how and why.This statement appears to be in direct conflict with scripture
I have already shown that YOU have taken John 10:28 out of context by your flawed understanding of v.27, which is NOT a conditional clause at all.I see a lot of detailed responses from @LoveGodsWord so anyone here can do a simple look on this thread to know this statement is not accurate and his post was taken out of context here.
When truth is presented from Scripture and a person says "I don't believe you" meaning the verse presented, they ARE in denial.Also this is a Christian forum and I believe we are supposed to address the post, not the poster so claiming someone is in denial because you disagree with them, seems like we should avoid these types of comments.
I have already shown that YOU have taken John 10:28 out of context by your flawed understanding of v.27, which is NOT a conditional clause at all.
By correcting that flaw, we easily see that v.28 IS absolutely teaching eternal security.
When truth is presented from Scripture and a person says "I don't believe you" meaning the verse presented, they ARE in denial.
Even legalistic unbelievers, very moral, can obey commands of God. The problem is, that just won't work to get into heaven. Example: Matt 7:21-23.God is the authority on His Word and the Holy Spirit will teach us all things John 14:26 which is given to those who obey John 14:15-18, Acts 5:32
I've pointed out where your error is, that has led you to discount John 10:28 being a verse that plainly teaches eternal security. Are you now reading it correctly?The scripture is there for you to read.
Huh? Of course there is a lot more in the Bible. The full account of creation, the full account of the chosen people, the Jews. And the full account of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who provided salvation to anyone who will believe in Him for it.If God wanted His word to be two scriptures than the Bible would be a lot smaller than it is.
Even legalistic unbelievers, very moral, can obey commands of God. The problem is, that just won't work to get into heaven. Example: Matt 7:21-23.
What is needed are open eyes and ears.
I've pointed out where your error is, that has led you to discount John 10:28 being a verse that plainly teaches eternal security. Are you now reading it correctly?
Huh? Of course there is a lot more in the Bible. The full account of creation, the full account of the chosen people, the Jews. And the full account of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who provided salvation to anyone who will believe in Him for it.
Why are you so negative about the 2 verses I shared? They are CLEAR to those who have open eyes and ears. Are you seeing? Are you hearing? Maybe not. You will have to answer that.
But the truth has been fully explained. You can NO LONGER use your flawed understanding of John 10:27 to guide your flawed understanding of v.28.
When those blinders are removed and you are seeing correctly, you will understand that from the MOMENT one believes, they POSSESS eternal life. John 5:24.
And from THAT MOMENT that they possess eternal life, they SHALL NEVER PERISH.
That is what Jesus taught.
If you still don't agree, after having been corrected, then it appears that you are not open to correction at this point.
There is NOTHING in the Bible that says lifestyle is key to salvation, or that it even has a place in salvation.
Lifestyle is what comes, or ought to, after salvation, when the person IS already saved and secure.
You don't keep the commandments to work to get into heaven, you keep them because you love God
Are you absolutely sure about this?
If He created you in Christ Jesus to do good works and you don't do good works, or if you stop doing good works and revert back to your old ways, are you saved and getting into Heaven?
Is it just that we keep God's commandments because we love God, or is keeping His commandments the same as loving Him, and loving Him the same as keeping His commandments?
BTW, I'm enjoying your focus on obeying Him.
Wow. I said all that, and this is your response??? Are you not interested in a real discussion? Or just giving your opinion and silly questions.Do you think Saul and Judas will be in heaven?
otoh, you have no evidence that Judas ever believed. In fact, Jesus made clear that Judas NEVER believed.They once believed in Jesus.
I have to disagree with you. I proved that your view of John 01:28 was based on very flawed premise about v.27. With correction of that flaw, your premise of v.28 disappears.I have no blinders, because I believe in the teachings of the whole bible.
This is an unbelievably biased comment. I have PROVEN that your view of 10:27 was WRONG WRONG WRONG. But you act as if I'm wrong without even trying to prove that I am wrong.You have not really proved anything nor addressed the scripture posted other than one verse that you simply state your opinion.
Those who have entrusted (believed on Him) their souls to Jesus Christ based on what He has done for them HAVE RECEIVED and POSSESS eternal life and SHALL NEVER PERISH.What I do think we should take the warnings that Jesus gives seriously. Now we have time to make adjustments, but when He comes people will have already chosen sides. Revelation 22:11
So many people don't have any idea what Jesus was teaching here. The entire basis for the crowd's appeal for entering the kingdom was based on their works. Just like your ideas.Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
Funny you say that when you never address my verses and explain how and why I cannot be correct. Like the other poster, you just claim I'm wrong without any evidence.Funny you never address why would a saved person would want to break God's laws.
Well, wrong again. There is NO "clear Scripture" that supports anything you've posted.We will probably just have to agree to disagree because you will never convince me that I can live a sinful life and as long as I believe I will be saved, when clear scripture tells us otherwise.
Why do you judge me as if I'm out living like hell or something? Don't you know better than to NOT judge others?If you are willing to take that risk, that is your free will.
Apparently you don't even realize that this is merely expressing your confidence in yourself.We can be confident in our salvation when we are doing the will of God.
When one's confidence is in their "doing the will of God" as you have just admitted, that is the very essence and definition of legalism.Obeying God is not legalistic as you put it unless you want to call Jesus legalistic. John 15:10
God bless and take care.
Why are you so negative about the 2 verses I shared? They are CLEAR to those who have open eyes and ears. Are you seeing? Are you hearing? Maybe not. You will have to answer that.
But the truth has been fully explained. You can NO LONGER use your flawed understanding of John 10:27 to guide your flawed understanding of v.28.
When those blinders are removed and you are seeing correctly, you will understand that from the MOMENT one believes, they POSSESS eternal life. John 5:24.
And from THAT MOMENT that they possess eternal life, they SHALL NEVER PERISH.
That is what Jesus taught.
If you still don't agree, after having been corrected, then it appears that you are not open to correction at this point.
There is NOTHING in the Bible that says lifestyle is key to salvation, or that it even has a place in salvation.
Lifestyle is what comes, or ought to, after salvation, when the person IS already saved and secure.
Wow. I said all that, and this is your response??? Are you not interested in a real discussion? Or just giving your opinion and silly questions.
We know that King Saul WAS saved. In fact, Samuel came back from the dead and told him that he would join Samuel the next day. 1 Sam 28:19 - The LORD will deliver both Israel and you into the hands of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also give the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines.”
When Saul died the next day, he joined Samuel in Paradise.
otoh, you have no evidence that Judas ever believed. In fact, Jesus made clear that Judas NEVER believed.
John 6-
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)
In v.64 Jesus put together those who did not believe with "who" (the one who) would betray him.
Then, in v.70-71 Jesus makes that one of His 12 was a devil. Would Jesus EVER say that about one who had believed? You may opine so, but there's no evidence for it.
I have to disagree with you. I proved that your view of John 01:28 was based on very flawed premise about v.27. With correction of that flaw, your premise of v.28 disappears.
Yet, after I've gone all through that, you have nothing to say about it. Totally ignore it, in fact. That's not how to have a discussion. You can't ignore my points when I don't ignore yours.
This is an unbelievably biased comment. I have PROVEN that your view of 10:27 was WRONG WRONG WRONG. But you act as if I'm wrong without even trying to prove that I am wrong.
Those who have entrusted (believed on Him) their souls to Jesus Christ based on what He has done for them HAVE RECEIVED and POSSESS eternal life and SHALL NEVER PERISH.
The Bible SAYS this. But it is clear from your posts that you do not believe this.
So many people don't have any idea what Jesus was teaching here. The entire basis for the crowd's appeal for entering the kingdom was based on their works. Just like your ideas.
There is no mention of their faith at all. If they ever HAD believed in Him for salvation, He wouldn't have said "I never knew you".
Funny you say that when you never address my verses and explain how and why I cannot be correct. Like the other poster, you just claim I'm wrong without any evidence.
But, to address your silly question, of course saved people break God's laws. All the time. Are you that naive? King David raped and murdered. One Corinthian was sleeping with his step mother. Etc, etc. But you are in bondage to the erroneous thinking that lifestyle will get you either saved or condemned. Neither is correct. Both are a lie from Satan.
Well, wrong again. There is NO "clear Scripture" that supports anything you've posted.
Why do you judge me as if I'm out living like hell or something? Don't you know better than to NOT judge others?
I KNOW I'm saved because Jesus taught that those who believe (and I absolutely do believe in Christ alone for my salvation) possess eternal life. That means I RIGHT NOW possess eternal life.
And Jesus also taught that recipients of eternal life (they possess it) SHALL NEVER PERISH.
But you don't believe any of this. And I am using the very words of Jesus Christ as support for WHY I believe this.
Your opening on this thread that I'm responding to had this:
"because I believe in the teachings of the whole bible."
But you CAN'T believe the "whole Bible" when you don't believe the very words of Jesus.
Apparently you don't even realize that this is merely expressing your confidence in yourself.
"when we are doing the will of God" is the phrase that points to your confidence in yourself.
My only and total confidence that I will go to heaven when I die is based solely on the work of Jesus Christ on my behalf.
Do you see the difference between our faiths? I have faith IN Christ, and you have faith in yourself AS LONG AS YOU ARE DOING THE WILL OF GOD.
Well, I guess all I can say is, good luck. And I don't believe in any kind of luck.
When one's confidence is in their "doing the will of God" as you have just admitted, that is the very essence and definition of legalism.
Jesus taught salvation by grace through faith.
Please don't kid yourself.
You're going to have to prove this false charge before I'll believe anything else you post.You seem to twist a lot of things that I have not said so it doesn't make for a pleasant discussion.
Did I say that? No, I didn't. Go back and read my post. I was comparing what your confidence was IN with what my confidence is IN.For example, I have never said I do not have faith in Jesus, so if you can't quote me saying that, why would you make something like that up.
This doesn't agree or even line up with what you said previously. You SAID your confidence in your salvation was by doing God's wil.My faith is 100% in Jesus so when He asks me to do something to show Him love, I have faith enough to believe what He is asking is for my own good.
We all know this is just a cop-out excuse for leaving.Too many of these types of examples, less discussion on scripture so I am going to bow out of this discussion.
You're going to have to prove this false charge before I'll believe anything else you post.
I do find it odd that you think doing the will of God is having faith in yourself and not Christ, but you are free to believe what you want.Do you see the difference between our faiths? I have faith IN Christ, and you have faith in yourself AS LONG AS YOU ARE DOING THE WILL OF GOD.
Perhaps you misunderstood. I don't think we should ever stop doing good works or stop obeying. I don't think doing good works is what gets you into heaven. We are saved by grace though our faith, but someone who has true faith will be obeying. We don't obey to be saved; we obey because we love.
No misunderstanding, thanks.
I just find all the works, obedience, faith, love discussions to be hedging, so as not to pass the works fence that has been built by other than God. As you and many do, I try to learn from Him. I personally do not think He needs me to protect Him and what He says. IOW, He is always the Truth, no matter how much I or we get wrong. He establishes the truth about all topics, including "works."
As we both acknowledged one another's view on the importance of obedience, maybe I can approach this through the concept of obedience.
If one studies this Obedience to God topic, we find that most of the important terminology in the Word is connected to it. For example:
Now, you said that we don't keep the commandments to get into Heaven. So, the way I read you, we don't Obey God to get into Heaven.
If you study Faith, you'll find that it is directly correlated to Obedience. LGW and I discussed this on a thread some time ago.
As you've noted with some of the verses you've used, Love is keeping God's commandments. Therefore, Love and Obedience (keeping His commandments) are correlated.
Faith and Works are clearly correlated per James, even though many wrongly pit him against Paul. If Faith is correlated to both Obedience and Works, then Works and Obedience are correlated.
This list of Biblical words correlated to Obedience is extensive.
Yet, Faith and Obedience are directly correlated to one another in Scripture, so no Faith, no Obedience - no Obedience, no Faith, but unbelief. This is how the Word speaks.Yes, we have been/stand saved by grace through Faith (The full scope of Salvation and how Eph2 applies is another discussion). Yet Faith Works. No Works - no Faith - no Salvation - no Heaven. God is preeminent in all. Apart from Him we have and can do nothing. Yet He has structured aspects of Salvation for us to work with Him. If we don't work to produce what the root feeds us to do, do we not ultimately get pulled from the root, wither and get thrown into the fire? So, back full circle to the Loss of Salvation topic.
No Faith, or no abiding Faith, then no Heaven (loss of Salvation as this thread discusses).
- No Faith, then no Obedience, no Works, no Love - then no Heaven.
- All these words and the spiritual functions and actions they represent are inextricably woven together. Ultimately, a cessation or non-existence of one is a cessation and non-existence of all. They are different words, and they can be discussed and defined individually, but they are in reality all interwoven.
I agree with you. I don’t think I conveyed properly the meaning on what I meant previously so I have revised my post. Doing good works for the purpose of getting in heaven will not necessarily get you into heaven without belief, love, faith and obedience which results in good works. I can see how my post previously was confusing and I hope this clarifies my position. Thanks for sharing and great post.No misunderstanding, thanks.
I just find all the works, obedience, faith, love discussions to be hedging, so as not to pass the works fence that has been built by other than God. As you and many do, I try to learn from Him. I personally do not think He needs me to protect Him and what He says. IOW, He is always the Truth, no matter how much I or we get wrong. He establishes the truth about all topics, including "works."
As we both acknowledged one another's view on the importance of obedience, maybe I can approach this through the concept of obedience.
If one studies this Obedience to God topic, we find that most of the important terminology in the Word is connected to it. For example:
Now, you said that we don't keep the commandments to get into Heaven. So, the way I read you, we don't Obey God to get into Heaven.
If you study Faith, you'll find that it is directly correlated to Obedience. LGW and I discussed this on a thread some time ago.
As you've noted with some of the verses you've used, Love is keeping God's commandments. Therefore, Love and Obedience (keeping His commandments) are correlated.
Faith and Works are clearly correlated per James, even though many wrongly pit him against Paul. If Faith is correlated to both Obedience and Works, then Works and Obedience are correlated.
This list of Biblical words correlated to Obedience is extensive.
Yet, Faith and Obedience are directly correlated to one another in Scripture, so no Faith, no Obedience - no Obedience, no Faith, but unbelief. This is how the Word speaks.Yes, we have been/stand saved by grace through Faith (The full scope of Salvation and how Eph2 applies is another discussion). Yet Faith Works. No Works - no Faith - no Salvation - no Heaven. God is preeminent in all. Apart from Him we have and can do nothing. Yet He has structured aspects of Salvation for us to work with Him. If we don't work to produce what the root feeds us to do, do we not ultimately get pulled from the root, wither and get thrown into the fire? So, back full circle to the Loss of Salvation topic.
No Faith, or no abiding Faith, then no Heaven (loss of Salvation as this thread discusses).
- No Faith, then no Obedience, no Works, no Love - then no Heaven.
- All these words and the spiritual functions and actions they represent are inextricably woven together. Ultimately, a cessation or non-existence of one is a cessation and non-existence of all. They are different words, and they can be discussed and defined individually, but they are in reality all interwoven.
I agree with you. I don’t think I conveyed properly the meaning on what I meant previously so I have revised my post. Doing good works for the purpose of getting in heaven will not necessarily get you into heaven without belief, love, faith and obedience which results in good works. I can see how my post previously was confusing and I hope this clarifies my position. Thanks for sharing and great post.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?