Why pretribulation rapture may be wrong

[StartedAtEly]

YouTube - Why pre-tribulation rapture may be wrong

 

[1watchman]

I think one would do better to study the matter of pre-tribulation translation of the church rather than to speculate. If you should be interested in learning about it I have a paper which may help. You can write me. Look up always!

- 1 Watchman

 

[Simon_Templar]

I've studied, it ain't happenin.

 

[nChrist]

I've studied, and it IS happening. To help you out some:

The Tribulation Period was determined AGAINST Israel, not the Church which is the Body of Christ.

The Church which is the Body of Christ was not formed for wrath, rather for Salvation (escape from wrath).

The Great Restrainer (Holy Spirit) must be removed from the earth before the events of the Tribulation Period can take place. Every child of God has the Holy Spirit living in their hearts. In fact, that child of God has his or her heart sealed with the Holy Spirit, and no combination of powers can break that Holy Seal. There will be no Holy Seal to break in the Tribulation Period by those who take the mark of the beast because the Church which is the Body of Christ has already been Raptured Home to Heaven.

Think about it - especially about what Salvation means in this Age of Grace. The only way that many portions of Scripture about the Rapture can agree is with a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. However, I understand other views, and this certainly isn't any bar to fellowship. A short course of this topic would take years.

 

[Simon_Templar]

I've studied, and it IS happening. To help you out some:.

This is an issue that a lot of people are emotionally attached to. I admit up front that I have little respect for the pre-trib position from the view point of biblical scholarship or reason. I don't mean to offend, and I'll try not to, however, in my opinion there is virtually no basis for the pre-trib view in scripture and the things that are taught about it are outright made up, or simply rely on taking scripture grossly out of context.

I agree, however, that it shouldn't be a bar to fellowship.

The Tribulation Period was determined AGAINST Israel, not the Church which is the Body of Christ.

No basis for this idea in scripture at all. This is never stated anywhere, nor is it implied.

In fact, this idea only came into existence because the pre-trib view required it, and it is also partially based on a false dualism between the Church and Israel prevalent in some dispensationalist camps.

What the bible does teach is that both Christians and Jews will be terribly persecuted by the Beast and False Prophet (to use the revelation names).

The Church which is the Body of Christ was not formed for wrath, rather for Salvation (escape from wrath).

I agree with this point, but it is also irrelevant because the tribulation is not the wrath of God. The tribulation is a wave of terrible persecution unleashed by the devil through his servants, the Beast and the False prophet.

Christians will not suffer the wrath of God, but then neither will Israel, because by that point, all of them that remain will be Christians.

The Great Restrainer (Holy Spirit) must be removed from the earth before the events of the Tribulation Period can take place. Every child of God has the Holy Spirit living in their hearts. In fact, that child of God has his or her heart sealed with the Holy Spirit, and no combination of powers can break that Holy Seal. There will be no Holy Seal to break in the Tribulation Period by those who take the mark of the beast because the Church which is the Body of Christ has already been Raptured Home to Heaven..

The great restrainer is not the Holy Spirit. Again this idea has no basis in scripture. It is based purely on speculation designed to fit with the pre-tribulation view point.

The restrainer that Paul speaks about is described as both a personal entity and a thing. Further, it/he is restraining the Beast (who Paul refers to as the man of sin, the son of perdition). This identifies the one being restrained as the "8th beast" of revelation chapter 17, where we are told that he is currently held in prison in the abyss. Thus the restrainer is the prison itself, and also the angel who is given the key to unlock the prison.

It is undeniable in scripture that there are christians on the earth during the great tribulation. It is explicitly stated to be the case. In order to get around this, the pre-tribulation view point theorizes that these "tribulation saints" are the people, mostly Jews, who become saved after the rapture, during the tribulation.

However, if the Holy Spirit were truly removed, this would be impossible. Since the bible also explicitly tells us that no one can even say "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit, and it is also clear that it is the Holy Spirit who brings conviction of sin.
IF the Holy Spirit were removed, it would be impossible for anyone to be saved.

Some others have speculated that the restrainer is the Church itself. This is also unlikely at best given that the restrainer is referred to in the masculine gender, the restrainer is both an It, and a He. The Church on the other hand, is referred to as a she, because she is the bride of Christ, and is always represented as a woman (just as Israel was).

Think about it - especially about what Salvation means in this Age of Grace. The only way that many portions of Scripture about the Rapture can agree is with a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. However, I understand other views, and this certainly isn't any bar to fellowship. A short course of this topic would take years.

In my opinion, the facts are exactly the opposite. The only way the scripture about the rapture can agree is if they describe one single event that occurs after the tribulation when Jesus Christ returns to earth with judgement.

If you insist on holding the pre-trib view you must not only believe in two returns of Jesus (one to the clouds, and one to the earth afterward), you must also believe in two seperate raptures. This is because there are scriptures which explicitly place a rapture event occuring after the tribulation. In order for this to be true, there must be two, one before and one after. Essentially one at each return of Jesus.

I think this view makes no sense according to the scripture and I don't see any reason in the text at all to divide them into two seperate events. I think all of the scripture clearly refer to one return and one rapture that happen at the same time.

I have yet to see any scripture which contradicts that understanding.


*edit* I tend to use emphatic language such as "makes no sense" etc. This doesn't mean I think pre-tribbers are stupid. However, people get locked into a given view point. They are taught that view point and then when they study they see everything based on the assumptions of said view point.

I think the pre-trib view is essentially circular. Basically you have to believe it already in order to find it in scripture. You make certain assumptions because you believe it, and then you use those assumptions to interpet the scriptures.

If, however, you don't believe the pre-trib view, those assumptions don't exist and when you look at the scriptures, they don't remotely suggest the pre-trib view.

 

[nChrist]

Hello Simon_Templar,

We can agree to completely disagree on this issue, and it doesn't bother me a bit. I have close friends who also disagree. I don't have the time, space, or desire to present the voluminous material required for this issue, and neither do you. So, we can have fellowship in other areas and probably be in 100% in agreement that the most important thing that Christians have left to do in this short life is to share the Gospel of the Grace of God with the lost.

On the Rapture issue, we'll see soon enough and neither of us will care one way or another. We are one in the Body of Christ, and we will leave all of our differences, denominations, tags, and labels behind one day - and I think that time is growing nearer by the day. So, KEEP LOOKING UP!

 

[Simon_Templar]

Look up, for your redemption draws near. Words of great hope

 

[Sketcher]

The Tribulation Period was determined AGAINST Israel, not the Church which is the Body of Christ.

We've been grafted into Israel (Rom 9:6-8, 11:17-20).

The Church which is the Body of Christ was not formed for wrath, rather for Salvation (escape from wrath).

What would that make the tribulation saints then? Formed for wrath?

The Great Restrainer (Holy Spirit) must be removed from the earth before the events of the Tribulation Period can take place. Every child of God has the Holy Spirit living in their hearts.

In that case, how could you call it the Tribulation, since there would be no Christians around to persecute? But the Scripture teaches us that the church will be around to be persecuted (Rev. 13:10, 14:12-13).

 

[nChrist]

The Tribulation Period marks the end of this Age and Dispensation of Grace. Many people will be saved in the Tribulation Period, but they will be damned forever if they take the mark and worship the beast. As a result, many Tribulation Saints will be hunted and killed if they refuse. There will be many powerful witnesses (see Two Witnesses and the 144,000) testifying in the Tribulation Period, and people will be watching Bible Prophecy fulfilled before their very eyes, so believing will be easier than it is in this age. However, if fear overtakes them and they submit to the beast, they will be damned. That's the difference between Salvation in this age and Salvation in the Tribulation Period.

I won't elaborate or debate this issue, but I will repeat again that the Tribulation Period was determined against Israel, not the Church which is the Body of Christ. You should find this in Daniel. Daniel didn't have a clue about the Body of Christ because it was still a Mystery then. It remained a mystery until the Apostle Paul shared his revelation with the Twelve. I have no desire to debate this, so this will be my last post on this issue. I'm quite content to agree to disagree. So, if there is to be a debate on this issue, it will be without me. A couple hints to leave you with: 1- Look at the significance of (7), the 7 Year Tribulation Period, and (7) associated with Jewish marriage customs - Now Christ taking His Bride, The Church; 2 - Look in Revelation about who is the only entity that could be singing a certain song during the Tribulation Period - the Church; 3 - Who makes up the Heavenly Hosts behind Christ at His Second Coming?; 4 - The Church is not Israel and Israel has not been replaced by the Church. God made separate and unique promises to each that will be kept perfectly. -- That's all I wish to participate - have fun with your debate.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

The Tribulation Period marks the end of this Age and Dispensation of Grace. Many people will be saved in the Tribulation Period, but they will be damned forever if they take the mark and worship the beast. As a result, many Tribulation Saints will be hunted and killed if they refuse. There will be many powerful witnesses (see Two Witnesses and the 144,000) testifying in the Tribulation Period, and people will be watching Bible Prophecy fulfilled before their very eyes, so believing will be easier than it is in this age. However, if fear overtakes them and they submit to the beast, they will be damned. That's the difference between Salvation in this age and Salvation in the Tribulation Period.

I won't elaborate or debate this issue, but I will repeat again that the Tribulation Period was determined against Israel, not the Church which is the Body of Christ. You should find this in Daniel. Daniel didn't have a clue about the Body of Christ because it was still a Mystery then. It remained a mystery until the Apostle Paul shared his revelation with the Twelve. I have no desire to debate this, so this will be my last post on this issue. I'm quite content to agree to disagree. So, if there is to be a debate on this issue, it will be without me. A couple hints to leave you with: 1- Look at the significance of (7), the 7 Year Tribulation Period, and (7) associated with Jewish marriage customs - Now Christ taking His Bride, The Church; 2 - Look in Revelation about who is the only entity that could be singing a certain song during the Tribulation Period - the Church; 3 - Who makes up the Heavenly Hosts behind Christ at His Second Coming?; 4 - The Church is not Israel and Israel has not been replaced by the Church. God made separate and unique promises to each that will be kept perfectly. -- That's all I wish to participate - have fun with your debate.

Do you know that the new covenant was made with the house of Israel? Do you claim the promises of the new covenant?

 

[nChrist]

Do you know that the new covenant was made with the house of Israel? Do you claim the promises of the new covenant?

The Gospel of the Grace of God is for the entire world, including Israel. However, that does NOT mean that God won't fulfill ancient Promises He made to Israel. There is already a Heavenly Kingdom that I belong to - The Church Which is the Body of Christ. There will be an earthly Kingdom in the future, Israel will be the core of it, and Jesus Christ Himself will rule over the earth from the Throne of David in Jerusalem. Did you know this?

Isaiah 2:1-5 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah's house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many peoples shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Jehovah from Jerusalem. 4 And he will judge between the nations, and will decide concerning many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. 5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of Jehovah.


Isaiah 9:2-7 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwelt in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined. 3 Thou hast multiplied the nation, thou hast increased their joy: they joy before thee according to the joy in harvest, as men rejoice when they divide the spoil. 4 For the yoke of his burden, and the staff of his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, thou hast broken as in the day of Midian. 5 For all the armor of the armed man in the tumult, and the garments rolled in blood, shall be for burning, for fuel of fire. 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of Jehovah of hosts will perform this.


Micah 4:1-3 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. 2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

 

[Simon_Templar]

Generally there are two views that people commonly think of in terms of Israel and the Church.

Replacement (also known as supercessionism) in which it is believed that the Church has replaced Israel, and natural israel no longer matters or really has any place or promise.

The more dispensationalist view holds that the Church and Israel are seperate. Israel's promises still apply to natural Israel, and not to the Church, etc. In this view there is commonly thought to be a Church age, during which God works primarily in and through the Church which will end with the rapture, and then God will begin to work again in and through Israel.


Personally, I don't think either of these views are completely accurate biblically. They both have problems biblically.

There is another, third view which lies somewhere in between the other two that I think is the correct and the biblical view.

In this view the Church is understood to be not the replacment of Israel, but rather the continuation of it. Israel and the Church are the same thing. Gentiles are grafted in, but once in the Church, we are no longer gentiles. Likewise, in the Church Jews are not Jews in the old sense.
Paul said that Jesus Christ came to break down the wall of seperation between Jew and Gentile, and to make of the two, one new man.
Thus in the Church, there is neither Jew nor gentile in the old sense of those words becase we are new creations. We are a new kind of man.

Paul makes it clear that the Church is Israel. He explicitly says so. He also explicitly says that all Christians are 'spiritual jews' in the sense that they are children of Abraham by faith.

This does not mean that 'natural Israel' is replaced. Natural Israel was set aside temporarily because of their lack of faith and their refusal to accept the Messiah. God is bringing in a harvest among the gentiles because the Jews refused to believe. He is also using the harvest among the gentiles to make the Jews jealous, preparing them to be brought back to faith.

The promises to Israel are applicable to both the Church and to natural Israel in some degree. Finally when the fullness of time has come, God will bring back natural Israel and make them part of the Church.

Paul describes this using the imagery of an olive tree. Gentiles are a wild olive branch that is grafted into the tree. The Jews are the natural olive branch that was pruned out. Eventually that natural branch will be grafted back in.
However, the tree is, always has been, and always will be simply one tree.

There is no seperation between Israel and the Church, nor is natural Israel simply forgotten and abandoned.

 

[nChrist]

Hello Simon_Templar,

I lean toward the more dispensational view, but our views are much alike. There certainly wouldn't be anything worth arguing over or debating.

I personally think that the time for the Tribulation Period grows near. As Christians, our time on this earth may be growing short to witness to our lost friends and family. The question comes to mind: what would I do if this was my last day on this earth? Regardless of the timing of the Rapture, the days or years of our lives here are uncertain, so we should not put off important things that we know we should be doing.

1 Corinthians 15:50-58 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.


1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[Big Drew]

So...if the "Great Restrainer" is the Holy Spirit...and He's gonna be removed along with the Church...then how is it that there will be people saved during the Great Tribulation? No one comes to God on their own...He draws them...and if He is not here, then He is incapable of doing so. I've asked this question before, and someone said these will come to God through the reading of the scriptures...but, the scriptures in and of themselves, don't have the power to convict men's hearts...it's the Holy Spirit that does this...and with the Holy Spirit withdrawn, as pretribbers claim, then the Bible becomes nothing more than a compilation of literary works...just doesn't add up.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

So...if the "Great Restrainer" is the Holy Spirit...and He's gonna be removed along with the Church...then how is it that there will be people saved during the Great Tribulation? No one comes to God on their own...He draws them...and if He is not here, then He is incapable of doing so. I've asked this question before, and someone said these will come to God through the reading of the scriptures...but, the scriptures in and of themselves, don't have the power to convict men's hearts...it's the Holy Spirit that does this...and with the Holy Spirit withdrawn, as pretribbers claim, then the Bible becomes nothing more than a compilation of literary works...just doesn't add up.

No it doesn't. One of the roles of the Holy Spirit is to reprove men and women of sin and of righteousness. If this spirit is taken away we will be free to follow our own lusts without opposition and we will never be lead into the righteousness of God. As you have said, no one can come to God on their own unless the spirit leads then so this whole theory does not make sense.

 

[nChrist]

Think - when was the Holy Spirit sent/given?

How were Old Testament Saints Saved?

Faith in God has always been accounted as righteousness, so Salvation has always been by God's Grace through Faith in Him. The Tribulation Saints will have to endure to the end and refuse the mark of the beast.

I certainly don't pretend to understand it all, but Salvation will obviously be different after this Age of Grace is ended. Those saved in the Age of Grace have an indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and their hearts are Sealed with the Holy Spirit as an earnest of the Promises of God. No combination of powers in the universe can break the Seal of the Holy Spirit of God. Regardless of timing disputes, the Great Restrainer will be and must be removed for the events to take place in the Tribulation Period. Do you have a different explanation about who the Great Restrainer might be? I don't think so.

Ask yourself some questions about your own Salvation right now in this Age of Grace as a Born-Again from Above Christian. Start with: do you already have God's Promise of eternal life in Christ? If you are tortured or scared into doing something or saying something in this age, can your Salvation be removed? What must you endure to keep your Salvation in this Age? Answer - you are kept by God as a purchased possession of Jesus Christ. Now, make a comparison with the Tribulation Period and you'll know how fortunate we are to be living in this Age of Grace.

Romans 8:38-39 KJV For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.​

 

[Cris413]

I just have to add a little here. I believe we can be saved, yet perhaps not yet baptized in the Holy Spirit. I believe these are two separate events. Sometimes happening simultaneously and sometimes not.

Just as we can be saved and yet walking in the flesh outside of the Holy Spirit…choosing to be more active in the flesh and not yielding to the Holy Spirit.

My Pentecostal friends and I tend to disagree on this point. Which of course we can agree to disagree, but I have a very difficult time reconciling the idea that we are just “penciled in” the Lambs Book of Life…when we, by God’s grace through faith, accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior.

So I don’t believe that while we may backslide and yield to the flesh rather than to the Spirit…that we lose our salvation and our names erased from the Lamb’s Book of Life…then penciled back in once we start behaving ourselves…until of course the next time we blow it.

The second point I’d like to make is regarding the comment by Big Drew:

He draws them...and if He is not here, then He is incapable of doing so…

This is just me, but personally, I wouldn’t be so bold as to make any assumptions about what God can and cannot do. He’s God…I don’t really think there are any limitations to His authority, power and might.

I just love this:

Luk 19:40 But He answered and said to them, "I tell you that if these should keep silent, the stones would immediately cry out."

Even the rocks obey!

And as Magnum has already pointed out…OT Saints were saved by faith. Jesus, before Pentecost saved people…and the people marveled at His authority to save.

Luk 7:47 Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little."
Luk 7:48 Then He said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."
Luk 7:49 And those who sat at the table with Him began to say to themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?"
Luk 7:50 Then He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you. Go in peace."


Regarding the power of Scripture (or implied lack thereof). Scripture was given a long time before the birth of Christ and the Holy Spirit coming at Pentecost.

OT proclamation of God:

Isa 55:10 "For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven,
And do not return there,
But water the earth,
And make it bring forth and bud,
That it may give seed to the sower
And bread to the eater,
Isa 55:11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
It shall not return to Me void,
But it shall accomplish what I please,
And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.


Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Heb 4:13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.


This was so even before Pentecost….Interestingly, no mention of the “Holy Spirit” in the above Scripture. Is it just the “implied” work of the Spirit? IMHO..Truth is truth. I can read lots of stuff that is not the Holy Word of God which can have a profound impact on me and convict my conscience. I had a conscience before I was saved.

This is interesting…

Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God;
Eph 6:18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints--

No mention of the Holy Spirit in Hebrews but we do notice in Ephesians, the sword OF the Spirit…the word of God…and praying IN the Spirit.

I don’t think it’s too far a reach to consider, as the Godhead has ALWAYS been, to understand that God is not limited in how He operates. He operates through us, but He certainly doesn’t NEED us to operate…and He even uses the unsaved and the unrepentantly wicked according to His perfect will and purpose.

The Holy Spirit was not simply created at Pentecost…but is part of the Godhead, just as Jesus, from the before the beginning.

The operation of the Holy Spirit in the world that we now enjoy as Believers can change after the Body of Christ is raptured. Just as He operated during creation and in OT times…same Godhead…just a different method of operation. Just as God the Father and God the Son can and do operate from the Heavenlies now…so I also believe God the Holy Spirt can and will after the Rapture.

As God lifts His hand of grace and gives this world over to it’s wicked desires and the Antichrist has his brief moment running amuck…which can only happen if the Holy Spirit, His person, leaves the world…because Holy God and evil will not rule/occupy the same time/space. But this by no means hinders God. He is God!

Which is really interesting…once we start to consider how limited we are in our finite thinking regarding how God is outside of time/space…and the Battle is already won. It will be really awesome to me…when I get to stand before God and understand the eternal nature of God…the same eternal nature in which He created us. WOW!

I just realized…I’ve never thought of this before in these particular light….in the OT times, God the Father dwelt among His people in the Tabernacle. Then God the Son came in the flesh and dwelt among His people in the form of Jesus Christ. Then God the Holy Spirit came and dwells IN His people…

…outstanding stuff! Praise God for His greatness and His grace and mercy!

I guess my addition wasn't so little....

 

[nChrist]

Amen Chris413! Your post was beautiful and a real blessing. The power and ways of God are far beyond human comprehension, but it sure is pleasant to think about and study. I love God's Promise that His Word will never return void.

 

[Cris413]

Amen Chris413! Your post was beautiful and a real blessing. The power and ways of God are far beyond human comprehension, but it sure is pleasant to think about and study. I love God's Promise that His Word will never return void.

Isa 55:8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD.
Isa 55:9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.


And another of my favorites (there are just so many!)

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."


And thank you for your kind words Magnum. Just sharing a few thoughts and my beliefs. I know there are quite a few people that I respect and love dearly that may not agree with me…and that’s OK. We’ll all find out definitively…eventually.

Personally, I have no idea when the Rapture will occur. I strongly consider it will before Antichrist is revealed…but I firmly believe it will definitely be before God pours out His Holy and righteous wrath.

2Th 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
2Th 2:2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
2Th 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Some consider this “falling away” is the Rapture, however, I consider this is regarding the Great Apostasy. Even though we are in quite a state of apostasy currently…I believe the worse is yet to come...

…Perhaps this "falling away" will coincide with the Rapture…when there are no longer any true Born Again Believers present to maintain a presence of sound doctrine.

We are quickly headed to a “global” everything…including a global church/religion. The Emergent Church makes this even pretty evident.

Nonetheless…we are certainly in some pretty tumultuous times at the mo…and getting worse by the minute IMHO…and I’m not naïve enough to consider, we as Believers, won’t see some “tribulation” in the world leading up to the Great Tribulation.

Regardless…come what may, when it may…the just shall live by faith! Amen!

In the meantime...We watch and and endure to the end!

 

[Simon_Templar]

two problems with you're guy's reasoning.

#1 - Even if you could prove that it is possible for the Holy Spirit to be the restrainer, there is still nothing in scripture that suggests or implies this idea. It is still pure speculation.

This problem is really two problems. First is that you have no basis in scripture which suggests the idea that the Holy Spirit is the restrainer. You could just as well argue that the anti-christ comes from South America because it is possible...
The second problem is the reason why you do argue that the Holy Spirit is the restrainer.
There is no scripture which suggests this. The way people arrived at the idea was because they were interpeting scripture in the context of the pre-tribulation rapture idea.
Thus it is circular reasoning... I know the Holy Spirit is the restrainer because the Church will be raptured at this time, and I know the Church will be raptured at this time because the Holy Spirit is the restrainer.

you see the problem?

The other major problem with what you guys are arguing here is your response to the objection

-the Holy Spirit's active presense is required in order for people to come to salvation.
-your view requires that people come to salvation after the active presense of the
Holy Spirit is removed.
- therefore your view is a logical self-contradiction and is impossible

Your response is that people prior to pentecost were saved by faith, just as those after pentecost were saved by faith.

It would seem that the basic assumption here is that the active presense of the Holy Spirit did not come into the world until Pentecost, thus if people can be saved before that point, they can also be saved after the Spirit is removed.

The problem is that the basic assumption is wrong, and can easily be shown to be wrong in scripture.

The active presense of the Holy Spirit did not arrive, or begin at pentecost. It has always been here.

First, through out the Old Testament there are numerous instances in which it is directly stated that the Holy Spirit acted on, and/or through people. Thus his active presense must have been here.

Second, Jesus himself said, prior to pentecost, regarding the Holy Spirit "He has been with you, but he shall be in you."

This clearly indicates that the Holy Spirit was with people, and working with them, prior to pentecost. There is no indication in scripture that there has ever been, or will ever be a time when the Holy Spirit ceases to actively be present and work in the world.

The coming of the Spirit at pentecost should not be understood in terms of the Spirit arriving where he had not before been. Rather it should be understood in terms of the Spirit beginning a new work and being poured out in greater measure.


I think it is clearly evident if you follow the logical connections between scriptures that the restrainer spoken of by Paul is an angel. In fact, I don't think any other conclusion is likely given the scriptures that bear on the topic.

However, I would also like to point out a broader aspect of this.

When Paul speaks of this he says this phrase which often gets over-looked. "Even now the mystery of lawlessness is already at work".

This must be understood in relation to what Jesus says in Matthew about the signs of the end. "because of the increase of lawlessness, the love of many will grow cold."

And what John said in 1 John "Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour."


The first point is that we are in the "end times" right now. The end of the age began with Jesus Christ and has been going on ever since. This is clearly shown by what John says, as well as a few other similar comments in the NT.

Realize now that the work of the spirit of anti-christ, and the 'mystery of lawlessness' is not waiting to begin at some future event. It began all the way back then and has been going on ever since and gaining in strength ever since.

All of this, of course, has been going on along side the work of the Church and the Holy Spirit working through the Church.

Up to this point in history the Church overcame the spirit of anti-christ and the mystery of lawlessness. However, in our lifetimes we have already seen a time when the power of evil has drastically increased and as a result, faith, hope, and love are growing cold.

This is not because the Spirit, or the Church, have been, or will be removed. It is because God unleashed the spirit of anti-christ at its appointed time, and is allowing it to run its course. It will reach its zenith when the angel who guards the abyss opens it and releases the beast who is currently locked within it.

PS.
The real irony of this whole conversation is that the entire point of the passage we are discussing in 2nd Thessalonians 2 is that the rapture can not occur until after the man of sin is revealed.
The historical context is that a false teaching had come to the Thessalonian Church telling them that the end had already occured and the rapture had already taken place. Paul's entire point is to set this idea strait and show them how they can know that the rapture had not taken place.