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Why people reject the reality of Hell

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P1LGR1M

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In view is physical death for violation of the Covenant of Law.

Do you also teach that men can receive Eternal Life through keeping the Law?

Please answer, because you have to in order for you impose an eternal context into this passage.


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P1LGR1M

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I agree, but you completely ignored the points raised in the post to show that "the dead" do not have life, despite the fact that they are resurrected from the dead prior to being cast into the Lake of Fire:


Revelation 20
King James Version

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Do you really not see that the Second Death has power on those who are dead who are not resurrected at the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom?

Do you really not see they are resurrected?

Do you really not see that there are those on whom the Second Death will have no power over and those it will have power over?

Do you really not understand the difference between men having life through Christ and men not having life through Christ despite whether they are physically alive or dead?


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P1LGR1M

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It is the same: the rich man is in torment. He has not ceased to exist. He is not going to receive the life of Christ.

He will be resurrected from the dead at which time his spirit will be reunited with his body, and he will have physical life again as opposed to being a spirit in Hades suffering everlasting torment (everlasting because it will continue for eternity in Hell, the Lake of Fire).

His works will be judged and if he is not found in the Book of Life he will be cast into the Lake of Fire:


Revelation 20:11-15
King James Version

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Only those who are written in The Book of Life will enter into the Eternal State:


Revelation 22:19
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


Those not found in the Book of Life will be cast into the Lake of Fire, which is the Gehenna Hell Christ teaches about in numerous passages, and teaches as an enduring punishment, not annihilation, and not a form of purging or cleansing.

Believers are cleansed by the Word of God, not fire.

And only believers will be found in the Book of Life.


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P1LGR1M

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JulieB67 said:
There's no resurrection in the LOF. Totally unbiblical and once again goes against our Father's and Christ's teaching.
Click to expand...

Nice try:

P1LGR1M said:
They are resurrected and cast into the Lake of Fire. The Beast and the False Prophet go into the Lake of Fire alive.
Click to expand...

P1LGR1M said:
but when this man is cast into the Lake of Fire, he will be resurrected as taught in Revelation 20. Both body and soul (person) will be in torment forever.
Click to expand...

These statements are given in the order they are in the post, and it is pretty clear that their resurrection takes place prior to their being cast into the Lake of Fire.

I agree, there is no resurrection in the Lake of Fire, but that doesn't change the fact that the lost, who are dead (yet still in existence in Hades/Sheol awaiting Eternal Punishment) are resurrected and like the Beast and the False Prophet are cast alive into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 19:20).

And, as I explained in the post you responded to, being "alive" does not equate to having Eternal Life.

Only those who are born again have Eternal Life.


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P1LGR1M

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Actually, those are John's words.

Christ called it Gehenna.

I've put my statement back into the context in which you pulled it from, and I am surprised to learn you think the Lake of Fire is a physical place in this universe.


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P1LGR1M

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So, if God doesn't want to do something, that means He won't do it?

Is that the point you seek to make?

Guess by your reasoning you must not think God would manifest in the flesh and die in the stead of the sinner, either:


Hebrews 10:5-9
King James Version

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Sorry, but I don't see this as valid reasoning, but human reasoning with an intent to ignore the Whole of Scripture.


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P1LGR1M

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JulieB67 said:
I'm sure you've read these verses but have you ever really taken them to heart??
Click to expand...

Actually, no, because I am in relationship with God through the New Covenant, not through the COvenant of Law, and that is what is in view in Ezekiel 18: physical death for violating the Law, not Eternal Punishment for rejecting the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

JulieB67 said:
God doesn't even want the wicked to perish.
Click to expand...

He didn't care much for animal sacrifice, either, but He established it as the Old Testament means for remission of sins.


JulieB67 said:
Yet you think he would torment someone for an eternity?
Click to expand...

No, actually, I dont. Their torment cannot be charged to God.

He will separate them from Himself for eternity, and their torment will be according to their own works.


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P1LGR1M

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Again, that He doesn't want any to die doesn't mean that they won't.

And again, all men are dead when they are conceived and born. Hiw will for men is that they believe in His Son:


Acts 4:11-12
King James Version

11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


Acts 17:30-31
King James Version

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.


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P1LGR1M

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So let's see what else Peter says in this chapter:


2 Peter 3
King James Version

1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,


Having just concluded a chapter about false teachers, Peter now turns his focus to Scoffers, and it should be noted those walking after their own lusts are rejecting the teachings of Scripture (as the false prophets of old and the false teachers of Peter's day) so Peter exhorts that they keep the Scriptures and the commandments of Christ in mind when faced with those who reject what Scripture teaches.

He goes on to give the example:


4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.


5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:


6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:


A flood? What nonsense, the scoffer says. Why that's just bronze-age thinking.

Christ is returning? What nonsense, nothing has changed at all.

Eternal Punishment? What nonsense, Christ never taught that! All those verses that have Him teaching about an unending punishment and unending fire and unending separation from God and men being dead when we know they are alive just don't mean what they say. Just as a promise of His return doesn't mean what it says.


7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.


Don't believe them, Peter says. The earth was destroyed in a flood, and as he mentioned in chapter two those who were destroyed are still awaiting the blackness of darkness forever.

The Day of Judgment has not yet arrived, and this because of God's longsuffering.

And Peter keeps the teaching of Christ, speaking of the destruction of of ungodly men.



8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.


God can wait. Time is meaningless to the Eternal God.

It only has meaning for men.

WHile the scoffers think it has been such a long time since the promise was made, and that because it hasn't been fulfilled yet this means it won't be, Peter makes it clear:



9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

He will fulfill His promises.


10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


It's not a coincidence that Eternal Punishment often speaks of the heavens and the earth passing away.

They pass away and the dead are judged according to their works.

I don't guess it is necessary to repost the Great White Throne, since it has been posted numerous times already, but—I'll do it anyway:


Revelation 20:11-15
King James Version

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Take careful note that those that end up here are dead, and those not found in the Book of Life are cast into the Lake of Fire. Those that have life will never face this judgment.

I guess the concept of having Eternal Life through Christ by believing in Him is somewhat a mystery for some.

It shouldn't be:


John 6:53
King James Version

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:


John 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?


That's the question of the day: who believes that men must believe in Christ in order not to die?

Who believes that Christ meant what He said when He said that those who do not believe in Him do not have life?

Who believes that God sent His Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life?

Not scoffers.


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P1LGR1M

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JulieB67 said:
I was taught as you believe once
Click to expand...

No, actually you weren't.

Because if you were, you'd understand that there is a difference between being alive and dead.

You would understand Christ's teaching that only those that are in Christ are alive in an eternal context, and that those who are cast into the Lake of Fire are cast in alive but without Life.


JulieB67 said:
but it doesn't hold up biblically at all if we take the bible as a whole and especially verses like in Ezekiel and Christ's teachings in Matthew 10:28 and Revelation 20.
Click to expand...

And you completely ignored what was said in my response to you in regards to these passages and then make this declaration?

That is what doesn't hold up.


JulieB67 said:
That completely nails down what happens to the soul.
Click to expand...

Correct: they are in a state of destruction in the Lake of Fire.


JulieB67 said:
It dies/is destroyed fully if we go by the first defintion in the Greek.
Click to expand...

Oh, the "first definition in the Greek."

Gotcha.

We don't need to look at all Biblical usage of the word and determine the context of the passages the word is found in.

We don't need to bother with the rest of the Whole of Scripture, but can toss out those passages that use terminology that are pretty evident as describing an enduring torment, like day and night and forever and ever.

We can go to Ezekiel 18, before the fuller revelation of Eternal Judgment is given in the New Testament and use what is obviously referring to a phsyical/temporal context to conclude that being dead means a cessation of existence, even when the Old Testament makes it clear that those who died physically didn't cease to exist.

Moses surely died, and yet he appears on the Mount of Transfiguration.

Why is it that this principle you seek to teach is inconsistent with that?


God bless.
 
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FineLinen

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The only animals the Master is speaking in this awesome chapter in two clean animals.

Take 9 =

Everlasting punishment

Search = "everlasting punishment"

Results = 1 verse found (Matt. 25:46)

The five (5) qualifications for aionios kolasis/ everlasting punishment according to the Master of reconciliation =

1.________________?

2.________________?

3.________________?

4.________________?

5.________________?

Note the context.

1. Why pure virgins? (5 wise & 5 unwise), but virgins!

2. Why two clean animals rather than 1 clean and 1 unclean?
 
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FineLinen

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The beginning is God, the ending is God. He swallows all death into Himself in one big gulp!

Our Father is the ta panta of the all.
 
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P1LGR1M

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FineLinen said:
The only animals the Master is speaking in this awesome chapter in two clean animals.
Click to expand...

Maybe you can show me where that is found.

Here are the animals mentioned in Matthew 25:


Matthew 25:32-33
King James Version

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.


If you want to view these as "two clean animals," okay.

Butit is pretty obvious that this is imposing into the text that which isn't there, and ignoring what is actually there.

Most notice that the five foolish virgins, the unprofitable servant, and the Goats are all excluded from the Kingdom of God.


Matthew 25
King James Version

1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.


11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.


No two clean animals there.

Just a warning that there will be those who are not known of Christ who will be shut out of the Kingdom.



14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.


Again, the reason for the parable is given, and summed up in "The Kingdom of Heaven is like unto this..."


24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Again, intended to warn those who take a wrong view of Christ that there will be those who will be cast into outer darkness, called by Peter and Jude "the blackness of darkness" which shall be forever.

No two clean animals there, either, just one wicked servant that took the opinion that the Just Judge of Men is an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed.

Sounds quite a bit like a universal salvation argument: a God Who is love would never cast men into outer darkness forever.

But that is precisely what it says.

So again, where are these two clean animals you keep speaking about in Matthew 25? So far I only see what Scripture calls dogs and pigs that have never been converted, and are thus thrust out of the Kingdom of God and Heaven.

Here are the two animals that are mentioned:


Matthew 25:32-33
King James Version

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.


And their fate?


46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


So if you believe that the everlasting punishment of those the Lord does not know isn't everlasting, then you must equally believe that the righteous will not receive Eternal Life either.

Of course, when someone reads this chapter and only sees two clean animals we have to ask how it is such clear teaching of Christ is hidden from them.

So again, as has been asked since you first started posting this as though somehow Take 9 is going to insert two clean animals into the chapter—where exactly are these two clean animals?


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P1LGR1M

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FineLinen said:
Take 9 =
Click to expand...

Would you mind posting the other 8 "takes" and the responses for them, to show that you have asked this/these question/s without response?

Tell you what, I will post them myself, and we can look at the course of the discussion together:







P1LGR1M said:
You know, that is a very real possibility: it does get a little boring addressing the same arguments over and over.

Yawn...

Click to expand...


P1LGR1M said:
...has been shown to be in error?

How then does their worm die? How then is the fire quenched?
Click to expand...

P1LGR1M said:
I told you...
Click to expand...



P1LGR1M said:
How is this relevant to "The one passage of Scripture addressing everlasting punishment by Jesus Christ?"

Perhaps you would show me two clean animals in Matthew 25?


God bless.
Click to expand...





P1LGR1M said:
We can't note the context unless you actually provide what Scripture you are referring to.

Where are the two clean and one unclean animals in Matthew 25?


God bless.
Click to expand...

FineLinen said:
Focus Lion: we are speaking of the one single passage of Scripture regarding "everlasting punishment".

Matthew 25:46
Click to expand...



FineLinen said:
Instead of posting with walls of Scripture, take a season and examine what the koine theion and theioo means and report back your results.
Click to expand...


P1LGR1M said:
I have been giving short posts. Which of those have you responded to with a direct response to the points made?

You keep posting this:
Click to expand...

P1LGR1M said:
And you will not answer a simple question:

What animals do we find, other than Sheep and Goats—in Matthew 25?

God bless.
Click to expand...





So there it is. The entire conversation. I see your post being answered yet you still repost it without responding to the responses.

Would this be spamming?

And I am wondering where Take 5 and Take 7 are.


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P1LGR1M

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FineLinen said:
Everlasting punishment

Search = "everlasting punishment"
Click to expand...

As already addressed, trying to disprove Everlasting Punishment by requiring these English words and ignoring the rest of the teachings of Christ and Scripture doesn't even reach a level that can be called an argument from silence.

Why no response to this:


P1LGR1M said: ↑
The one passage addressing everlasting punishment.

That's a good error to address first:


Mark 9:43-44
King James Version

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.


Here is a second of many passages addressing everlasting punishment.

What are you going to do with it?


Everlasting Punishment is taught in many passages that have been presented over and over again.

Yet you continue spamming the same post.


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Jipsah

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P1LGR1M said:
I agree, but you completely ignored the points raised in the post to show that "the dead" do not have life
Click to expand...
So you're chucking dead bodies into the inferno. Isn't that akin to flogging that proverbial dead horse?

despite the fact that they are resurrected from the dead prior to being cast into the Lake of Fire:
Click to expand...
And the LOF is the second... what was that again?The second eternal torment?
 
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P1LGR1M

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FineLinen said:
Results = 1 verse found (Matt. 25:46)
Click to expand...

In Matthew 25 alone, we have several mentions of everlasting punishment:



Matthew 25
King James Version

1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.


11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.


There's one.


14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.


26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:


27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.


28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.


29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.


30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


There's the second.


31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


There's the third.


46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


And this is the fourth time Christ mentions Everlasting Punishment.

He only needs to use the words everlasting punishment once for the same concept He is teaching throughout the entire chapter.

And still no mention of two clean animals to be found anywhere.

So how is it that what you are teaching, which isn't found in the text, and what the Lord is teaching, which is found in the text—are in such direct conflict with each other?

I've asked numerous times for you to answer these questions, yet you continue spamming the same post. Why is that?


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P1LGR1M

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Jipsah said:
So you're chucking dead bodies into the inferno. Isn't that akin to flogging that proverbial dead horse?

And the LOF is the second... what was that again?The second eternal torment?
Click to expand...

Obviously you didn't read the post, so I will give you an opportunity to do so, and you will see why I never said dead bodies were cast into the Lake of Fire.

If you really need me to point out in the posts why your charge is false, as well as your argument, I will be glad to do so, but it should be easy enough for you to see your error for yourself.

Why is it that those who embrace universal salvation and annihilation must repost the same arguments when those arguments have been addressed?

And how is it that they can do this without realizing their questions are answered in the very posts they quote?


God bless.
 
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