Why Paul?

[rightlydividingtheword]

Why Paul? My question deals with the apostleship of Paul.
The twelve(peter,james,john etc..) all preached a message that was foretold in the Old Testament Prophets.
Paul's message was totally unprophesized, unlike the twelve apostles(whom the earthly Jesus choose.
Can anyone find any scripture where Paul preached the Kingdom message?
Here's a thought ABRAM (gentile name) changed to ABRAHAM (jewish name)
SAUL (jewish name) changed to Paul (gentile name).Paul is the apostle to the gentiles period. He has a unique apostleship that was commissioned by a Heavenly Jesus with a message exclusively to the body of christ.IF it was the same gospel(good news) there wouldn't be any need for christ to comission Saul a (chief Blasphemer) to do the same thing the twelve were comissioned to.Think about it for a second.

 

[whitestar]

Why Paul? My question deals with the apostleship of Paul.
The twelve(peter,james,john etc..) all preached a message that was foretold in the Old Testament Prophets.
Paul's message was totally unprophesized, unlike the twelve apostles(whom the earthly Jesus choose.
Can anyone find any scripture where Paul preached the Kingdom message?
Here's a thought ABRAM (gentile name) changed to ABRAHAM (jewish name)
SAUL (jewish name) changed to Paul (gentile name).Paul is the apostle to the gentiles period. He has a unique apostleship that was commissioned by a Heavenly Jesus with a message exclusively to the body of christ.IF it was the same gospel(good news) there wouldn't be any need for christ to comission Saul a (chief Blasphemer) to do the same thing the twelve were comissioned to.Think about it for a second.

I don't understand what you are talking about...the twelve preaching what message foretold in the OT? That Jesus was the Messiah? Paul did the same thing...you need to explain more in detail of what you are talking about. Thanks

God bless
WhiteStar

 

[eph3Nine]

I don't understand what you are talking about...the twelve preaching what message foretold in the OT? That Jesus was the Messiah? Paul did the same thing...you need to explain more in detail of what you are talking about. Thanks

God bless
WhiteStar

Welcome to the "Dispensational Forum"...where it is always wise to read some of the threads to find whats being taught and how it is supported by the scriptures.

The 12 were appointed by Jesus in His ministry on EARTH to present a message to a NATION. It was called the KINGDOM GOSPEL. It was limited to JEWS alone.The Jews were the ones told to expect a MESSIAH.

There is ONE who is appointed by God to preach a DIFFERENT message. It is from NOT the earthly Christ (who told us that while He was ON the EARTH , his ministry was ONLY to the lost sheep of the House of Israel), but the RISEN Lord of Glory. This is called the Gospel of the GRACE of God , or the MYSTERY, which was hid in God and kept SECRET until due time.

Paul is the due time testifier and the apostle that God chose to give NEW information to we, the Body of Christ. He was given information that Peter and the boys and Israel simply didnt HAVE!

The MYSTERY gospel is the gospel that saves TODAY, as the gospel made to Israel is no longer on the table.

Have YOU heard of the dispensation of the GRACE of God? Its certainly NOT The same gospel preached by Peter and the boys or the earthly Jesus. NO NO NO.

So...maybe tis YOU who should do a bit more studying. If you disagree, then show us with scripture where we are wrong...we will be more than happy to change our minds.

Thanks for stopping by.

 

[whitestar]

Welcome to the "Dispensational Forum"...where it is always wise to read some of the threads to find whats being taught and how it is supported by the scriptures.

The 12 were appointed by Jesus in His ministry on EARTH to present a message to a NATION. It was called the KINGDOM GOSPEL. It was limited to JEWS alone.The Jews were the ones told to expect a MESSIAH.

There is ONE who is appointed by God to preach a DIFFERENT message. It is from NOT the earthly Christ (who told us that while He was ON the EARTH , his ministry was ONLY to the lost sheep of the House of Israel), but the RISEN Lord of Glory. This is called the Gospel of the GRACE of God , or the MYSTERY, which was hid in God and kept SECRET until due time.

Paul is the due time testifier and the apostle that God chose to give NEW information to we, the Body of Christ. He was given information that Peter and the boys and Israel simply didnt HAVE!

The MYSTERY gospel is the gospel that saves TODAY, as the gospel made to Israel is no longer on the table.

Have YOU heard of the dispensation of the GRACE of God? Its certainly NOT The same gospel preached by Peter and the boys or the earthly Jesus. NO NO NO.

So...maybe tis YOU who should do a bit more studying. If you disagree, then show us with scripture where we are wrong...we will be more than happy to change our minds.

Thanks for stopping by.

Uh...are you sure you are addressing me? All I did was ask him to explain what he was talking about and I get told I need to do some more studying? Because I can't read someone's mind? That was a pretty darn rude post you did to me...I think it was uncalled for...I simply asked him some questions.... unless there is some rule on here that its wrong to ask questions, that is...

I notice no one else it jumping in to answer him...probably because they can't read his mind either...I would have been glad to help if I knew what he was talking about.

 

[whitestar]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism

Dispensationalism is a conceptual overview and interpretive framework for understanding the overall flow of the Bible. As a branch of Christian theology, it teaches biblical history as a number of successive economies or administrations under God known as "dispensations," and emphasizes the continuity of the Old Testament covenants God made with the Jewish people through Abraham, Moses and King David. Dispensationalist Christian eschatology emphasizes a premillennial futurist view of prophecy of the "end times" and a pretribulation view of the rapture.

Dispensationalism stands in contrast to Covenantalism or Covenant theology in understanding the Bible. Regarding the theological status of modern Jewish people, dispensationalism rejects supersessionism (also referred to as Replacement Theology); hence many dispensationalists believe in restorationism.

Now what this has to do with Paul vs Jesus I have no clue...

 

[eph3Nine]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism

Dispensationalism is a conceptual overview and interpretive framework for understanding the overall flow of the Bible. As a branch of Christian theology, it teaches biblical history as a number of successive economies or administrations under God known as "dispensations," and emphasizes the continuity of the Old Testament covenants God made with the Jewish people through Abraham, Moses and King David. Dispensationalist Christian eschatology emphasizes a premillennial futurist view of prophecy of the "end times" and a pretribulation view of the rapture.

Dispensationalism stands in contrast to Covenantalism or Covenant theology in understanding the Bible. Regarding the theological status of modern Jewish people, dispensationalism rejects supersessionism (also referred to as Replacement Theology); hence many dispensationalists believe in restorationism.

Now what this has to do with Paul vs Jesus I have no clue...

We KNOW what dispensational means! Stick around and read some of the threads in here. And "LISTEN"...."faith comes by HEARING and hearing by the Word of God."

If you want to know what we as dispensationalists believe, READ the posts here, or simply ask us. God is a dispensationalist, by the way. Its a biblical word and requires some study to understand. Not hard tho...actually very easy.

The ministry of Christ on Earth had to do with an EARTHLY KINGDOM and the Nation Israel.

Paul had NEW information for a heavenly people, which was called a MYSTERY and which has the power to establish you in your christian faith.

Romans 16:25 "Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my (Paul speaking here, and this gospel is different than that preached by Peter and the boys and Christ in His earthly ministry)gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

You probably haven't heard this preached in your church because the majority of christendom doesnt distinguish between Peter and Pauls gospel as they should. They have been lulled into "church tradition" and satans plan of evil in keeping the MYSTERY truths obscured.

However, it IS in the Bible and it IS what God tells us NOT to be ignorant about. Unfortunately, most believers ARE just that...ignorant. This doesnt imply that anyone is stupid...no no no....but they ARE untaught.

Paul has fourteen doctrines to give to we the Body of Christ, of which the existance of the BODY of CHRIST is but ONE component. You wont find these truths ANYWHERE but in Pauls epistles.

Have you HEARD of the dispensation of the Grace of God?

Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-

Ephesians 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me (Paul speaking here)the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

Ephesians 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Ephesians 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Ephesians 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Ephesians 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable (this word means UNTRACEABLE in the OT)riches of Christ;

 

[eph3Nine]

Uh...are you sure you are addressing me? All I did was ask him to explain what he was talking about and I get told I need to do some more studying? Because I can't read someone's mind? That was a pretty darn rude post you did to me...I think it was uncalled for...I simply asked him some questions.... unless there is some rule on here that its wrong to ask questions, that is...

I notice no one else it jumping in to answer him...probably because they can't read his mind either...I would have been glad to help if I knew what he was talking about.

No one was meaning to be rude...Scripture TELLS us to study! 2 Tim 2:15 "Study to show yourselves approved unto God, a workman that doesnt need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth."

Questions are GREAT, and we love em! But as is the case with most of the forums in here, you probably would be better informed if you read some of the posts to get an idea of what scripture says on the subject. Then we dont have to do alot of reposting the same information.

We are more than happy to answer any and all questions, but it would make it a much better discussion if you knew ahead of time what is being taught here. Just a suggestion.

Have a great day!

 

[rightlydividingtheword]

First of all, welcome to the dispensational forum, it's always good to share the word rightly divided to someone new. Hopefuly I can give you some understanding , or at least something to think about.

don't understand what you are talking about...the twelve preaching what message foretold in the OT? That Jesus was the Messiah? Paul did the same thing...you need to explain more in detail of what you are talking about. Thanks

The message the twelve apostles preached a gospel(good news) that the earthly jesus taught and was totally in line with prophecy.
Your probably wondering what's the distinction in "earthly Jesus",and is their another Jesus.
Well let's look at the scriptures shall we.
Galations 1:11,-12
1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ


"For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it"[ gal 1:12]


The twelve were taught by an earthly jesus, Paul states clearly that he wasn't taught by man
(Jesus included) but by revelation form a risen savior Jesus.
The twelve apostles can't say that.
The twelve taught the message that Jesus taught which is the "kingdom message"

The "Kingdom message" Is the good news to the nation of Israel that god is fulfillling his promise to the nation of Israel, that message is Jesus coming to reign on the throne of david and give Israel their land back, and judgement and righteousness shall flow forth from Zion

Isaiah 9:6,7
9:6 For unto us(israel) a child is born, unto us(israel) a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Paul didn't preach this gospel, Pauls' gospel(good news) is to the Gentiles.
Israel was to be the channel in which god blesses the rest of the world
Paul gospel has nothing to do with an earthly kingdom,his gospel has everything to do with Heaven, and the grace of god. The twelve preached works for salvation.


Matthew 19:28
19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Paul will not be one of them!!!

Paul taught the gospel of the grace of god, and not another Jesus as the twelve taught!!!


2 corithians 11:4
11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel,(good news) which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

 

[whitestar]

Welcome to the "Dispensational Forum"...where it is always wise to read some of the threads to find whats being taught and how it is supported by the scriptures.

The 12 were appointed by Jesus in His ministry on EARTH to present a message to a NATION. It was called the KINGDOM GOSPEL. It was limited to JEWS alone.The Jews were the ones told to expect a MESSIAH.

There is ONE who is appointed by God to preach a DIFFERENT message. It is from NOT the earthly Christ (who told us that while He was ON the EARTH , his ministry was ONLY to the lost sheep of the House of Israel), but the RISEN Lord of Glory. This is called the Gospel of the GRACE of God , or the MYSTERY, which was hid in God and kept SECRET until due time.

Paul is the due time testifier and the apostle that God chose to give NEW information to we, the Body of Christ. He was given information that Peter and the boys and Israel simply didnt HAVE!

The MYSTERY gospel is the gospel that saves TODAY, as the gospel made to Israel is no longer on the table.

Have YOU heard of the dispensation of the GRACE of God? Its certainly NOT The same gospel preached by Peter and the boys or the earthly Jesus. NO NO NO.

So...maybe tis YOU who should do a bit more studying. If you disagree, then show us with scripture where we are wrong...we will be more than happy to change our minds.

Thanks for stopping by.

First I am yelled at and told who Jesus is...I am obviously a Christian I already know everything I quoted above...I do have a Christian icon. I simply clicked on the 'lastest posts' saw the orginal post and thought I could help this person with his or her question, but then I read it and saw he or she didn't explain what they were refering too so I asked. And that is it. That was my only intend to help the poster...instead I get a lession on the NT...stuff I already know about. And in a rather defensive statement told...if I disgree then show you all scriptures where it says you are wrong...and told
Have YOU heard of the dispensation of the GRACE of God? Its certainly NOT The same gospel preached by Peter and the boys or the earthly Jesus. NO NO NO.

So...maybe tis YOU

How do you think a person is going to take this? How do you know I don't already agree with this? How do you know I don't study the bible daily? I felt like I was scolded for simply asking a question. Now it appears the OP was not asking a question at all but simply making a statement since he or she answered their own post...very confusing indeed!

Why you guys so jumpy and defensive anyway?

Second many Christians see the word Dispensationalist. as talking only about the end times view: Dispensationalist Christian eschatology emphasizes a premillennialfuturist view of prophecy of the "end times" and a pretribulation view of the rapture. Which is what I thought too...I even checked the board rules and it simply says nofull prestist views allowed on here, which has to do with the end times. So yea, I couldn't figure out why the OP was talking about Paul vs Jesus on an end time pre-trib rapture fourm! Maybe they need to have a post that explains the FULL meaning of dispensationalism, so folks know its not just about end time views...and avoid the confusion when people like me, happen to see a single post from this fourm on the 'lastest post' links.

And with that...I will be moving along, ...I already know all this stuff you all are talking about, nothing new to me. sorry I ever came in here and will be sure to avoid any post from this fourm again.

 

[eph3Nine]

First I am yelled at and told who Jesus is...I am obviously a Christian I already know everything I quoted above...I do have a Christian icon. I simply clicked on the 'lastest posts' saw the orginal post and thought I could help this person with his or her question, but then I read it and saw he or she didn't explain what they were refering too so I asked. And that is it. That was my only intend to help the poster...instead I get a lession on the NT...stuff I already know about. And in a rather defensive statement told...if I disgree then show you all scriptures where it says you are wrong...and told
Have YOU heard of the dispensation of the GRACE of God? Its certainly NOT The same gospel preached by Peter and the boys or the earthly Jesus. NO NO NO.

So...maybe tis YOU

How do you think a person is going to take this? How do you know I don't already agree with this? How do you know I don't study the bible daily? I felt like I was scolded for simply asking a question. Now it appears the OP was not asking a question at all but simply making a statement since he or she answered their own post...very confusing indeed!

Why you guys so jumpy and defensive anyway?

Second many Christians see the word Dispensationalist. as talking only about the end times view: Dispensationalist Christian eschatology emphasizes a premillennialfuturist view of prophecy of the "end times" and a pretribulation view of the rapture. Which is what I thought too...I even checked the board rules and it simply says nofull prestist views allowed on here, which has to do with the end times. So yea, I couldn't figure out why the OP was talking about Paul vs Jesus on an end time pre-trib rapture fourm! Maybe they need to have a post that explains the FULL meaning of dispensationalism, so folks know its not just about end time views...and avoid the confusion when people like me, happen to see a single post from this fourm on the 'lastest post' links.

And with that...I will be moving along, ...I already know all this stuff you all are talking about, nothing new to me. sorry I ever came in here and will be sure to avoid any post from this fourm again.

Geee...sorry. We apologized, and as we all know , this medium has its limitations. You cant hear the tone of voice and you dont know the individual posters. The point is still, we must STUDY TO see that things that are DIFFERENT are NOT the same!

This isnt an end time pre trib rapture forum. Its dispensational, which means that we acknowledge the differences between Gods program with Israel, which is what Christ lived and taught during His earthly ministry, and Gods program with US, the church, which is His body.

We are ALL encouraged to STUDY to show ourselves approved unto God...not just YOU.

So, can we get past the "hurt feelings" and onto the meat of the matter? I sure hope so. Satan uses "feelings" to DERAIL Gods message for today. When we have thin skin and get easily offended, we simply play into his hands and make the fight between two members of His Body instead of with our REAL enemy.Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

The earthly Jesus didnt preach the message that the RISEN Christ gave to Paul.

 

[JMWHALEN]

"And with that...I will be moving along, ...I already know all this stuff you all are talking about, nothing new to me. sorry I ever came in here and will be sure to avoid any post from this fourm again."

Whitestar: Re. your comment "...I already know all this stuff you all are talking about, nothing new to me ..."


I find out every day how much I don't know about this Holy Bible, and that every passage has something new for me to learn every day.. And hence, the LORD God's constant admonition to us to study/meditate on His word, and"...search the scriptures daily..."(Acts 17:11), for our sanctification, and for our increasing our knowledge of who He is. If I ever "get to the point" that I think "I already know all this stuff you all are talking about, nothing new to me", then I have not been studying, meditating, and searching the Holy Bible adequately, and I really know nothing about the Holy Bible, including its own testimony that it is inexhaustable.


Stick around, perhaps? We are suppose to teach/learn from each other. If prayer is our communication with the LORD God, and the Holy Bible His communication with us, what is more important: what we say to Him, or what He says to us?


In Christ,
John M. whalen

 

[eph3Nine]

whitestar wrote:

I don't understand what you are talking about...the twelve preaching what message foretold in the OT? That Jesus was the Messiah? Paul did the same thing...you need to explain more in detail of what you are talking about. ......I will be moving along, ...I already know all this stuff you all are talking about, nothing new to me.

First this poster says he doesn't understand what we are talking about. Then he says he already knows all this stuff, nothing new.

He thinks the initial post was about Paul vs Jesus???? A simple run through the text tells us its not about that at ALL, but about the difference between Peter and Pauls message and the twofold ministry of Christ...one earthly to the Jew, and one heavenly to we the Body of Christ.

This is a classic example of folks who come in with guns ablazing...only to find out they forgot their ammunition.

And , oh yes...dont forget to throw in that we were rude. We try to get folks to argue using the scriptures and it just seems to be way too much to ask, then they conk us on the head on the way OUT. This is called a "drive by shooting" where I come from.

WINK...said with tongue in cheek. If we cant have a sense of humor about ourselves, then what good is it to be alive, ehhhh?

Yall have a good day.

 

[GLJCA]

Why Paul? My question deals with the apostleship of Paul.
The twelve(peter,james,john etc..) all preached a message that was foretold in the Old Testament Prophets.
Paul's message was totally unprophesized, unlike the twelve apostles(whom the earthly Jesus choose.
Can anyone find any scripture where Paul preached the Kingdom message?
Here's a thought ABRAM (gentile name) changed to ABRAHAM (jewish name)
SAUL (jewish name) changed to Paul (gentile name).Paul is the apostle to the gentiles period. He has a unique apostleship that was commissioned by a Heavenly Jesus with a message exclusively to the body of christ.IF it was the same gospel(good news) there wouldn't be any need for christ to comission Saul a (chief Blasphemer) to do the same thing the twelve were comissioned to.Think about it for a second.

I am probably spinning my wheels because I have shown you these before and you ignored them but for the benefit of others that maybe reading these posts I will post them again. Paul taught the same thing that Peter taught. Paul taught repentance, faith and works that are meet for repentance.
Look at what he taught to the Gentiles in Athens at Mars Hill, long after he and Peter decided who would go to the Jews and who would go to the Gentiles.
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Paul preached baptism.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Col 2:11-12 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
He taught the Colosians that baptism is the circumcision of Christ. In other words baptism is the NT equivalent of the OT circumcision. The bloody sign of covenant membership was done away with in Christ and a non bloody sign was initiated in the New Testament. This means that Gen 17:14 still holds true for baptism also.
Gen 17:10 This [is] my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
What that says is that if anyone refuses baptism, which enters the person into the covenant of God, then that person will be cut off because they will have broken God's covenant.

People today want to say that baptism isn't needed yet neither Peter nor Paul taught that. In fact they taught just the opposite.

The Jews had always had a sign of covenant membership. They were a people that required a sign(1Cor 1:22) because God had always given them one. If God would have changed the format, he would have had to explain it explicitly to them that they no longer needed a sign, yet we see no explanation. God would have changed hundreds of years of tradition without any explanation and that would have been unprecedented. God had always worked through the head of the house(Abraham) to his whole house. What we see in the NT is Peter standing before the Jews in Acts 2 telling them that the promise was to them and their children. Just like the Old Testament. Paul baptized Philippian jailer in Acts 16 and his whole family with the sign of the New Covenant. He was baptised and His whole family was baptized just like all the men in Abraham's family and under his roof were circumcised in the OT.
When Lydia was saved she and her whole household were baptised just like they did it in the Old Testament.
Acts 16:15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought [us], saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide [there]. And she constrained us.

The assumption that baptism isn't needed is a lie from the enemy and a dangerous thing to do knowing that God has said he that refuses the sign will be cut off.

GLJCA

 

[eph3Nine]

I am probably spinning my wheels because I have shown you these before and you ignored them but for the benefit of others that maybe reading these posts I will post them again. Paul taught the same thing that Peter taught. Paul taught repentance, faith and works that are meet for repentance.
Look at what he taught to the Gentiles in Athens at Mars Hill, long after he and Peter decided who would go to the Jews and who would go to the Gentiles.
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Paul preached baptism.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Col 2:11-12 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
He taught the Colosians that baptism is the circumcision of Christ. In other words baptism is the NT equivalent of the OT circumcision. The bloody sign of covenant membership was done away with in Christ and a non bloody sign was initiated in the New Testament. This means that Gen 17:14 still holds true for baptism also.
Gen 17:10 This [is] my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
What that says is that if anyone refuses baptism, which enters the person into the covenant of God, then that person will be cut off because they will have broken God's covenant.

People today want to say that baptism isn't needed yet neither Peter nor Paul taught that. In fact they taught just the opposite.

The Jews had always had a sign of covenant membership. They were a people that required a sign(1Cor 1:22) because God had always given them one. If God would have changed the format, he would have had to explain it explicitly to them that they no longer needed a sign, yet we see no explanation. God would have changed hundreds of years of tradition without any explanation and that would have been unprecedented. God had always worked through the head of the house(Abraham) to his whole house. What we see in the NT is Peter standing before the Jews in Acts 2 telling them that the promise was to them and their children. Just like the Old Testament. Paul baptized Philippian jailer in Acts 16 and his whole family with the sign of the New Covenant. He was baptised and His whole family was baptized just like all the men in Abraham's family and under his roof were circumcised in the OT.
When Lydia was saved she and her whole household were baptised just like they did it in the Old Testament.
Acts 16:15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought [us], saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide [there]. And she constrained us.

The assumption that baptism isn't needed is a lie from the enemy and a dangerous thing to do knowing that God has said he that refuses the sign will be cut off.

GLJCA

The ONLY baptism needed today is the baptism of Eph 4:5
Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

And Paul said that "Christ sent him NOT to baptize..."
1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.


so...again...you are operating in a program God set aside over two thousand years ago and by preaching another gospel and another jesus you bring yourself into the realm of the "accursed" promise of Galatians 1:8,9 seen below.

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.Galatians 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Pretty clear to me!

 

[JMWHALEN]

The ONLY baptism needed today is the baptism of Eph 4:5
Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

And Paul said that "Christ sent him NOT to baptize..."
1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.


so...again...you are operating in a program God set aside over two thousand years ago and by preaching another gospel and another jesus you bring yourself into the realm of the "accursed" promise of Galatians 1:8,9 seen below.

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.Galatians 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Pretty clear to me!

Well said, eph3nine. I did not know this person was perverting the gospel of Christ, until this post. Without commenting on all of this, since he says "What that says is that if anyone refuses baptism, which enters the person into the covenant of God, then that person will be cut off because they will have broken God's covenant.People today want to say that baptism isn't needed yet neither Peter nor Paul taught that. In fact they taught just the opposite", I will add add a few comments: he is preaching water baptism, which was a righteous requirement of the law, and thus he preaches another gospel.

He just "does not get" that Paul is speaking of a spiritual baptism=identification into His death(not water)=when He died, we died; when He was buried, we were buried; and when he was raised, we were raised; and a spiritual circumcision("made without hands"=God), and that "the circumcision of Christ" was the spiritual circumcision of Christ at the cross, i.e., his soul was "cut off", severed/separated(physical circumcision was the "cutting off"/"severing" of the flesh of the male foreskin from the body) from his body, and his soul went to hell. Similarly, we are separated both positionally from who we were "in Adam", and now we are "in Christ", and separated from our former walk in "the body of the sins of the flesh", as we are "putting off" these, and "putting on" Christ. This is the positional and practical result of Christ's spiritual circumcision. And the focus of Colossians chapter 2 is the distortion of Christianity by legalism("complete in Christ" vs. "rudiments of the world"......)!

Ironic,isn't it? He spiritualizes the "land promises" to Israel(as just one example), and literalizes the one spiritual Eph. 4:5 baptism into water.


"In other words baptism is the NT equivalent of the OT circumcision"

I wonder if he will explain just how females were circumcized in the OT. Does baptism in water for females in the NT replace their circumcision in the OT? Watch the spin.

"The assumption that baptism isn't needed is a lie from the enemy and a dangerous thing to do knowing that God has said he that refuses the sign will be cut off."

Gen 17:10 This [is] my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

He is perverting the gospel, trying to place members of the body of Christ under the Law of Moses. Of course, this is typical of those who cannot even see who is being addressed. He thinks he is a Jew-can't even read to whom this is written. The Eph. 4:5 one baptism is a spiritual baptism in which we are identified into the Lord Jesus Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, and identified with each member of his body, with Him as Head. And this spiritual baptism is a result of our placing our faith in the work of the Saviour-1 Cor. 15:1-4.

In Christ,
John M. Whalen

 

[eph3Nine]

GLJCA said:

"The assumption that baptism isn't needed is a lie from the enemy and a dangerous thing to do knowing that God has said he that refuses the sign will be cut off."

Whoaaaaaaaa....water baptism ISN'T necessary for we who have the Spirit baptism of Eph 4:5...and God did say that he who is a JEW and was UNDER THE COVENANT MADE WITH THE JEWS under the KINGDOM PROGRAM would be cut off. This had NOTHING at ALL to do with we the body of Christ under the MYSTERY program! (Hello?????)

This is the scripture they used: again...written NOT to we who are His Body, but to those JEWS to whom the covenant was written. It says so in the text!

Gen 17:10

This [is] my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Can any reasonably rational person tell me that they cannot see that this is written to JEWISH PEOPLE under a covenant relationship with God in times PAST????? Can you honestly say that this applies to we the Body of Christ today, who were never UNDER any covenant with God to begin with, but aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, strangers to the promises, without God, and LOST?
Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:


John replied:

He is perverting the gospel, trying to place members of the body of Christ under the Law of Moses. Of course, this is typical of those who cannot even see who is being addressed. He thinks he is a Jew-can't even read to whom this is written. The Eph. 4:5 one baptism is a spiritual baptism in which we are identified into the Lord Jesus Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, and identified with each member of his body, with Him as Head. And this spiritual baptism is a result of our placing our faith in the work of the Saviour-1 Cor. 15:1-4.

You are exactly RIGHT< John!! We who are members of the Body of Christ in this dispensation are NOT under the law of Moses. "Christ is the END of the law unto righteousness to all who BELIEVE"......This poster has some serious problems seeing that we are NOT still under Judaism, but God has initiated and brought about a BRAND NEW ADMINISTRATION....not an extension of Judaism, but totally BRAND NEW. The Body of Christ IS one of the main components of this NEW program...it didnt exist before and has NO place in the covenants having to do with Israel.

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[GLJCA]

GLJCA said:

Whoaaaaaaaa....water baptism ISN'T necessary for we who have the Spirit baptism of Eph 4:5...and God did say that he who is a JEW and was UNDER THE COVENANT MADE WITH THE JEWS under the KINGDOM PROGRAM would be cut off. This had NOTHING at ALL to do with we the body of Christ under the MYSTERY program! (Hello?????)

This is the scripture they used: again...written NOT to we who are His Body, but to those JEWS to whom the covenant was written. It says so in the text!



Can any reasonably rational person tell me that they cannot see that this is written to JEWISH PEOPLE under a covenant relationship with God in times PAST????? Can you honestly say that this applies to we the Body of Christ today, who were never UNDER any covenant with God to begin with, but aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, strangers to the promises, without God, and LOST?
Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:


John replied:

You are exactly RIGHT< John!! We who are members of the Body of Christ in this dispensation are NOT under the law of Moses. "Christ is the END of the law unto righteousness to all who BELIEVE"......This poster has some serious problems seeing that we are NOT still under Judaism, but God has initiated and brought about a BRAND NEW ADMINISTRATION....not an extension of Judaism, but totally BRAND NEW. The Body of Christ IS one of the main components of this NEW program...it didnt exist before and has NO place in the covenants having to do with Israel.

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Wrong again.

In the Old Testament God required the physical sign of circumcision but He also required the spiritual sign of the circumcision of the heart.
Deu 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.
Deu 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Jer 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench [it], because of the evil of your doings.

God required both in the Old Testament. God requires both in the New Testament also.
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
These received the baptism of the spirit yet they were baptized in water also.
Act 16:15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought [us], saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide [there]. And she constrained us.
Lydia was baptized with her whole household just like they did in the OT.
Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Even Paul's baptism was consistent with the same baptism Peter preached about, which was the baptism of the Lord Jesus Christ.
1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
At the same time that the outward sign of baptism was preached the inward sign was also shown to be a requirement.

It is very dangerous to say that what God requires is not needed today.

GLJCA

 

[GLJCA]

Can any reasonably rational person tell me that they cannot see that this is written to JEWISH PEOPLE under a covenant relationship with God in times PAST????? Can you honestly say that this applies to we the Body of Christ today, who were never UNDER any covenant with God to begin with, but aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, strangers to the promises, without God, and LOST?
Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Interestingly you left off the next few verses which shows that we are now made nigh to the commonwealth of Israel and are no longer strangers but fellow citizens with the saints.
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Doesn't it bother you to have to skip over verses that contradict your point of view. Seems to me that if you have to skip over verses that contradict your point of view then your point of view needs to change.

GLJCA

 

[eph3Nine]

Interestingly you left off the next few verses which shows that we are now made nigh to the commonwealth of Israel and are no longer strangers but fellow citizens with the saints.
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Doesn't it bother you to have to skip over verses that contradict your point of view. Seems to me that if you have to skip over verses that contradict your point of view then your point of view needs to change.

GLJCA

I used the verses that show the position of the gentile in the age YOU are putting them in...but you cant even seem to grasp the obvious. Which means you are setting yourself in opposition to the TRUTH. My oh my. NOT a good place to be in, my friend.

These verses actually SHOW dispensational teaching...LOL

Eph 2: 11, 12, 13 and verse 7 is where God spells out TIMES PAST, BUT NOW , AND AGES TO COME.

These ARE the divisions God places in His Word where He is dealing with the Nation Israel and the church, which is His BODY. The ONLY Place He is dealing with the church which is His Body is in the "BUT NOW"...which is the parenthetical MYSTERY PROGRAM not included in the prophetic program given to Israel. Israels program is the Times PAST and AGES TO COME...with the MYSTERY sandwiched in between.

Your bible is even laid out in that manner, to make it EASY for you to SEE the difference.

Gen thru ACTS = God dealing with the nation Israel = Times PAST

Romans thru Philemon = God dealing with the church, which is His Body=
BUT NOW.

Hebrews thru Rev = God resuming His program with Israel =Ages to COME.

 

[eph3Nine]

GLJCA wrote:

God required both in the Old Testament. God requires both in the New Testament also.
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
These received the baptism of the spirit yet they were baptized in water also.
Act 16:15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought [us], saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide [there]. And she constrained us.
Lydia was baptized with her whole household just like they did in the OT.
Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Even Paul's baptism was consistent with the same baptism Peter preached about, which was the baptism of the Lord Jesus Christ.
1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
At the same time that the outward sign of baptism was preached the inward sign was also shown to be a requirement.

It is very dangerous to say that what God requires is not needed today.

It is also very dangerous NOT to do as God instructed and NOT rightly divide.

Water has NOTHING to do with Gods plan of salvation for today. We are baptized (identified WITH) into His Body...no water, but an ACT of the Holy Spirit.

You are very very confused. And preaching another gospel.