Why Outlawing Abortion is a Bad Idea

[Blackrend]

In this post, I'm only going to concentrate on one of the reasons Abortion should not be outlawed, and I think it's something that a lot of pro-lifers tend to overlook. I know I'm probably going to get flamed for this... But it's a big issue in this year's Election, and it's something that needs to be discussed openly between the opposing sides so that we can all come to some middle ground. I am pro-choice, NOT pro-abortion. Nobody with a sound mind can be 'pro' for killing something.

Also, this rant is concerning all abortions except partial birth and post-birth... since even people on the far-left will agree that those two methods are vile and extreme.

So, as most of you may know, abortion was deemed a criminal offense in the U.S. between the late 1800s and 1973. However, millions of women sought out abortions anyway, causing an estimated 15,000 deaths per year due to complications during the procedure. This was either the result of the abortion itself, infection, or internal hemorrhaging. Women attempted their own abortions by inflicting harm on themselves, or putting dangerous chemicals and instruments inside them.

On a side note, let's look at Africa on a completely different, yet somewhat related issue. Some African nations are beginning to outlaw Female Circumcision, and now look at what's happening: The act has gone underground. Unqualified 'doctors' are performing this procedure with unsterilized equipment and without the aid of anesthetic. Indeed, female circumcision has always been a graphically horrific and morally corrupt procedure, but this just shows that people will ALWAYS go underground to obtain something illegally. The exact same thing applies to the alcohol prohibition movement that took place in the early 1900s. People will always be pressured to seek out what they cannot obtain by legal means.

That being said, wouldn't you agree that legalized abortion is the 'lesser of two evils' because it causes less suffering to the mother and the fetus? I know, I know, in a perfect world, there would be no need for abortions... But as anyone can see, our world is far from a Utopia.

A better solution, IMO, would be to abolish abstinence-only sex education and teach safe-sex education in schools, so that we can limit the overall number of abortions. Deeming Abortions illegal will only create more problems and cause more suffering all around.

Now...

*prepares to be strung up and lit ablaze*

 

[lawtonfogle]

In this post, I'm only going to concentrate on one of the reasons Abortion should not be outlawed, and I think it's something that a lot of pro-lifers tend to overlook. I know I'm probably going to get flamed for this... But it's a big issue in this year's Election, and it's something that needs to be discussed openly between the opposing sides so that we can all come to some middle ground. I am pro-choice, NOT pro-abortion. Nobody with a sound mind can be 'pro' for killing something.

So all pro-death penalty people are crazy... good job on that one[/sarcasm]

Also, this rant is concerning all abortions except partial birth and post-birth... since even people on the far-left will agree that those two methods are vile and extreme.

So, as most of you may know, abortion was deemed a criminal offense in the U.S. between the late 1800s and 1973. However, millions of women sought out abortions anyway, causing an estimated 15,000 deaths per year due to complications during the procedure. This was either the result of the abortion itself, infection, or internal hemorrhaging. Women attempted their own abortions by inflicting harm on themselves, or putting dangerous chemicals and instruments inside them.

On a side note, let's look at Africa on a completely different, yet somewhat related issue. Some African nations are beginning to outlaw Female Circumcision, and now look at what's happening: The act has gone underground. Unqualified 'doctors' are performing this procedure with unsterilized equipment and without the aid of anesthetic. Indeed, female circumcision has always been a graphically horrific and morally corrupt procedure, but this just shows that people will ALWAYS go underground to obtain something illegally. The exact same thing applies to the alcohol prohibition movement that took place in the early 1900s. People will always be pressured to seek out what they cannot obtain by legal means.

That being said, wouldn't you agree that legalized abortion is the 'lesser of two evils' because it causes less suffering to the mother and the fetus? I know, I know, in a perfect world, there would be no need for abortions... But as anyone can see, our world is far from a Utopia.

A better solution, IMO, would be to abolish abstinence-only sex education and teach safe-sex education in schools, so that we can limit the overall number of abortions. Deeming Abortions illegal will only create more problems and cause more suffering all around.

Now...

*prepares to be strung up and lit ablaze*

Um, as you yourself realized, arguing something shouldn't be outlawed because it will become criminal isn't a good reasoning. Why outlaw slavery, rape, murder, stealing someone else's organs for yourself, ect. ect.?

And while increasing sex ed. would help the issue, it wouldn't solve it.

 

[Blackrend]

Um, as you yourself realized, arguing something shouldn't be outlawed because it will become criminal isn't a good reasoning. Why outlaw slavery, rape, murder, stealing someone else's organs for yourself, ect. ect.?

Well, Slavery, rape, murder, and stealing are all very black-and-white issues (depending on what part of the world you live in, of course). Abortion, however, is not. Women and girls can be sexually assaulted by a stranger or relative and become pregnant, the pregnancy can put their lives and health at risk, or the women may not be financially or mentally able to support a child properly. These and a number of other factors come into play in regards to abortion, making it a very gray area, so one can't lump it in with the other crimes mentioned.

And while increasing sex ed. would help the issue, it wouldn't solve it.

It absolutely wouldn't solve the problem, but it would greatly reduce the number of unplanned pregnancies and abortions. Parents also need to step up to the plate and discuss the issue of sex with their children BEFORE they start messing around. They need to explain that, while it is better to wait until you're married, there are other options if you choose not to do so. Education and understanding are the key here.

 

[lawtonfogle]

Well, Slavery, rape, murder, and stealing are all very black-and-white issues (depending on what part of the world you live in, of course). Abortion, however, is not. Women and girls can be sexually assaulted by a stranger or relative and become pregnant, the pregnancy can put their lives and health at risk, or the women may not be financially or mentally able to support a child properly. These and a number of other factors come into play in regards to abortion, making it a very gray area, so one can't lump it in with the other crimes mentioned.

Actually, the issue is very black/white. Just there are about an equal split of those who see it as very black and those who see it as very white. Either the unborn is a life (meaning deserving the right to not be killed), and thus killing it is wrong, or it isn't. When the unborn is not life, the issue starts to become gray.

And actually, murder and slavery aren't as gray as you think. Prisons are in fact a form of slavery, and our constitution does not prohibit all slavery so we could keep prisoners. Now, it is a very justified form of slavery, but it is removal of human rights. Most slavery happens to someone else outside of there own choosing, but this is a form which you normally must choose to participate in (as for innocents who get thrown in jail, I don't feel like going there today).

As for murder, when killing becomes murder it is wrong, but what defines that bridge over is where you see things become grey. Is a parent killing to protect a child murdering? What about a parent killing some stranger who they think is stalking the child (but who isn't, and just happens to have to go by the that house everyday to get to work)? Issues can, when looked at long enough, probably be made as grey as you want.

It absolutely wouldn't solve the problem, but it would greatly reduce the number of unplanned pregnancies and abortions. Parents also need to step up to the plate and discuss the issue of sex with their children BEFORE they start messing around. They need to explain that, while it is better to wait until you're married, there are other options if you choose not to do so. Education and understanding are the key here.

I don't really know if that is the case. Then again, I have never met someone who holds those crazy beliefs like drinking a lot of Mountain Dew counts as conception. As such, to those people, yes sex ed would help, but among many people I see, it isn't a lack of education, but the realization that yes, this bad stuff can happen to you. The standard "I am immortal" teenagers are known for applied to sex.

 

[Bombila]

So all pro-death penalty people are crazy... good job on that one[/sarcasm]


Um, as you yourself realized, arguing something shouldn't be outlawed because it will become criminal isn't a good reasoning. Why outlaw slavery, rape, murder, stealing someone else's organs for yourself, ect. ect.?

And while increasing sex ed. would help the issue, it wouldn't solve it.

Personally, I and a good many other people do think that, at least on that one issue, people who are genuinely pro-death penalty are indeed crazy - or uninformed.

I agree that some abusive behaviours (such as those you named) should be illegal, even if there is the risk of the behaviour going underground. Abortion is not one of them, as it is a deeply personal issue involving the physical integrity of a woman's body, and as such should be nobody's business but her own. IMO.

Better reproductive health education doesn't eliminate unwanted pregnancies, but it goes a long way to alleviating the problem. Your following post noted you hadn't met anyone who was really ignorant about reproduction. Trust me, they're out there in hordes.

One problem, even when reproductive health classes (sex ed, if you like) are available, boys are underrepresented. I've met plenty of adult men who haven't a clue about the female reproductive system, may not know what, if any, birth control method their partner(s) use(s), and may not be too clear on the chances of their own contribution to the process being successful or not.

 

[Autumnleaf]

In this post, I'm only going to concentrate on one of the reasons Abortion should not be outlawed, and I think it's something that a lot of pro-lifers tend to overlook. I know I'm probably going to get flamed for this... But it's a big issue in this year's Election, and it's something that needs to be discussed openly between the opposing sides so that we can all come to some middle ground. I am pro-choice, NOT pro-abortion. Nobody with a sound mind can be 'pro' for killing something.

Also, this rant is concerning all abortions except partial birth and post-birth... since even people on the far-left will agree that those two methods are vile and extreme.

So, as most of you may know, abortion was deemed a criminal offense in the U.S. between the late 1800s and 1973. However, millions of women sought out abortions anyway, causing an estimated 15,000 deaths per year due to complications during the procedure. This was either the result of the abortion itself, infection, or internal hemorrhaging. Women attempted their own abortions by inflicting harm on themselves, or putting dangerous chemicals and instruments inside them.

On a side note, let's look at Africa on a completely different, yet somewhat related issue. Some African nations are beginning to outlaw Female Circumcision, and now look at what's happening: The act has gone underground. Unqualified 'doctors' are performing this procedure with unsterilized equipment and without the aid of anesthetic. Indeed, female circumcision has always been a graphically horrific and morally corrupt procedure, but this just shows that people will ALWAYS go underground to obtain something illegally. The exact same thing applies to the alcohol prohibition movement that took place in the early 1900s. People will always be pressured to seek out what they cannot obtain by legal means.

That being said, wouldn't you agree that legalized abortion is the 'lesser of two evils' because it causes less suffering to the mother and the fetus? I know, I know, in a perfect world, there would be no need for abortions... But as anyone can see, our world is far from a Utopia.

A better solution, IMO, would be to abolish abstinence-only sex education and teach safe-sex education in schools, so that we can limit the overall number of abortions. Deeming Abortions illegal will only create more problems and cause more suffering all around.

Now...

*prepares to be strung up and lit ablaze*

If you are prochoice then you are for/pro abortion. Don't kid yourself and don't apologize for being that way if that is what you believe. Stand on one side of the road or the other. Stand in the middle and you get run over.

People are always doing illegal things. Should we make drunk driving legal because people will do it anyways?

 

[Blackrend]

If you are prochoice then you are for/pro abortion. Don't kid yourself and don't apologize for being that way if that is what you believe. Stand on one side of the road or the other. Stand in the middle and you get run over.

I knew someone was gonna say that...

Look, I don't like abortions, and nobody in their right mind does. I hate the term 'pro-abortion', because that translates to 'pro-killing'. Killing is wrong, and any sane person would agree. But there are instances when choosing to terminate a pregnancy qualifies as the lesser of two evils, therefore the only logical stance is to stay within the gray area. Very few things in this world deal in absolutes.

People are always doing illegal things. Should we make drunk driving legal because people will do it anyways?

Someone I spoke with earlier used the exact same analogy, except they referred to drug abuse.

It's not fair to lump these two issues together. For one, making drunk driving legal will only worsen the severity of auto accidents. People are going to be putting MORE booze into their system without having to worry about getting nabbed by the police.

Legalized abortion does the exact opposite. Women no longer suffer and die at the hands of back-alley abortionists, self-inflicted wounds, and infection. And when combined with sex education, the number of overall abortions drops significantly.

I apologize if my sentences appear choppy and lame. It's a little past 2am where I live. -_- *passes out*

 

[cantata]

Blackrend, I appreciate your zeal, but I am of pretty sound mind, and I assure you that I have no moral qualms about abortion whatsoever. Foetuses are certainly alive, and they are certainly human beings, but I don't see anything inherently wrong about killing them.

 

[Blackrend]

Blackrend, I appreciate your zeal, but I am of pretty sound mind, and I assure you that I have no moral qualms about abortion whatsoever. Foetuses are certainly alive, and they are certainly human beings, but I don't see anything inherently wrong about killing them.

I had said "nobody in their right mind likes abortions". Not "nobody in their right mind is passive about abortions". Lol...

Sorry if I offended you or anything =P

 

[cantata]

I had said "nobody in their right mind likes abortions". Not "nobody in their right mind is passive about abortions". Lol...

Sorry if I offended you or anything =P

Well, I would obviously rather that people didn't need to have abortions, because they're expensive and traumatic. But, given that we live in a world in which there are unwanted or dangerous pregnancies, I am very much in favour of abortions for women who want or need to have them. So I'm quite happy to be labeled "pro-abortion", because that's what I am.

Not offended, just clearing things up.

I guess what you were saying is that no sane person is in favour of people getting pregnant in order to have an abortion because abortions are super happy fun? If that was your point, I certainly agree.

 

[Blackrend]

Well, I would obviously rather that people didn't need to have abortions, because they're expensive and traumatic. But, given that we live in a world in which there are unwanted or dangerous pregnancies, I am very much in favour of abortions for women who want or need to have them. So I'm quite happy to be labeled "pro-abortion", because that's what I am.

I guess what you were saying is that no sane person is in favour of people getting pregnant in order to have an abortion because abortions are super happy fun? If that was your point, I certainly agree.

Not offended, just clearing things up.

Grr, now you have me second guessing myself. I guess I just don't like the term "pro-abortion" because it always translates to "Pro-baby killer" in the eyes of others.

In reality, I've seen too many young kids/adolescents get pregnant and decide to carry the child to term, which I think is a damn stupid and irresponsible thing to do. Most of the time, these teenagers are ill-equipped to care for another human being, be it mentally, physically, emotionally, or financially.

Another thing I've noticed is that a lot of these 'parents' treat their newborns as if they're dolls. A friend of mine got pregnant about two years ago, and has since had the child. She was a prime example of this. I was at a party in someone's basement, where there had to have been roughly 12 - 15 people, all standing around screaming, yelling, talking over each other, playing video games and loud music. So what does my friend do? She brings her 2-month-old to the party!

Teen parents also fail to grasp the concept that you need to support a baby's head. Not just let it flop back over your arm. -_-

Lol... Why do stupid people have the right to procreate? On some days I wish we'd adopt China's policy of a "License to Breed"... As un-democratic as that sounds. =\

 

[Bombila]

Grr, now you have me second guessing myself. I guess I just don't like the term "pro-abortion" because it always translates to "Pro-baby killer" in the eyes of others.

In reality, I've seen too many young kids/adolescents get pregnant and decide to carry the child to term, which I think is a damn stupid and irresponsible thing to do. Most of the time, these teenagers are ill-equipped to care for another human being, be it mentally, physically, emotionally, or financially.

Another thing I've noticed is that a lot of these 'parents' treat their newborns as if they're dolls. A friend of mine got pregnant about two years ago, and has since had the child. She was a prime example of this. I was at a party in someone's basement, where there had to have been roughly 12 - 15 people, all standing around screaming, yelling, talking over each other, playing video games and loud music. So what does my friend do? She brings her 2-month-old to the party!

Teen parents also fail to grasp the concept that you need to support a baby's head. Not just let it flop back over your arm. -_-

Lol... Why do stupid people have the right to procreate? On some days I wish we'd adopt China's policy of a "License to Breed"... As un-democratic as that sounds. =\

I'm of the opinion that adolescents (boys included) need human reproduction and health education as opposed to just 'sex' education. There have been programs that claimed some preventative success that included mock pregnancies and child care as well as the usual 'how it happens' and 'how not to'.

Adolescents and teens who are encouraged to volunteer at child care centres, in my experience, have been less likely to get pregnant at a young age. It's an eye-opener for them, seeing how attention demanding infants and toddlers are, seeing girls and boys as young as themselves dealing with being parents, unable to go out and have fun, constantly strapped for enough money to get by, and so on. I remember one girl, after two days at the daycare, firmly stating that she had decided never to have children at all.

I don't agree with the idea that intelligence or even education makes one a better parent, though. I've known intellectually handicapped and/or uneducated people who did an ace job of loving and raising children, and I've known a Rhodes scholar to neglect and fail their child. I think education regarding childbearing needs to be in the direction of 'wait until you are older'.

 

[Blackrend]

I don't agree with the idea that intelligence or even education makes one a better parent, though. I've known intellectually handicapped and/or uneducated people who did an ace job of loving and raising children, and I've known a Rhodes scholar to neglect and fail their child. I think education regarding childbearing needs to be in the direction of 'wait until you are older'.

People with low IQs can be great parents, but by "Intelligence" i meant "common sense".

 

[MarcusHill]

Any prohibition should be weighed up in terms of the social good it accomplishes. Unfortunately, measures of "good" are not absolute. I would agree that banning abortions would cause more harm than good, and also contend that prohibition of narcotics is more harmful than legally available and controlled narcotics. Others would disagree.

I also dislike the term "pro-abortion", but for different reasons. The anti-abortion* lobby paints pro-choice people as somehow wanting to increase the use of abortions as a replacement for contraception, or to force people to have abortions. Neither, of course, is true - we merely want a woman to be able to legally choose to have an abortion, hence "pro-choice". In a perfect world, abortions would not be needed by anyone.

*Yes, they are most accurately described as "anti-abortion", since what they want is to prevent anyone from having an abortion.

 

[oldbetang]

Also, this rant is concerning all abortions except partial birth and post-birth... since even people on the far-left will agree that those two methods are vile and extreme.

Name some prominent people on the far-left who agree that those two methods are vile and extreme. NARAL and other abortion peddlers don't believe that it should have been banned. What does that say about them?

However, millions of women sought out abortions anyway, causing an estimated 15,000 deaths per year due to complications during the procedure.

What is the time frame here and where did you come up with those figures?

 

[LittleNipper]

The truth is that two wrongs never make things right. The baby should not be victimized because some girl or woman was. We must become totally committed to both the woman involved and the baby she carries. Those that brought about the pregnancy should be held accountable and made to pay to raise the child, or they should be tried on rape/violence charges and made to pay society for such actions. A baby's life should only be sacrificed after every human & spiritual means has been sought in an effort to save the mother's life. Lives should never be cast aside for the sake of convenience nor expediency.

 

[Bombila]

Name some prominent people on the far-left who agree that those two methods are vile and extreme. NARAL and other abortion peddlers don't believe that it should have been banned. What does that say about them?
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What is the time frame here and where did you come up with those figures?

So much disinformation, so little tolerance.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_pba1.htm

 

[MarcusHill]

The truth is that two wrongs never make things right. The baby should not be victimized because some girl or woman was.

The woman should not be victimised because someone thinks a collection of cells has the same rights as she does. This is what I meant about differing definitions of "good", and it's what makes abortion very much a spectrum. Everyone agrees human beings deserve a right to life. Everyone agrees a baby, once born, is a human being. Everyone agrees that an unfertilised egg or sperm is not a human being. At every point in between there is disagreement. One thing I do know is that religion should have no part in public policy - your church's belief should only influence the life of someone outside it if you can defend the belief on secular grounds.

 

[Texas Lynn]

There are basically two reasons abortion should not be criminalized:

1. it's not any of the government's business.

2. Criminalizing abortion does more harm than good.

 

[oldbetang]

So much disinformation, so little tolerance.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_pba1.htm

LOL! I agree. A more inaptly named group there never was. Those people wouldn't know religious tolerance if it jumped up and bit them on the ass.