Why or why not become Anglican?

[Xeno.of.athens]

If that were true, how could we speak of an infallible magisterium? That's speaking of the institution, not the particular claim.

The magisterium is the teaching not the teachers, an inerrant magisterium is a magisterium whose doctrines and dogmas are infallible not whose members are infallible. This is a very basic distinction.

 

[Paidiske]

The magisterium is the teaching not the teachers, an inerrant magisterium is a magisterium whose doctrines and dogmas are infallible not whose members are infallible. This is a very basic distinction.

That's not what I see in Catholic sources. This, for example, was taken from a Catholic site (my bold):

"The term magisterium is based on the Latin word for “teacher” (magister). In contemporary Catholic usage, it has several meanings. First, it refers to the teaching authority which Christ has given to the Church. Here the term refers to the authority itself, not those who exercise it. This usage appears in statements like, “The Church exercises its magisterium when it authoritatively proclaims Christ’s teachings.”

Second, the term refers to those who exercise this teaching authority—in other words, to the pope and the bishops teaching in union with him. Collectively, they are referred to as the “Magisterium,” as in “the Magisterium has infallibly taught that God is a Trinity.”

Third, the term can refer to a particular body of teachings that have been authoritatively proclaimed. This usage appears in statements like, “Humanae Vitae belongs to the magisterium of St. Paul VI.”

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

That's not what I see in Catholic sources. This, for example, was taken from a Catholic site (my bold):

The CCC has this to say. Note especially: "2035 The supreme degree of participation in the authority of Christ is ensured by the charism of infallibility. This infallibility extends as far as does the deposit of divine Revelation; it also extends to all those elements of doctrine, including morals, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, explained, or observed.77"

---

I. Moral Life and the Magisterium of the Church

2032 The Church, the "pillar and bulwark of the truth," "has received this solemn command of Christ from the apostles to announce the saving truth."74 "To the Church belongs the right always and everywhere to announce moral principles, including those pertaining to the social order, and to make judgments on any human affairs to the extent that they are required by the fundamental rights of the human person or the salvation of souls."75​

​

2033 The Magisterium of the Pastors of the Church in moral matters is ordinarily exercised in catechesis and preaching, with the help of the works of theologians and spiritual authors. Thus from generation to generation, under the aegis and vigilance of the pastors, the "deposit" of Christian moral teaching has been handed on, a deposit composed of a characteristic body of rules, commandments, and virtues proceeding from faith in Christ and animated by charity. Alongside the Creed and the Our Father, the basis for this catechesis has traditionally been the Decalogue which sets out the principles of moral life valid for all men.​

​

2034 The Roman Pontiff and the bishops are "authentic teachers, that is, teachers endowed with the authority of Christ, who preach the faith to the people entrusted to them, the faith to be believed and put into practice."76 The ordinary and universal Magisterium of the Pope and the bishops in communion with him teach the faithful the truth to believe, the charity to practice, the beatitude to hope for.​

​

2035 The supreme degree of participation in the authority of Christ is ensured by the charism of infallibility. This infallibility extends as far as does the deposit of divine Revelation; it also extends to all those elements of doctrine, including morals, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, explained, or observed.77​

​

2036 The authority of the Magisterium extends also to the specific precepts of the natural law, because their observance, demanded by the Creator, is necessary for salvation. In recalling the prescriptions of the natural law, the Magisterium of the Church exercises an essential part of its prophetic office of proclaiming to men what they truly are and reminding them of what they should be before God.78​

​

2037 The law of God entrusted to the Church is taught to the faithful as the way of life and truth. the faithful therefore have the right to be instructed in the divine saving precepts that purify judgment and, with grace, heal wounded human reason.79 They have the duty of observing the constitutions and decrees conveyed by the legitimate authority of the Church. Even if they concern disciplinary matters, these determinations call for docility in charity.​

​

2038 In the work of teaching and applying Christian morality, the Church needs the dedication of pastors, the knowledge of theologians, and the contribution of all Christians and men of good will. Faith and the practice of the Gospel provide each person with an experience of life "in Christ," who enlightens him and makes him able to evaluate the divine and human realities according to the Spirit of God.80 Thus the Holy Spirit can use the humblest to enlighten the learned and those in the highest positions.​

​

2039 Ministries should be exercised in a spirit of fraternal service and dedication to the Church, in the name of the Lord.81 At the same time the conscience of each person should avoid confining itself to individualistic considerations in its moral judgments of the person's own acts. As far as possible conscience should take account of the good of all, as expressed in the moral law, natural and revealed, and consequently in the law of the Church and in the authoritative teaching of the Magisterium on moral questions. Personal conscience and reason should not be set in opposition to the moral law or the Magisterium of the Church.​

​

2040 Thus a true filial spirit toward the Church can develop among Christians. It is the normal flowering of the baptismal grace which has begotten us in the womb of the Church and made us members of the Body of Christ. In her motherly care, the Church grants us the mercy of God which prevails over all our sins and is especially at work in the sacrament of reconciliation. With a mother's foresight, she also lavishes on us day after day in her liturgy the nourishment of the Word and Eucharist of the Lord.​

​

74 1 Tim 3:15; LG 17.​

75 CIC, can. 747 # 2.​

76 LG 25.​

77 Cf. LG 25; CDF, declaration, Mysterium Ecclesiae 3.​

78 Cf. DH 14.​

79 Cf. CIC, can. 213.​

80 Cf. 1 Cor 2:10-15.​

81 Cf. Rom 12:8, 11.​

 

[Paidiske]

I don't know how you can read that, and not come to the conclusion that the Catholic church teaches that the "charism of infallibility" pertains to the people exercising that charism.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I don't know how you can read that, and not come to the conclusion that the Catholic church teaches that the "charism of infallibility" pertains to the people exercising that charism.

Oh, that is an easy question to answer; the charism appertains to the teaching, not to the teacher. In a similar way the charism of inspiration appertains to the holy scriptures and not to the writers thereof. Surely this is obvious.

 

[Paidiske]

Oh, that is an easy question to answer; the charism appertains to the teaching, not to the teacher. In a similar way the charism of inspiration appertains to the holy scriptures and not to the writers thereof. Surely this is obvious.

Not obvious at all when I read it. Nor is that what various explanatory Catholic sources say.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Not obvious at all when I read it. Nor is that what various explanatory Catholic sources say.

It is what the sources I have cited say. I cannot vouch for the sources you have alluded to.

 

[Paidiske]

Well, for examples, I find sources that say things like, that the charism of infallibility belongs to the body of bishops as a whole (as well as the pope). Or that infallibility is defined as "the privilege by which the teaching office of the Church, through the assistance of the Holy Ghost, is preserved immune from error." Those statements ascribe infallibility to particular offices, not to the statements made by the holders of those offices.

Msgr Van Noort says this (emphasis in the original):
"The teaching office of the Church or, as they say, ‘the teaching Church,’ is made up of those to whom God entrusted the right and the duty to teach the Christian religion authoritatively. The words ‘in matters of faith and morals in such a way as to require of everyone full and absolute assent’ are included in the proposition because, according to Catholic teaching, the Church's rulers are infallible not in any and every exercise of their teaching power; but only when, using all the fulness of their authority, they clearly intend to bind everyone to absolute assent or, as common parlance puts it, when they “define” something in matters pertaining to the Christian religion."

(Source here: THE INFALLIBILITY OF THE ORDINARY AND EXTRAORDINARY MAGISTERIUM)

Note there that it's both that the church's rulers are infallible and that this requires of everyone full and absolute assent, which is exactly the understanding I was objecting to back in post #56.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Well, for examples, I find sources that say things like, that the charism of infallibility belongs to the body of bishops as a whole (as well as the pope). Or that infallibility is defined as "the privilege by which the teaching office of the Church, through the assistance of the Holy Ghost, is preserved immune from error." Those statements ascribe infallibility to particular offices, not to the statements made by the holders of those offices.

I think that your interpretation is in error, it is always the statements that are infallible, the people are not infallible.

Msgr Van Noort says this (emphasis in the original):
"The teaching office of the Church or, as they say, ‘the teaching Church,’ is made up of those to whom God entrusted the right and the duty to teach the Christian religion authoritatively. The words ‘in matters of faith and morals in such a way as to require of everyone full and absolute assent’ are included in the proposition because, according to Catholic teaching, the Church's rulers are infallible not in any and every exercise of their teaching power; but only when, using all the fulness of their authority, they clearly intend to bind everyone to absolute assent or, as common parlance puts it, when they “define” something in matters pertaining to the Christian religion."

The passage is not the most felicitous but the intent is still clear, it is the statements that are infallible, the people are as fallible as any people from any walk of life. But when the bishops and especially the pope speaks with the intention of teaching infallible truth then they succeed. Yet they remain fallible men. Their statement is infallible.

 

[Paidiske]

I think that your interpretation is in error, it is always the statements that are infallible, the people are not infallible.

The passage is not the most felicitous but the intent is still clear, it is the statements that are infallible, the people are as fallible as any people from any walk of life. But when the bishops and especially the pope speaks with the intention of teaching infallible truth then they succeed. Yet they remain fallible men. Their statement is infallible.

I recognise that Catholic doctrine is not saying that these people are infallible in every moment in their lives, but only when exercising particular functions. That said, it seems clear to me from authoritative Catholic documents, that they are claiming infallibility for the people/office/institution, not only for the statements made.

Either way, I believe we have adequately covered the point I raised in answer to the OP; this is the point, for me, which made Catholicism impossible and, therefore, meant I chose Anglicanism instead.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

from authoritative Catholic documents, that they are claiming infallibility for the people/office/institution, not only for the statements made.

I suspect that the web site you used, an anti-sedi-vacantist site, is not authoritative.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church has far better credentials than the site you used.

 

[HosannaHM]

2034 The Roman Pontiff and the bishops are "authentic teachers, that is, teachers endowed with the authority of Christ, who preach the faith to the people entrusted to them, the faith to be believed and put into practice."76 The ordinary and universal Magisterium of the Pope and the bishops in communion with him teach the faithful the truth to believe, the charity to practice, the beatitude to hope for.​

​

2035 The supreme degree of participation in the authority of Christ is ensured by the charism of infallibility. This infallibility extends as far as does the deposit of divine Revelation; it also extends to all those elements of doctrine, including morals, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, explained, or observed.​

How can you read this side by side and come to the conclusion that the term "Magisterium" only applies to the teaching and not the teachers? 2034 seems to say exactly what you're arguing against. Paidiske is right on with the Latin origin of the term. Also, Magister/Magistra are the Latin terms for teacher.

I know you're not going for this, but your argument sounds more Protestant than Catholic. If "the magisterium" (defined by you as the teaching word) is ultimately authoritative and has nothing to do with the teachers, then the Bible stands as the ultimate teaching authority over the church as opposed to along with the church. That doesn't sound RCC. It sounds like Luther

 

[HosannaHM]

I recognise that Catholic doctrine is not saying that these people are infallible in every moment in their lives, but only when exercising particular functions. That said, it seems clear to me from authoritative Catholic documents, that they are claiming infallibility for the people/office/institution, not only for the statements made.

Either way, I believe we have adequately covered the point I raised in answer to the OP; this is the point, for me, which made Catholicism impossible and, therefore, meant I chose Anglicanism instead.

And I appreciate it! The Anglican position looks more in line with what I understand to be authoritative. Scripture, Tradition, Reason.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

How can you read this side by side and come to the conclusion that the term "Magisterium" only applies to the teaching and not the teachers? 2034 seems to say exactly what you're arguing against. Paidiske is right on with the Latin origin of the term. Also, Magister/Magistra are the Latin terms for teacher.

That would be because it is the teaching that is true, the teacher is a man, pretty well always a man, who may or may not make mistakes when he is teaching, but the dogmas and doctrines of the Church which are the sources for his teaching are not mistakes.

I know you're not going for this, but your argument sounds more Protestant than Catholic. If "the magisterium" (defined by you as the teaching word) is ultimately authoritative and has nothing to do with the teachers, then the Bible stands as the ultimate teaching authority over the church as opposed to along with the church. That doesn't sound RCC. It sounds like Luther

The bible is a source for truth that we all, Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant, revere because its source is God himself, and in the case of God the teacher truly is infallible and inerrant because he is God and God is Truth. But the man who handles holy scripture is not God and his lessons may or may not be mistaken; this is why we have differences of opinion between theologians. None of this is remotely like Martin L:uther's notion of sola scriptura.

 

[HosannaHM]

That would be because it is the teaching that is true, the teacher is a man, pretty well always a man, who may or may not make mistakes when he is teaching, but the dogmas and doctrines of the Church which are the sources for his teaching are not mistakes.

Sure thing. I'm in 100% agreement that the Bible's teachings are truth, and God uses fallible people to communicate those truths.

The bible is a source for truth that we all, Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant, revere because its source is God himself, and in the case of God the teacher truly is infallible and inerrant because he is God and God is Truth. But the man who handles holy scripture is not God and his lessons may or may not be mistaken; this is why we have differences of opinion between theologians. None of this is remotely like Martin L:uther's notion of sola scriptura.

And I agree with the take on Holy Scripture too. I'm still not convinced on what you've said about the magisterium though, being that the CCC states that they are "The ordinary and universal Magisterium of the Pope and the bishops in communion with him (Christ)." Speaking of the teachers or "magistrates" of the church.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I'm still not convinced on what you've said about the magisterium though

I will not attempt to persuade you, but I will show you what the CCC has to say. On infallibility it says " infallibility extends as far as does the deposit of divine Revelation; it also extends to all those elements of doctrine, including morals, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, explained, or observed." The deposit of divine revelation consists of written and spoken truth received from God, it is teaching, but not the teachers, that have the quality of infallibility. The teachers have gifts and graces which can enable them to produce infallible teaching while they themselves remain fallible men just as the authors of holy scripture possessed gifts and graces which enabled them to produce the inspired holy scriptures while they themselves remained fallible men as capable of error and sin as any other men. Thus the chrisms of infallibility and inspiration that are present in men and exercised by men are no guarantee that the man so gifted is infallible or inspired, the chrisms extend only to the product of their exercise, namely holy scripture for the chrism of inspiration, and sacred tradition for the chrism of infallibility.

---

Article 3

THE CHURCH, MOTHER AND TEACHER

2030 It is in the Church, in communion with all the baptized, that the Christian fulfils his vocation. From the Church he receives the Word of God containing the teachings of "the law of Christ."72 From the Church he receives the grace of the sacraments that sustains him on the "way." From the Church he learns the example of holiness and recognizes its model and source in the all-holy Virgin Mary; he discerns it in the authentic witness of those who live it; he discovers it in the spiritual tradition and long history of the saints who have gone before him and whom the liturgy celebrates in the rhythms of the sanctoral cycle.

2031 The moral life is spiritual worship. We "present (our) bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God,"73 within the Body of Christ that we form and in communion with the offering of his Eucharist. In the liturgy and the celebration of the sacraments, prayer and teaching are conjoined with the grace of Christ to enlighten and nourish Christian activity. As does the whole of the Christian life, the moral life finds its source and summit in the Eucharistic sacrifice.

72
73 Rom 12:1.

I. Moral Life and the Magisterium of the Church

2032 The Church, the "pillar and bulwark of the truth," "has received this solemn command of Christ from the apostles to announce the saving truth."74 "To the Church belongs the right always and everywhere to announce moral principles, including those pertaining to the social order, and to make judgments on any human affairs to the extent that they are required by the fundamental rights of the human person or the salvation of souls."75

2033 The Magisterium of the Pastors of the Church in moral matters is ordinarily exercised in catechesis and preaching, with the help of the works of theologians and spiritual authors. Thus from generation to generation, under the aegis and vigilance of the pastors, the "deposit" of Christian moral teaching has been handed on, a deposit composed of a characteristic body of rules, commandments, and virtues proceeding from faith in Christ and animated by charity. Alongside the Creed and the Our Father, the basis for this catechesis has traditionally been the Decalogue which sets out the principles of moral life valid for all men.

2034 The Roman Pontiff and the bishops are "authentic teachers, that is, teachers endowed with the authority of Christ, who preach the faith to the people entrusted to them, the faith to be believed and put into practice."76 The ordinary and universal Magisterium of the Pope and the bishops in communion with him teach the faithful the truth to believe, the charity to practice, the beatitude to hope for.

2035 The supreme degree of participation in the authority of Christ is ensured by the charism of infallibility. This infallibility extends as far as does the deposit of divine Revelation; it also extends to all those elements of doctrine, including morals, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, explained, or observed.77

2036 The authority of the Magisterium extends also to the specific precepts of the natural law, because their observance, demanded by the Creator, is necessary for salvation. In recalling the prescriptions of the natural law, the Magisterium of the Church exercises an essential part of its prophetic office of proclaiming to men what they truly are and reminding them of what they should be before God.78

2037 The law of God entrusted to the Church is taught to the faithful as the way of life and truth. the faithful therefore have the right to be instructed in the divine saving precepts that purify judgment and, with grace, heal wounded human reason.79 They have the duty of observing the constitutions and decrees conveyed by the legitimate authority of the Church. Even if they concern disciplinary matters, these determinations call for docility in charity.

2038 In the work of teaching and applying Christian morality, the Church needs the dedication of pastors, the knowledge of theologians, and the contribution of all Christians and men of good will. Faith and the practice of the Gospel provide each person with an experience of life "in Christ," who enlightens him and makes him able to evaluate the divine and human realities according to the Spirit of God.80 Thus the Holy Spirit can use the humblest to enlighten the learned and those in the highest positions.

2039 Ministries should be exercised in a spirit of fraternal service and dedication to the Church, in the name of the Lord.81 At the same time the conscience of each person should avoid confining itself to individualistic considerations in its moral judgments of the person's own acts. As far as possible conscience should take account of the good of all, as expressed in the moral law, natural and revealed, and consequently in the law of the Church and in the authoritative teaching of the Magisterium on moral questions. Personal conscience and reason should not be set in opposition to the moral law or the Magisterium of the Church.

2040 Thus a true filial spirit toward the Church can develop among Christians. It is the normal flowering of the baptismal grace which has begotten us in the womb of the Church and made us members of the Body of Christ. In her motherly care, the Church grants us the mercy of God which prevails over all our sins and is especially at work in the sacrament of reconciliation. With a mother's foresight, she also lavishes on us day after day in her liturgy the nourishment of the Word and Eucharist of the Lord.

74 1 Tim 3:15; LG 17.
75 CIC, can. 747 # 2.
76 LG 25.
77 Cf. LG 25; CDF, declaration, Mysterium Ecclesiae 3.
78 Cf. DH 14.
79 Cf. CIC, can. 213.
80 Cf. 1 Cor 2:10-15.
81 Cf. Rom 12:8, 11.

 

[Jacque_Pierre22]

There is actually a Syriac Orthodox Church, called the Malankara Independent Syrian Church, which is one of three Syriac Orthodox Churches in India, the result of a schism between the two larger ones, the Jacobites and the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church, which lately has called itself the Indian Orthodox Church, because the Jacobites want to remain under the Patriarch of Antioch and the IOC does not, and the IOC has actually persecuted the Jacobites to some extent with assistance of the state and the corrupt legal situation, but before things reached that level of nastiness, the church in Thoyizoor decided it wanted nothing to do with the absurd schism, and frankly I don’t blame them. This church entered into relations with the protestant Mar Thoma Syrian Church, which is a full member of the Anglican Communion. When the Mar Thoma Metropolitan in charge of that church dies, his successor is ordained by the Metropolitan of Thoyizoor, and vice-versa. The Malankara Independent Syrian Church however is in all functional respects an Oriental Orthodox church, using the traditional liturgy, and I believe it even has some relations with the other Oriental Orthodox patriarchates (this is the case with the IOC, and part of the reason why the IOC has been successful, because, pragmatically, the Copts, Armenians and Ethiopians have been willing to relate to it as though it were another Oriental Orthodox Patriarchate, but this was probably the right decision, because the IOC has in the past supported schismatic Syriac Orthodox clergy in the Middle East, and there was a real risk of the IOC forming something which could have been like the Old Calendarist movement in the Eastern Orthodox Church or the Global South in the Anglican Communion, albeit not driven by any particular doctrine but rather simply by resentment for the established order.

And the Oriental Orthodox have had enough of that. There are, for example, four separate Armenian Apostolic Churches, which are now once again in full communion; the two larger ones existed historically because for a time there were two Armenian Kingdoms, that of Armenia proper and that of Cilicia, but in the 20th century, after Armenia proper was illegally annexed by the Soviet Union, many Armenians started to distrust the Catholicos of All Armenia, and instead formed parishes associated with the Catholicos of Cilicia. No one in Oriental Orthodox wants to return to this pointless factionalism.

But the interesting result of all of this is there is an Oriental Orthodox church in full communion with the Anglican Communion via the Mar Thoma Syrian Church.

I'm looking for info on the Mar Thoma church. Do they believe in faith alone and justification or theosis as in EO? what about Sola Scriptura thanks a lot