Why or what is it that makes you or leads or led you to believe that a God does not exist...?

Neogaia777 · Sep 25, 2016

Why or what is it that makes you or leads or led you to believe that a God does not exist...?

I posted this here in the Physical and Life sciences forum, because those are atypically the ones who think they have a good, logical, valid, or scientific reason for not believing a God does or could exist, and I'd like to hear those...?

Please post any and all good, logical, valid, or scientific, or other reasons for believing a God does not exist and how you came to know or believe you are certain of it, please...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

SteveB28 · Sep 26, 2016

Neogaia777 said:
Why or what is it that makes you or leads or led you to believe that a God does not exist...?

I posted this here in the Physical and Life sciences forum, because those are atypically the ones who think they have a good, logical, valid, or scientific reason for not believing a God does or could exist, and I'd like to hear those...?

Please post any and all good, logical, valid, or scientific, or other reasons for believing a God does not exist and how you came to know or believe you are certain of it, please...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

I do not believe a god does not exist. I do not believe a god does exist.

Can you see the difference.........?

dickyh995 · Sep 26, 2016

1. You slightly misunderstand the general position of an Atheist, the Atheist rejects the positive claim of a God. Some claim a "strong" Atheist position and make the positive claim that no God exists, there's a big difference.
2. You are trying to shift the burden of proof and expecting people to prove a negative. If you make the claim a God exists, the burden rests on you to offer evidence to support your position. Should that evidence not be forthcoming, there is no reason to accept the claim.

Larniavc · Sep 26, 2016

Neogaia777 said:
Why or what is it that makes you or leads or led you to believe that a God does not exist...?

I posted this here in the Physical and Life sciences forum, because those are atypically the ones who think they have a good, logical, valid, or scientific reason for not believing a God does or could exist, and I'd like to hear those...?

Please post any and all good, logical, valid, or scientific, or other reasons for believing a God does not exist and how you came to know or believe you are certain of it, please...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

I've seen nothing to convince me he does exist: but I don't sit around ruminating on the fact that a deity who runs things does not exist.

That kind of deity might exist but I've not seen any compelling evidence to suggest that that is the case.

In the same way I've seen no compelling evidence to suggest any supernatural entity exists.

KCfromNC · Sep 26, 2016

Neogaia777 said:
Please post any and all good, logical, valid, or scientific, or other reasons for believing a God does not exist and how you came to know or believe you are certain of it, please...?

The complete lack of a reason to think any gods exist. Maybe I've missed one of them, but then again maybe I've missed conclusive evidence that unicorns are real. Neither possibility keeps me up at night.

TagliatelliMonster · Sep 26, 2016

Neogaia777 said:
Why or what is it that makes you or leads or led you to believe that a God does not exist...?

I posted this here in the Physical and Life sciences forum, because those are atypically the ones who think they have a good, logical, valid, or scientific reason for not believing a God does or could exist, and I'd like to hear those...?

Please post any and all good, logical, valid, or scientific, or other reasons for believing a God does not exist and how you came to know or believe you are certain of it, please...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

Your question is backwards, for me at least.

I don't require reasons to NOT believe something. First and foremost, I require reasons for the exact opposite.
Not having such reasons, will result in my non-belief by default.

As such, I don't see any good / valid / rational reasons to accept religious claims as true or likely. So, I don't.

FrumiousBandersnatch · Sep 26, 2016

For me, it depends on precisely what you mean by 'god' or 'God'. for example, I don't think/believe the traditional monotheistic tri-omni God exists, because it would entail absurd logical contradictions, but there are ways to downgrade that concept to avoid such contradictions.

I think the gods of the major religions are myths, imaginative fictions of the human mind, because the behaviour of the observable universe, this world, and the people in it, appears consistent with that explanation and inconsistent with the alternative (that one or more gods are objectively real).

I would change my opinion if the circumstances changed to unequivocally indicate the existence of some god, although I can't imagine what those circumstances would look like.

jayem · Sep 26, 2016

Off the top of my head, I can think of 2 arguments against the Abrahamic god.

1) If this is the God who created all of us, I'd expect everyone's concept of god to be quite similar. Yet people have worshiped thousands of gods, many of whom are quite different from each other. Most gods are part of a polytheistic belief system. Unitary gods are rarer. It's also a fact that different gods are geographically associated with societies inhabiting those geographic regions. The logical conclusion is that gods are creations of specific cultures. The god of the Bible is just the one created by the ancient Hebrews. If there is any similarity between all the gods of the world, it's that each society thinks its god is the one, true God. Logic tells us they can't all be right. But they can all be wrong.

2) A quality of the the Abrahamic god is said to be perfection. Anselm of Canterbury's argument for God's existence is based on the idea that God is the most perfect entity that can possibly be conceived. If this is true, why would a perfect being create an entire universe? Logically, it seems to me that a totally perfect being would have no reason to do anything at all.

RickG · Sep 26, 2016

Neogaia777 said:
Why or what is it that makes you or leads or led you to believe that a God does not exist...?

I am not quite at the point of saying God does not exist, but I do entertain the possibility they he may not exist. Why? "Creation Science". If one has to deliberately misrepresent science and make stuff up about God to believe in God, that seems to present a problem.

Cute Tink · Sep 26, 2016

Neogaia777 said:
Why or what is it that makes you or leads or led you to believe that a God does not exist...?

I posted this here in the Physical and Life sciences forum, because those are atypically the ones who think they have a good, logical, valid, or scientific reason for not believing a God does or could exist, and I'd like to hear those...?

Please post any and all good, logical, valid, or scientific, or other reasons for believing a God does not exist and how you came to know or believe you are certain of it, please...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

Not sure if many (or any around here) fit the exact requirements that you are looking for here. I don't have any logical or scientific reasons for not believing. I simply lack any convincing reason to believe.

Michael · Sep 26, 2016

jayem said:
Off the top of my head, I can think of 2 arguments against the Abrahamic god.

1) If this is the God who created all of us, I'd expect everyone's concept of god to be quite similar. Yet people have worshiped thousands of gods, many of whom are quite different from each other. Most gods are part of a polytheistic belief system. Unitary gods are rarer. It's also a fact that different gods are geographically associated with societies inhabiting those geographic regions. The logical conclusion is that gods are creations of specific cultures. The god of the Bible is just the one created by the ancient Hebrews. If there is any similarity between all the gods of the world, it's that each society thinks its god is the one, true God. Logic tells us they can't all be right. But they can all be wrong.

Well that sort of flies in the face about how we separate ourselves on other various belief systems, like politics, or science, or whatever. The other flaw in your logic is that while all religions can all be false, they can all be false, and yet an intelligent creator may still exist.

2) A quality of the the Abrahamic god is said to be perfection. Anselm of Canterbury's argument for God's existence is based on the idea that God is the most perfect entity that can possibly be conceived. If this is true, why would a perfect being create an entire universe? Logically, it seems to me that a totally perfect being would have no reason to do anything at all.

I love it when atheists "assume" what God would and would not do.

Michael · Sep 26, 2016

FrumiousBandersnatch said:
For me, it depends on precisely what you mean by 'god' or 'God'. for example, I don't think/believe the traditional monotheistic tri-omni God exists, because it would entail absurd logical contradictions, but there are ways to downgrade that concept to avoid such contradictions.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "downgrading" the concept, but I'm glad you added a disclaimer in there so that I didn't feel slighted.

I think the gods of the major religions are myths, imaginative fictions of the human mind, because the behaviour of the observable universe, this world, and the people in it, appears consistent with that explanation and inconsistent with the alternative (that one or more gods are objectively real).

How so?

I would change my opinion if the circumstances changed to unequivocally indicate the existence of some god, although I can't imagine what those circumstances would look like.

So essentially you cannot even conceive of any circumstance that might alter your beliefs. How is that any different from fundamentalist theism?

Michael · Sep 26, 2016

TagliatelliMonster said:
Your question is backwards, for me at least.

I don't require reasons to NOT believe something. First and foremost, I require reasons for the exact opposite.
Not having such reasons, will result in my non-belief by default.

As such, I don't see any good / valid / rational reasons to accept religious claims as true or likely. So, I don't.

That's an example of weak atheism as opposed to strong atheism. Most of the responses in this thread fall into that category.

SteveB28 · Sep 26, 2016

Michael said:
Well that sort of flies in the face about how we separate ourselves on other various belief systems, like politics, or science, or whatever. The other flaw in your logic is that while all religions can all be false, they can all be false, and yet an intelligent creator may still exist.

I love it when atheists "assume" what God would and would not do.

I love it when theists assume God.........

FrumiousBandersnatch · Sep 26, 2016

Michael said:
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "downgrading" the concept...

I mean reducing the scope of the tri-omni's to remove the logical contradictions. Basically, they would become more mundane - 'very powerful', 'very knowledgeable', and 'very benevolent'. The issue then would be is that really what is meant by a god?

How so?

In too many ways to list - perhaps you could suggest some ways that the universe, the world, and the people in it, behave, that are just what you'd expect if it was the creation of a god?

So essentially you cannot even conceive of any circumstance that might alter your beliefs. How is that any different from fundamentalist theism?

No, my belief only applies to a logically contradictory god definition; but for the rest, as I said, I would change my opinion if the circumstances changed to unequivocally indicate the existence of some god; I just can't imagine what those circumstances might be; my imagination is limited. But, of course, an omniscient entity would know, and an omnipotent entity could do it

jayem · Sep 26, 2016

Michael said:
Well that sort of flies in the face about how we separate ourselves on other various belief systems, like politics, or science, or whatever. The other flaw in your logic is that while all religions can all be false, they can all be false, and yet an intelligent creator may still exist.

I don't know if some other creative force could exist--it would depend on how that force is theorized. But I stated at the very beginning of my post that I was addressing the Abrahamic god specifically. The qualities that are ascribed to this god present unavoidable logical problems.

I love it when atheists "assume" what God would and would not do.

The topic of this thread is to demonstrate a logical or scientific reason why one would not believe in a god. I'm using a priori (AKA, deductive) logic. Which is reasoning from the general to the specific. My only assumption is that the Judeo-Christian God is absolutely perfect in every way. Which is also the general presumption. The specific is what such an entity would do. My conclusion is that I cannot think of anything a completely perfect entity would do. Where can you go when you start at total and utter perfection? You don't have to agree with this. But I want to explain it clearly.

Michael · Sep 26, 2016

FrumiousBandersnatch said:
I mean reducing the scope of the tri-omni's to remove the logical contradictions. Basically, they would become more mundane - 'very powerful', 'very knowledgeable', and 'very benevolent'. The issue then would be is that really what is meant by a god?

I'd be happy with "very" qualities, and frankly the whole "omni" argument seems silly to me personally.

In too many ways to list - perhaps you could suggest some ways that the universe, the world, and the people in it, behave, that are just what you'd expect if it was the creation of a god?

I'd say it behaves in a way that is consistent with "free will", a trait presumably endowed by our creator. I'm not exactly sure what you personally expecting.

No, my belief only applies to a logically contradictory god definition; but for the rest, as I said, I would change my opinion if the circumstances changed to unequivocally indicate the existence of some god; I just can't imagine what those circumstances might be; my imagination is limited. But, of course, an omniscient entity would know, and an omnipotent entity could do it

In my experience, some atheists tend to try to use the "omni" argument as a justification for a lack of belief in some very specific definition they wish to impose on reality. It doesn't really work that way however in the real world.

Michael · Sep 26, 2016

jayem said:
I don't know if some other creative force could exist--it would depend on how that force is theorized. But I stated at the very beginning of my post that I was addressing the Abrahamic god specifically. The qualities that are ascribed to this god present unavoidable logical problems.

I'm skeptical that there's really a single "Abrahamic" definition of God since Abraham is the root of at least three major religions. and nearly countless sub-definitions. I get the feeling that perhaps you're describing a general concept that is defined by you personally.

The topic of this thread is to demonstrate a logical or scientific reason why one would not believe in a god. I'm using a priori (AKA, deductive) logic. Which is reasoning from the general to the specific. My only assumption is that the Judeo-Christian God is absolutely perfect in every way.

Er, "perfect" by who's standards, yours or Gods?

Which is also the general presumption.

I'm not sure that's actually true since at least "some" branches of Christianity believe that a satan figure can "win" sometimes. Is that "perfection"? I'm not sure Christians require perfection of God as you seem to assume.

The specific is what such an entity would do. My conclusion is that I cannot think of anything a completely perfect entity would do. Where can you go when you start at total and utter perfection? You don't have to agree with this. But I want to explain it clearly.

Your argument amounts to: Because you can't personally think of anything that a "perfect' being might do, such a being cannot exist. That's really not much of a logical argument from my perspective.

Michael · Sep 26, 2016

SteveB28 said:
I love it when theists assume God.........

It's actually more of an ongoing experience rather than an assumption at this point in my life, but that's virtually impossible to prove or to even to convey properly to another human being in cyberspace.

HitchSlap · Sep 26, 2016

I've yet to see any evidence for a god/s, therefore I remain an agnostic atheist.

Why or what is it that makes you or leads or led you to believe that a God does not exist...?

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