why not?

[com7fy8]

In another thread Loudmouth asked,

why not make Earth like Heaven?

Romans 8:20-21 says, "For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God."

I personally understand this means that the earth, part of "the creation", will be changed into "the glorious liberty of the children of God" . . . when there is the "new heaven and a new earth", as Revelation 21:1 says. The "new earth" will be in the "glorious liberty" that we are in . . . resurrectional in glory like we will be

And, "of course", this resurrectional glory of Jesus will be in His love. So, it will all be of love, like in heaven . . . on earth as in heaven, which ones have been saying in prayer, for some time

So, God does agree with the "suggestion" that earth be like heaven . . . but in due time >

Jesus says, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven," in Luke 10:18. So . . . I understand . . . Satan got thrown out of heaven, to this earth.

And this earth is where God is keeping Satan and his kingdom, for now. Earth, for now, is God's prisoner-of-war camp for evil.

But God is multi-tasking, with this earth. He also is using this earth as His place for adopting children and bringing us up, to spend eternity with our Groom Jesus. "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29)

So, there is more going on, here, than what this evil world is calling our attention to!!

We can have all that is good, in spite of the evil. "Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." (Romans 12:21)

Most of all is how in our character we overcome evil, by not letting evil get the better of us. "And who is he who will harm you if you become followers of what is good?" (1 Peter 3:13)

So, in us we can enjoy the good of God's love > "Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5) This is heaven's love which we can enjoy now

It is not wise to let evil decide if we do this, or not! "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18)

Jesus came to deliver us from evil > "Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage." (Hebrews 2:14-15)

So, "fear of death" is not in God's love. So, in order to be ready for heaven, now we can be changed in our nature so we are real in God's love, then be able to stay in heaven. After all, Satan was in heaven . . . with all that perfect surrounding situation, with love and all; yet, he was not happy there and felt he had to change things; so he was thrown out. And, like him, any wrong person can not be satisfied, even in perfect surroundings . . . like Satan was not satisfied, even in heaven. So, now we can get the love character which has contentment, no matter what (Philippians 4:10-13), being satisfied with God and loving (Hebrews 13:5, Psalm 63:3) which we can enjoy, no matter what our situation. And this makes us ready to stay with Jesus our Groom for eternity

 

[Ana the Ist]

Sounds awful.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

"A world without suffering + Heaven" > "A world with suffering + Heaven"

 

[PsychoSarah]

An omnipotent being would never have to allow suffering to even have the potential of coming into existence. All those who fail the trials of god do so with god knowing they would fail long before they were even born, making going through the motions of the trials to begin with redundant and pointless.

 

[Received]

"A world without suffering + Heaven" > "A world with suffering + Heaven"

I don't know what to make of suffering. But I know that virtually every experience of significant suffering has turned me into a better person -- stronger, and with a better appreciation and valuation of the things I do have. There's always a potential kernel of goodness in the evil of suffering, which isn't at all to call suffering by itself good.

 

[decent orange]

An omnipotent being would never have to allow suffering to even have the potential of coming into existence. All those who fail the trials of god do so with god knowing they would fail long before they were even born, making going through the motions of the trials to begin with redundant and pointless.

What experience in omnipotence have you acquired in order to correctly understand that suffering would never be allowed by an omnipotent one?

It seems to me that everything has an opposite by default. The exact moment goodness is, evil is also. The same for hot and cold, wet and dry, hard and soft , ect.

One of the first things discussed in the Bible is the creation of the things , and afterwards in the same chapter, the seperation of those things from each other relative to the humanity that was to be made.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I don't know what to make of suffering. But I know that virtually every experience of significant suffering has turned me into a better person -- stronger, and with a better appreciation and valuation of the things I do have. There's always a potential kernel of goodness in the evil of suffering, which isn't at all to call suffering by itself good.

All things an omnipotent god could give you without the suffering...

Like I said in another thread, go ask someone being tortured whether they'd prefer - the lessons they're learning from being tortured, or for suffering to not exist at all.

 

[Received]

All things an omnipotent god could give you without the suffering...

Like I said in another thread, go ask someone being tortured whether they'd prefer - the lessons they're learning from being tortured, or for suffering to not exist at all.

You're not contradicting my point, and I don't know what omnipotence means.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

You're not contradicting my point, and I don't know what omnipotence means.

Are you saying you've never heard the term, or you don't use the term because you thinks it's vague, or...

 

[Received]

Are you saying you've never heard the term, or you don't use the term because you thinks it's vague, or...

Vague. I've kinda given up on this point as a serious theological concept. Because say for example that omnipotence means "able to do anything, even logically impossible things." I have no idea what it would mean for a being to be able to make a square circle. So the definition of omnipotence as, "able to do anything logically possible." But the problem is that I don't know what is fully logically possible in any system that also maximizes goodness. A lot of suffering can be explained as a result of human freedom, in which case you can't logically allow for human freedom and undermine this freedom by always doing the best for human beings. You also can't say that all suffering is eternally harmful, given that a lot of suffering (probably all suffering) has the potential to be turned into better character. But I'll be damned if I'm going to judge someone's suffering as "character-building worthy" or not. You also have to distinguish between suffering and pain; the former involves some sort of mental aspect that either blows the pain out of proportion or assumes it will be there forever, thereby making it much worse. But again, I'll be damned if I'm going to pass judgments on someone and say, "yeah, you're making your pain worse because things seem hopeless and you don't have enough faith for the future that things will get better."

So I have an abstract idea of what omnipotence means, but I just have no idea what this would look like concretely in this incredibly complicated multivariate world. So I don't put too much weight on the term.

 

[com7fy8]

All things an omnipotent god could give you without the suffering...

Like I said in another thread, go ask someone being tortured whether they'd prefer - the lessons they're learning from being tortured, or for suffering to not exist at all.

But He does not give us things without the suffering. So, your definition of "omnipotent" does not apply to God who raised Jesus from the dead.

When Jesus rose from the dead, He still had those wounds, but those wounds could not make Him suffer. This is because the resurrection power almighty of God can not be made to suffer. So, while He may not remove all evil and suffering, all that nasty stuff is not powerful enough to make God suffer, or to make us suffer, as much as we stay and pray and obey in God's grace.

Paul says he took "pleasure" in his troubles > 2 Corinthians 12:9-10. Almighty grace could keep Paul in peace, even while he was attacked by this evil world.

Jesus says, "'Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:28-29)

So, in Jesus Christ's power with almighty immunity, we can have deeply soothing soul rest, in spite of however evil may be allowed to attack us > "Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." (Romans 12:21)

However, if we do not obey how Jesus gives us rest, we humans can suffer a lot of things because of our own nature making us weak enough to suffer. Our selfish nature makes us available to being tortured by worry and unforgiveness and boredom and other cruel things which are not in God's love.

 

[PsychoSarah]

What experience in omnipotence have you acquired in order to correctly understand that suffering would never be allowed by an omnipotent one?

It seems to me that everything has an opposite by default. The exact moment goodness is, evil is also. The same for hot and cold, wet and dry, hard and soft , ect.

One of the first things discussed in the Bible is the creation of the things , and afterwards in the same chapter, the seperation of those things from each other relative to the humanity that was to be made.

I never suggested omnipotence alone would mean god wouldn't allow suffering, it just shows god wouldn't need to allow suffering. Now, of course, your position is valid, if we were to assume god wasn't all good. Which most Christians would protest.

 

[Eudaimonist]

I don't know what to make of suffering. But I know that virtually every experience of significant suffering has turned me into a better person -- stronger, and with a better appreciation and valuation of the things I do have. There's always a potential kernel of goodness in the evil of suffering, which isn't at all to call suffering by itself good.

You are fortunate, then. Because suffering can weaken people and damage them for life.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Received]

You are fortunate, then. Because suffering can weaken people and damage them for life.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Oh, undoubtedly on that. But I think the pivot point is the attitude they have regarding their suffering. I think any person can find strength and growth in their suffering provided they have the right perspective. At the same time, I'm not going to call each person who has suffered out and say they're not looking hard enough. I'll hold skepticism for the sake of humanism with each particular case.

 

[com7fy8]

Oh, undoubtedly on that. But I think the pivot point is the attitude they have regarding their suffering. I think any person can find strength and growth in their suffering provided they have the right perspective. At the same time, I'm not going to call each person who has suffered out and say they're not looking hard enough. I'll hold skepticism for the sake of humanism with each particular case.

I know the Bible says, "And who is he who will harm you if you become followers of what is good?" (1 Peter 3:13) So, I can be tempted to look down on someone who is suffering deeply and criticize the person - - judging that if the person was walking with God, then he or she would not stay hurt. But Jesus is our Great Physician who came with compassion, not criticism. He is not interested in looking down on anyone . . . like I still can!!!

Jesus says, "'Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.'" (Matthew 11:28) So, Jesus knows people are suffering deeply; He cares how we feel . . . if He knows people are "heavy laden" and He wants to give us "rest". This is part of God being almighty > in spite of the evil, He still cares about even evil people who are deeply suffering because of their own evil > "all" who are "heavy laden" means everyone

God who is almighty does not allow evil to decide how He is and what He does. And He commands us to be like this > "Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." (Romans 12:21)

So, yes in God's grace we can become strong in love enough so evil can not have us in intimate relating with fear and lusts and unforgiveness.

"My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness," Jesus says to Paul, in 2 Corinthians 12:9.

The real battle, then, is not against the outward evil, but how in us we become in our character so evil can not decide how we are and control what we believe. It is not wise to let evil decide if we have hope in God or not. Because evil is by design working to keep people from believing in God through Jesus. And there are people who actually promote that you can't do much about deep suffering. But if you depend only on physical things to try to ease deeper spiritual and emotional suffering . . . we need to depend on our Father through Jesus. He is almighty, meaning He can easily and breezily and beautifully sweetly cure us and soothe us with Jesus Christ's soul-soothing rest which is almighty against how Satanic people and things would effect us.

"'Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:20)