Why not join the LWF?

[JMRE5150]

This is for the LCMS and WELS groups to answer.

What is the driving force by not joining the Lutheran World Foundation?

What are your benefits by not being a member church?

Currently, 136 churches from 76 countries belong to the LWF. These churches represent 62.3 million of the world's 66 million Lutherans.

Here is the breakdown graph direct from the site:
http://www.lutheranworld.org/images/LWF_Photos/Home/membership-en-big.gif

Just curious as to why the exclusion?


Robb

 

[Lotar]

Do you mean Lutheran World Federation?

The main reason is because of it being dominated by the theologically liberal. We enter communion with those who are doctrinal agreement with us. And we believe that unity must be achieved through agreement, not by ignoring differences.

We do take part in the LWF World Relief organization.

 

[theologia crucis]

I've only got a second or two, but Lotar's pretty much right, the ILC and LWF aren't in doctrinal agreement. And most of it is due to liberal theological tendencies (ILC = historical-grammatical biblical interpretation [the historical Lutheran way] versus LWF ~ historical-critical biblical interpretation [modern liberal way where much of the supernatural can be removed from the Scriptures]). I do know that there is a growing movement within the ELCA to return closer to it's historic roots (i.e. historical-grammatical and confessional).

A big "to do" was at Helsinki in 1962, where the LWF somewhat abandoned the historic Lutheran position on justification. And since that time, the LWF has joined in communion with the Reformed, Episcopal, etc., something Lutherans that truly know and understand their Biblical doctrine would never do as a corporate church body.

The other biggie is the JDDJ, which is a really weak theological document that doesn't resolve fundamental differences between confessional Lutherans and Roman Catholics (i.e.: original sin, the bondage of the will, repentance, grace, propter Christum, etc.).

But, we do get together with Thrivent! And Lutheran World Relief!

 

[JMRE5150]

Do you mean Lutheran World Federation?

The main reason is because of it being dominated by the theologically liberal. We enter communion with those who are doctrinal agreement with us. And we believe that unity must be achieved through agreement, not by ignoring differences.

We do take part in the LWF World Relief organization.

Yes, I meant the federation, and the only thing odd with your statement is that the ELCA and the LCMS hold a somewhat decent partnership together, even though we have different doctrinal stances.

You know I wouldn't purposely through a monkey wrench at ya buddy, just tryin' to understand how the LWF differs from ELCA in regards to entering into communion. I mean, we dont exactly agree on everything together (thats obvious) but we still hold a certain "partnership". If the ELCA is acceptable to some extent, why not the LWF?

Or is it the whole "membership" thing...? Obviously we (ELCA) and you (LCMS) don't have "membership" with each other, so even though we do work together on some things, I can see where the "membership" issue could be a problem. Is that it?

Robb

 

[Lotar]

Yes, I meant the federation, and the only thing odd with your statement is that the ELCA and the LCMS hold a somewhat decent partnership together, even though we have different doctrinal stances.

You know I wouldn't purposely through a monkey wrench at ya buddy, just tryin' to understand how the LWF differs from ELCA in regards to entering into communion. I mean, we dont exactly agree on everything together (thats obvious) but we still hold a certain "partnership". If the ELCA is acceptable to some extent, why not the LWF?

Or is it the whole "membership" thing...? Obviously we (ELCA) and you (LCMS) don't have "membership" with each other, so even though we do work together on some things, I can see where the "membership" issue could be a problem. Is that it?

Robb

We aren't in communion with the ECLA for the same reasons that Theo and I posted.

 

[JMRE5150]

We aren't in communion with the ECLA for the same reasons that Theo and I posted.

Well, the two sides are obviously "trying" to some extent.
Grabbed this article off the internet at a Lutheran site.

ELCA and LCMS discuss their relationship
E[size=+1]LCA and Lutheran Church­Missouri Synod representatives discussed on Nov. 12 in St. Louis renewing semiannual theological talks between the two church bodies. [/size]


Samuel Nafzger, executive director, LCMS Commission on Theology and Church Relations, said the LCMS is "concerned" that it had been left out of recent dialogues with the ELCA and Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches.

ELCA Presiding Bishop Mark S. Hanson questioned a resolution adopted by the 2001 LCMS national convention that called the ELCA "unorthodox." He said it was "confusing ... for an ecumenical partner to read that the LCMS does not consider the ELCA orthodox."

Nafzger said the resolution stated that the two churches don't have doctrinal agreement. And LCMS Secretary Raymond Hartwig said the resolution could be seen as an effort to reach out to the ELCA. "That is not how it was received," said Donald McCoid, bishop of the ELCA Southwestern Pennsylvania Synod and chair of the Conference of Bishops.


As we know, this "full communion" discussion has happened in the past, but it doesn't seem as if both sides are giving up just yet. Maybe I should have been more clear when I mean "hopes and intentions of full communion", rather than perceiving them as already done. I guess it would be better to ask "Why would the LCMS 'consider' relations with the ELCA but have no intentions of discussions with joining the WLF?"
I'm not trying to project a 'double standard' stance, so I just want both of you to understand its pure curiousity, not a cheap jab.

I personally never see us agreeing on the more obvious points, especially women Pastors. But nontheless, the thought of a "what if" intrigues me greatly.

 

[Lotar]

If we ever enter communion with all the members of the LWF, then we'll consider it.

We do have dialogue with the LWF from time to time.

We can hope and pray about the talks, but chances are nothing will come of it. Unless the ECLA reverses their positions on ordaining women and communion with non-Lutheran denominations, and it decides to accept scripture as infallible and the Lutheran confessions as the correct interpretation of scripture.

 

[JMRE5150]

Here's an interesting thought...


Let's say we agreed to not ordain women as Pastors.

What then? Do we send home the tons of ordained women? Or are they grandfathered in? (I know the answer to the last question)

I mean, I have seen my female Pastor change many lost lives around, and help lead them back to Christ. Do you tell her "Thanks for all the Christ-like work you've performed, but you gotta pack up and go get a new career at 50 years old?"

As for entering into communion with the other denoms, not all of us were thrilled about that, but it does pose a good agruement for it, as well as against it.

I don't intend you to answer this, but who knows who is getting it all right? I mean, what if we both stand in front of Jesus and he gives us both a slap in the back of the head (I'm kidding, naturally) and says "Didn't I tell you all to be as one? Now go sit in the corner and think about what you did for awhile (again, I'm kidding)".

On that thought, if we get to heaven, and its confirmed there are women Pastors, you know I'm gonna find you and point and say "Told ya so". Of course, there is a flipside...you could point at me and say the same. Hmmm, consider it a bet. Let's hope there is non-monetary gambling in heaven. (again, joking)

Robb

 

[JVAC]

The ELCA does accept the Lutheran confessions as the correct interpretation of Scripture. We hold true to the virtues laid down in the Book of Concord. Yet, I myself, don't know if the church accepts the Hoy Scriptures as infallable, we do think of them very highly though. We view the Holy Scriptures as St. John the Evangelist said, "But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."

It seems to me the ELCA is willing to do the bending required for unity but the LCMS will either stand straight or snap. Sorta like that old Tanya Tucker song from my youth, "Our love will last forever, if we are strong enough to bend."

-James

 

[JMRE5150]

According to the Lutheran Theological Seminary of Philadelphia, we do absolutely accept the Holy Scripture as infallible.

I'm actually surprised to see some folks didn't think so.

But then again, there are many misconceptions about the ELCA's stance on alot of things. I always thought it was clearly spelled out. *shrugs*
Oh, and James...why you make me remember that song? Now I feel old. Thanks, punk. *wink*

 

[Lotar]

In the ECLA constitution scripture is described as inspired and authoritive, but does not say it's infallible. It states that the Augsburg Confessions are "a true witness to the Gospel" and only desribes the rest of the Book of Concord as "valid interpretations."

But our top most objections is the ECLAs acceptance of historical criticism, open communion, full communion with non-Lutheran denominations, and the ordaination of women.

JVAC,
Our objective is not to make you bend, that is one of the things we want you to stop. The only way we will have communion is through agreement, not acceptance.