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Why not Dispensationalism?

JM

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A similar question was asked in the dispensational forum, so I thought I ask in here: Why do you believe covenant theology over dispensational theology?

I give a few points that I find troubling and I'm in the dispey camp.
1. literal method of bible reading - I find it hard to look at the bible in this way without using culture 'cling on's' such as post enlightenment outlook, rationalism, etc.
2. history - I find the roots of dispensational teaching foggy, or attacked outright

That's about it.

sp
 

Jon_

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Street Preacher said:
A similar question was asked in the dispensational forum, so I thought I ask in here: Why do you believe covenant theology over dispensational theology?

I give a few points that I find troubling and I'm in the dispey camp.
1. literal method of bible reading - I find it hard to look at the bible in this way without using culture 'cling on's' such as post enlightenment outlook, rationalism, etc.
2. history - I find the roots of dispensational teaching foggy, or attacked outright

That's about it.

sp
Hooo boy, where do I start?

One of the difficulties associated with critiquing Dispensationalism is that there are so many different varieties of it. I would start by saying that the inherent inconsistency of the theology is one of the reasons why I reject it, but there are many others. In fact, the only consistent form of Dispensationalism is "Ultradispensationalism," or "Bullingerism." Bullingerism follows Dispensational theology to its necessary conclusions and ends up denying the Gospel in the process.

To begin, Dispensationalism starts with a false premise: its hermeneutic. Almost all adherents claim that Dispensationalism is nothing more than "Biblical Theology," and that the key to this label is the literal interpretation of texts. But what is it that the Dispensationalist does that the Covenantalist does not? Both agree that if a passage appears to be meant to be read literally, it should be read literally. Furthermore, both agree that an obviously figurative or metaphorical passage should be read in such a way. No one says that when Jesus said, "I am the vine," that he meant we should pick grapes from him (John H. Gerstner). Furthermore, both agree that we should take every pain to attempt to interpret a passage literally unless the text will not allow it. I believe Scofield himself wrote this and it perfectly parallels what Martin Luther wrote on the same subject.

So where is the distinction? It rests in prophecy. Ever since Darby, the Dispensational hermeneutic has been the militant literal interpretation of Scripture, which is what led to such flights of fantasy as Hal Lindsey's, Late Great Planet Earth. But even in this the Dispensational frequently abandons his literal hermeneutic. Did Hal Lindsey portray the Russians as fighting in chariots using bows and spears? No, of course not. Again, the type of weaponry mentioned was seen as figurative of weaponry, not the literal type to be used.

The primary difference is that the Dispensationalist rigorously applies a literal interpretation wherever he thinks he can get away with it, only conceding when the natural conclusion is purely absurd. Now, in the case of Dispensational Premillennialism and the invention of the Rapture, non-Dispensationalists would certainly call this absurd, yet the interpretation remains.

The truth is that we all have presuppositions concerning theology and every other subject before we even begin to study. Dispensationalists presuppose certain truths about the Bible when they interpret prophecy. They presuppose that a literal translation is superior to a figurative one, even though large portions of prophecy have been figurative. He presupposes the division between Israel and the church and reads this out of the texts, instead of presupposing the unity of God's decrees between the Old and New Testament dispensations, and seeing the harmony of God's plan being fulfilled in the church--the true Israel.

That leads us into the next topic with which I take issue. Dispensationalism teaches that Israel and the church are unequivocally separate. It teaches that God's plan for the temporal nation of Israel is different from that of the church. It teaches that the New Testament church is a mystery, not predicted by Old Testament prophecy. It teaches that the reason for the church's existence is the rejection of the kingdom offered by Christ and not because God had predestinated that the Gentiles should be saved. It places the cause of the redemption of the Gentiles on the rejection of the kingdom by Israel.

Furthermore, Dispensationalism, while claiming to be Calvinistic, is entirely Arminian in its soteriology. This is evident in the assertion that the Old Testament saints were unregenerate. Any thorough-going Calvinist knows that salvation apart from regeneration is impossible. According to Dispensational "Calvinistic doctrine," no one was saved prior to Pentecost because the Holy Spirit was not actively regenerating anyone. Unless the Dispensationalist falls back to a Roman Catholic soteriology that teaches we can earn salvation by works (adherence to the law in the law dispensation), then his system is utterly inconsistent. If he says that Old Testament saints were saved by belief in Christ (as he must, or otherwise be labeled an heretic), then he must affirm regeneration by the Holy Spirit, as all men since Adam are born dead in sin.

There is also the grave spectre of Antinomianism inherent in Dispensational theology. Dispensationalism since Darby has taught that the human nature in man is not compromised at all. Instead, the believer is given a new nature that is the imputation not of Christ's righteousness, but of Christ himself. That is, the believer is given a new, divine nature. This reaks of pantheism. More importantly, Dispensational theology teaches that the elect are eternally elect (as they are) and that nothing exept faith is required for salvation: not works, nothing. This amounts to another Gospel, as the Epistle of James and others are quite clear that faith without works is dead. The Dispensationlist refuses to acknowledge the two and must in order to consistently divide the dispensation of the law and the dispensation of grace. The Dispensational system cannot support the idea of works being a necessary tenet of faith as this amounts to "legal ground," which has been abolished in the dispensation of grace. Therefore, in order to remain consistent with his system, the Dispensationalist must fall into Antinomian heresy and argue that faith alone saves, apart from any works whatsoever. A man may be a "carnal Christian" all his life and never once bear fruit, yet still be saved.

There are many more aspects that I could delve into, but I think these should sufficiently explain why I avoid Dispensationalism like the plague and encourage others to do the same.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
 
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Cajun Huguenot

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The short answer is because it is heterodox and way out of line with all the church for the first 1800 years.

The long answer would take books and there are good ones out there. One of the best that i've read on the subject is Dispensationalism Yesterday, today and Tomorrow by Crenshaw and Gunn both of whom are Dallas Theological Seminary grads. Today one is a pastor in the PCA (Presbyterian Church in America) and the other is in the REC (Reformed Episcopal Church).

Kenith
 
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Jon_

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Cajun Huguenot said:
The short answer is because it is heterodox and way out of line with all the church for the first 1800 years.

The long answer would take books and there are good ones out there. One of the best that i've read on the subject is Dispensationalism Yesterday, today and Tomorrow by Crenshaw and Gunn both of whom are Dallas Theological Seminary grads. Today one is a pastor in the PCA (Presbyterian Church in America) and the other is in the REC (Reformed Episcopal Church).

Kenith
Another apt critique is John H. Gerstner's Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
 
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JM

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Most of what you posted Jon has been denied over and over again by Dispensationalists Antinomianism being the main one. I don't believe dispensationalism teaches lawlessness so one can sin at all...the dispey is not anti law anymore then the covey is anti grace.

One of the main views that dispensationalists hold to is that of justification by the death of Christ only and not by His life (as well) like Reformed theology teaches. This teaching does have an effort on how the believer is to live. So, I bring up a few passages, not to debate because I only want the Reformed view...

"Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient..." 1 Tim. 1:9

"Now it is clear that no one is justified before God by the law, because the righteous will live by faith." Gal. 3:11

"If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." Hebrews 7

Does the Bible teach we can be righteous by following the law? The question then is, does following the Law make one righteous? Was Abram declared rigtheous because of his works or his faith?

So what is the purpose of the Law if it doesn't make one righteous?
So what is the basis as a rule of life for the believer?

Paul wrote, "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I LIVE BY THE FAITH OF THE SON OF GOD, who loved me, and gave Himself for me." Gal. 2:20 Because of Christ, I am a new creature (Gal. 6:15-16) set apart from the Law (2 Cor. 5:17; Eph. 2:8-10; 4:24; Col. 3:10)

I'm very interested in learning the Reformed view, I've sat on the fence for too long and need to know the facts.
 
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OWEN7

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Jon_ said:
That leads us into the next topic with which I take issue. Dispensationalism teaches that Israel and the church are unequivocally separate. It teaches that God's plan for the temporal nation of Israel is different from that of the church. It teaches that the New Testament church is a mystery, not predicted by Old Testament prophecy. It teaches that the reason for the church's existence is the rejection of the kingdom offered by Christ and not because God had predestinated that the Gentiles should be saved. It places the cause of the redemption of the Gentiles on the rejection of the kingdom by Israel.


This is where my biggest issue with dispensationalism lies. I can't consider myself to be covenantal yet, simply because I've been trying to make sense of each of the "sides" first.

and I'm not sure if i can let go of my credobaptismal beliefs.....



windi (aka Imblessed)
 
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Cajun Huguenot

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The main divide between Dispensationalism and Reformed thought is how we understand who are the Covenant people.

Who is the true Israel of God?
Is it ethnic Israel or Spiritual Israel (i.e. the Church). Historic Christianity always answered the Church before the rise of Dispensationalism in the early 19th centry.

Do God's promises apply to the Church (Spiritual/Covenant Israel) or do they apply to ethnic Israel?
Historic Christinity always said it was the former.

Did Darby discover something that ALL the Church had missed for 1800 years or did Darby err and invent a heterodox set of doctrines on this matter?
I believe the latter is true on the last question.

These things are the true dividing lines between Dispensationalists and ALL of historic Christianity before the rise of John Darby. I think the Church was right on these matters before Darby came along and invented a new and false teacihng on these items.

Coram Deo,
Kenith
 
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Cajun Huguenot

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OWEN7 said:
Quickie question which may or may not have a bearing on this discussion--

Classic premillenialism--- Covenantal? different?

I know classic premill is not like dispensational premill......

Classic premills had the same view of the relationship between the Church and Israel as the rest of the pre-Darby church. You can see this clearly in writings of Justin Martyr. (BTW- Even in Justin's day the church did not agree on eschatology. He was a premill but admits that many many agreed and many disagreed with his view.

Coram Deo,
Kenith
 
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OWEN7

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Cajun Huguenot said:
Classic premills had the same view of the relationship between the Church and Israel as the rest of the pre-Darby church. You can see this clearly in writings of Justin Martyr. (BTW- Even in Justin's day the church did not agree on eschatology. He was a premill but admits that many many agreed and many disagreed with his view.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

so would that be covenantal then?

My view right now is that the Church consists of Gentiles and Jews who have accepted Jesus, that the "Isreal of God", even in the OT was not necessarily the "ethnic" Isreal, but those who were Spiritual Isreal, or those who accepted and believed in God and His promise --IOW, those of faith.

The promises that God made to Isreal as a nation were given to those who believed in Him, and have been transferred to what we know as the Church.

I'm not seeing some new ethnic Isreal ruling after the return of Christduring the millenium. I can't believe that God would allow the reistablishment of a temple and of sacrifices of any kind.



I'm not sure how this belief falls in line though when it comes to classic premill theology. That's what I "think" I am(right now ;))
 
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Jon_

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Cajun Huguenot said:
Classic premills had the same view of the relationship between the Church and Israel as the rest of the pre-Darby church. You can see this clearly in writings of Justin Martyr. (BTW- Even in Justin's day the church did not agree on eschatology. He was a premill but admits that many many agreed and many disagreed with his view.

Coram Deo,
Kenith
Yes, this is true. Dispensationalists tend to aggrandize the existence of Premillennialism in the early church, though. I don't know why, though. Historic Premillennialism does not have anything to do with the Dispensational variety, which is a doctrine all to itself, with a number of idiosyncratic distinctions, the Rapture being the most apparent.

I find it almost comical to learn that many Dispensationalists claim Justin Martyr as an early teacher of their system. Nothing could be further from the truth! Justin Martyr was a staunch defender of the fact that the church was predicted by Old Testament prophecy and that the church is the intended recipient of the fulfillment of God's Messianic promise to Israel. In his dialogue with Trypho the Jew, he conclusively showed that the church is the fulfillment of the promise made to Abraham. He went so far as to say that the Old Testament Scriptures belong to the church because the whole of Scripture was written about Christ and the church is one with him.

In any case, Premillennialism was a minority view in the early church and was pretty well destroyed by Augustine and his contemporaries. It wasn't until after the Reformation that non-Amillennial speculation began to creep back into the church.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
 
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Jon_

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OWEN7 said:
so would that be covenantal then?

My view right now is that the Church consists of Gentiles and Jews who have accepted Jesus, that the "Isreal of God", even in the OT was not necessarily the "ethnic" Isreal, but those who were Spiritual Isreal, or those who accepted and believed in God and His promise --IOW, those of faith.

The promises that God made to Isreal as a nation were given to those who believed in Him, and have been transferred to what we know as the Church.

I'm not seeing some new ethnic Isreal ruling after the return of Christduring the millenium. I can't believe that God would allow the reistablishment of a temple and of sacrifices of any kind.



I'm not sure how this belief falls in line though when it comes to classic premill theology. That's what I "think" I am(right now ;))
"Classical" or Historic Premillennialism is a covenantal eschatology.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
 
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Cajun Huguenot

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OWEN7 said:
so would that be covenantal then?

My view right now is that the Church consists of Gentiles and Jews who have accepted Jesus, that the "Isreal of God", even in the OT was not necessarily the "ethnic" Isreal, but those who were Spiritual Isreal, or those who accepted and believed in God and His promise --IOW, those of faith.

The promises that God made to Isreal as a nation were given to those who believed in Him, and have been transferred to what we know as the Church.

I'm not seeing some new ethnic Isreal ruling after the return of Christduring the millenium. I can't believe that God would allow the reistablishment of a temple and of sacrifices of any kind.



I'm not sure how this belief falls in line though when it comes to classic premill theology. That's what I "think" I am(right now ;))

You are not dispensational. What you wrote is in line with the historic premill position. Covenant theology is in line with all the rest of the church aon the Subject of Israel and the church. It is dispensationalism that is the new position. This is an area that ALL the Church agreed before Darby came along in the early part of the 19th century.

I hope that helps.

Kenith
 
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Cajun Huguenot

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Jon_ said:
Yes, this is true. Dispensationalists tend to aggrandize the existence of Premillennialism in the early church, though. I don't know why, though. Historic Premillennialism does not have anything to do with the Dispensational variety, which is a doctrine all to itself, with a number of idiosyncratic distinctions, the Rapture being the most apparent.

I find it almost comical to learn that many Dispensationalists claim Justin Martyr as an early teacher of their system. Nothing could be further from the truth! Justin Martyr was a staunch defender of the fact that the church was predicted by Old Testament prophecy and that the church is the intended recipient of the fulfillment of God's Messianic promise to Israel. In his dialogue with Trypho the Jew, he conclusively showed that the church is the fulfillment of the promise made to Abraham. He went so far as to say that the Old Testament Scriptures belong to the church because the whole of Scripture was written about Christ and the church is one with him.

In any case, Premillennialism was a minority view in the early church and was pretty well destroyed by Augustine and his contemporaries. It wasn't until after the Reformation that non-Amillennial speculation began to creep back into the church.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

I find the dispy attempts to use Justin interesting. It shows that they "know not" of what they write/speak on this matter, or they are trying to be deceptive. I do give them the benefit of the doubt and chalk it up to ignorance most of the time.

Kenith
 
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OWEN7

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thanks guys!

I've been all over the board when it comes to the whole "End times" views. I started out dispensational pre-mill, pre-trib because it's the only thing I heard, but when I started really reading the bible it didn't jive. I went the whole other direction and was preterist for a while(even full preterist for about a week or so! :) ) then postmill and amill and now back to pre-mill but without the dispensational twist. I just didn't know that historic pre-mill was so different from pre-mill as 21st century america knows it!

Now that I know that I'm more covenantal than dispensational--I've got to see how this affects my beliefs in credobaptism.

Is it possible to be covenantal and a credobaptist?
 
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Jon_

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OWEN7 said:
thanks guys!

I've been all over the board when it comes to the whole "End times" views. I started out dispensational pre-mill, pre-trib because it's the only thing I heard, but when I started really reading the bible it didn't jive. I went the whole other direction and was preterist for a while(even full preterist for about a week or so! :) ) then postmill and amill and now back to pre-mill but without the dispensational twist. I just didn't know that historic pre-mill was so different from pre-mill as 21st century america knows it!

Now that I know that I'm more covenantal than dispensational--I've got to see how this affects my beliefs in credobaptism.

Is it possible to be covenantal and a credobaptist?
Inconsistently? Yes. ;)

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
 
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OWEN7

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Jon_ said:
Inconsistently? Yes. ;)

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

LOL

no one's ever accused me of being consistant........:D

actually, I've never had a "problem" with pedobaptism, as long as it's understood that it's symbolic and doesn't insure salvation on the part of the child.

I was raised Quaker, and they don't do baptism at all, so it's hard to accept pedobaptism as proper when I grew up my whole life believing it wasn't necessary for ANYONE!

I guess I gotta take it slow........

I never was one to just jump right into the pool! I had to ease into it, painfully.......LOL
 
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