Why not accept the world as it is?

[Lilly of the Valley]

No, no, no. What I'm saying is, that even w/o religions, there will still be religions, just it will be people worshiping themselves, which happens now even.

 

[KCDAD]

Humans can think for them selves. They have a need to feel that there is something greater than themselves, feel that there is answers out there. Humans need to "find out" everything and there for they made "god" or some spiritual allmighty thing that everyone can have full trust in. It is not hard to come up with "something" that can do "anything".

This is a tough argument to make considering modern society ion which NO ONE thinks for themselves but relies on network news, talk radio or USA Today to tell them what to think. Public opinion polls vary by as much as 30 points from day to day depending upon what Jay Leno or David Letterman talked about the night before...
We, as a species, are not much different from the fanciful description we give to lemmings or the Biblical symbology of sheep... humans think for themselves.... ha! bwahahahaha....

 

[Mortensen]

This is a tough argument to make considering modern society ion which NO ONE thinks for themselves but relies on network news, talk radio or USA Today to tell them what to think. Public opinion polls vary by as much as 30 points from day to day depending upon what Jay Leno or David Letterman talked about the night before...
We, as a species, are not much different from the fanciful description we give to lemmings or the Biblical symbology of sheep... humans think for themselves.... ha! bwahahahaha....

Thats exactly what I am saying. You support my theory one houndred percent. People believe what they are told to believe! Thats why religion is so strong in some countrys and not in others. You can't possibly dissagree after that little speach you just had? The thing is that for several thousand years ago, there were probably some brilliant guy that came up with an idea to ease everyones curiosity and made "God". Then everyone followed him and so it is done today. I look at religion as fancy fashion. You wear what the others wear and the fashion is often changed. Thats why there is tonns of different religions (and mythologies) that die as soon as "something better" comes along. This is why I think it is really hard to believe that this is the actual truth. People believe what they are told to blieve regardless of what personall proof there might be.

 

[elman]

Thats exactly what I am saying. You support my theory one houndred percent. People believe what they are told to believe! Thats why religion is so strong in some countrys and not in others. You can't possibly dissagree after that little speach you just had? The thing is that for several thousand years ago, there were probably some brilliant guy that came up with an idea to ease everyones curiosity and made "God". Then everyone followed him and so it is done today. I look at religion as fancy fashion. You wear what the others wear and the fashion is often changed. Thats why there is tonns of different religions (and mythologies) that die as soon as "something better" comes along. This is why I think it is really hard to believe that this is the actual truth. People believe what they are told to blieve regardless of what personall proof there might be.

You are incorrect. Not all people believe what they are told to believe and in fact most people do not. Everyone I know has changed their theology over their lifetime and that indicates they are not just believing what someone tells them. I don't know if your situation is different. Perhaps you do believe what you do simply because someone told you that was the way things are.

 

[Catholicism]

Sorry if I am a little harsh here, but I as an atheist is wondering why people can't accept the world as it is? Why do humans have a need to feel like there allways is someone greater than us? I take a look at my dinner, a stake with saus and potatoes. I know exactily what it is, who made it and where it came from. I can track down the stake back to its birth. Why not accept things as it is? And about revelution. How is this so hard to accept? Scientists have long ago figured out that the universe is so massive and large and that the criteria for life is so small so it is just probability that some planets have life on them, there is nothing strange about that. And why do something have to have a first beginning? I agree that the universe has a reason, it has to have, but why do that reason have to be god? Why not accept that we dont know the reason? And as an end: How do you explain that God exict in contries where religion stands strong, in conries with low living standard and that people that has a hard time often find confert in God? Isn't it a possibility that man created god, not the oppisite? Man creaded god for his own needs. (Scientists has btw newly found the DNA gene that makes human's needs for something greater than himselves)

Sorry for beeing a little forthcoming I just needed to through my thoughts out for people to see them. Debate me with respekt please

I think your question about why Christians don't accept the world "as it is," presupposes the non-existance of God. I instantly think, "why don't Atheists accept the fact the God does exist." Or since I see God as a fact, "why don't atheists accept the universe as it is, created by God?"

 

[Mortensen]

why don't Atheists accept the fact the God does exist

Because there is no proof that he do exict.

Before you quote this, I have gotten my answer People believe because they have gotten their personal proof in form of miracles etc., right? So athest have no evidence and the believers have so none of them can blaim each other.

You are incorrect. Not all people believe what they are told to believe and in fact most people do not. Everyone I know has changed their theology over their lifetime and that indicates they are not just believing what someone tells them. I don't know if your situation is different. Perhaps you do believe what you do simply because someone told you that was the way things are.

Again: How do you explaint that most of the people in the US are christians? If most of them have changed from one thologogy to another; what have they changed from and to when the result is christianity?

 

[KCDAD]

Thats exactly what I am saying.

The thing is that for several thousand years ago, there were probably some brilliant guy that came up with an idea to ease everyones curiosity and made "God". Then everyone followed him and so it is done today. I look at religion as fancy fashion.

People believe what they are told to blieve regardless of what personall proof there might be.

I agree to the extent that I agree. I do not believe that out of the blue some guy thought "wow, let's invent god". There is much too much cross cultural understanding of deist or theist ideas for this to be mere invention. Yes, Virginia there is a God, just as surely as there is mankind.

AS to our gullibility, I won't deny that. But it goes for the educated as well as the ignorant. It takes real effort to seek out the truth... an effort I have seen displayed more in philosophy, sociology and theology than I have in the "hard" sciences.

 

[Mortensen]

What is the hard time of think out that there is "something" great up there that causes thunder? Hmm... we have to call "it" something, why not "Thor"! Thats an usual name that people would accept. I really don't see why it is so hard to think of something that cannot be discribed in any form, something as simple as a "allmighty beeing"

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

It's hard to think of it because it's a realm higher than our knowlege.

 

[Blackguard_]

Hmm... you are actually right. I set my own trap! If everything have to have a reason (And I kind of believe that) that reason have to be God... :S But then again, what is the reason of God?

I do not believe everything, or at least God, needs a reason.

Ive heard it several times both on the norwegain news and actually on The Lateshow (David letterman).

huh. It doesn't suprise me he'd think that, but I am suprised he would say it out loud. Must have been a slip?

How do you then explain how christianity stands so large there?

A couple possible reasons.

1. A good deal of the people who came here were fleeing persecution in Europe, so would tend to be more religious.

2. We had 3 Great Awakenings, which were large religious revival movements. The last 2 happened while people like Nietsche, Marx and Freud and the early Sociologists/Anthropologists who took it as an article of faith science would replace religion were big in Europe.

3. A plurality of missionary denominations had sort of a "free market" affect, that is, churches have to compete for members and react to threats from other religions. A stagnant church isn't likley to last here. The reverse of this might help explain the stagnation of religion in places with a State-church.

And how do you explain that in Norway we have something called the State-Church where the church is a part of the state and almost every norwegain is a member.

What do you mean "how do I explain" it? This seems like something you should know from Norwegian history classes. All I know is at some point your government decided to make Lutheranism (?) the official religion.

Most children take christian confirmation and the first 7 years of school (including kindergarten) the children have to say prayers and sing a christian song before they eat. The school takes the children to the church quite often to.

SOunds like Norwegians are "told what to believe" much more than the vast majority of Americans. Very few here have an experience like this, and those are in private relgious schools.
So Confirmation is a State requirement over there, or is it just that most kids are put through it?

And are those 7 years or religious education, or is it secular with a Christian song and some church visits tacked on?

I though I was a christian all the time and I though everyone had to be it since they were a member of the State-church (don't know what to call it on english). It was when I was older I realised that I didn't believe in a God and there is almost noone here that does.

Most here would say "official religion", although "State-Church" is a correct term.

This is the experience of many here as well. Lots of people are raised as nominal Christians(many are what we call "Christmas and Easter Christians", i.e. they generally only go to church on those two days) but then realize they don't actually believe.

Science will never be "true" because they will allways find something to disprove what they already know. The science for a houndred years ago is just as inacurate as the science we have today, in a houndred years.

That's not quite what I meant. I meant the Scientific Method as a way to find the truth. All those sceientific theories that are built and rejected are built and rejected based on the Scientific Method which does not change.

The same Scientific Method was used in the outdated thoeries as the modern ones.

I just read that the painful feeling we get after a hard training is not caused by milk-acid (?) as we have thought for so long, it is caused by low level of natrium in the cells. It isn't sertain that this is any more correct than the milk-acid, but I think we are getting closer to the truth.

I have heard that feeling is casued by acid in the blood. I am unsure what "milk-acid" is though. If its the name of the acid I am ignorarant of it.

Anyway, they used the Scientific Method to arrive at both conclusions right? The difference was new data to reconcile with a theory.

Science gives us a better understanding of the world we live in (do religion do that?).

Only if you assume only the material to exist and teh Scientific Method. Science gives great understanding of the physical world sure, but it leaves out a lot.

I don't believe all science, I usaly takes it with a pinch of salt, but without the science, we would still be in the stone age. And I think its just stupid to not believe that f.eks. our body is built up with cells, right?

right, science isn't worthless or something. It is a great tool, I only have a problem with the materialist philosophy that oftnen accompanies it. That is, the notion that what science can investigate is all there is.

Deffine proof?

good question...

So different religions is different views on the same belief? Because I cant see how all mythologies and religions believe in the same :S some of them are like alfa and omega.

I said people seek after the divine (not necessarily the Christian God) and end up in different places, hence wildly different religions. They are not different views of of one God/religion.

So what is the reason to believe in a God? There is truly nothing about this world that gives us any signs that there is a God.

yes there is. The same phenomena you chalk up to Material Science and Probabilty. Of course you will see no evidence of God as a Scientific Materialist, your world-view precludes it.

 

[Mortensen]

What do you mean "how do I explain" it? This seems like something you should know from Norwegian history classes. All I know is at some point your government decided to make Lutheranism (?) the official religion

I just put the question wrong I meant that how do you explain that most people are atheists or agnostics?

SOunds like Norwegians are "told what to believe" much more than the vast majority of Americans. Very few here have an experience like this, and those are in private relgious schools.
So Confirmation is a State requirement over there, or is it just that most kids are put through it?

And are those 7 years or religious education, or is it secular with a Christian song and some church visits tacked on?

Yes, they are told what to believe. The children believe that God and christianity is as real as the planet we live on, no reason the question it. There is religious education, sure but this is about different religion, not how to practise Christianity. I mean that the singing before meals, going to church and learning storyes about Jesus is daily life for a child in Norway. And everybody does not have to get a confirmation, but most people do it (for the money ) and most of them takes a christian confirmation "beacuse everybody else is doing it".

Most here would say "official religion", although "State-Church" is a correct term

The state and church is combined just as the church is a type of gouvernment (don't really know what this practically mean)

I have heard that feeling is casued by acid in the blood. I am unsure what "milk-acid" is though. If its the name of the acid I am ignorarant of it.

Its just us Norwegains way of putting names to things Just translated it directly The whole idea of the production of acid in the muscles when there is not enough oxygen has been disproven. I think it is highly unlikely that this still beeing the truth. Science is getting closer to the truth and when they are so close that they stop sciencing, people can live with the result as the "truth" and their life would work perfectly.

Only if you assume only the material to exist and teh Scientific Method. Science gives great understanding of the physical world sure, but it leaves out a lot.

What?

I said people seek after the divine (not necessarily the Christian God) and end up in different places, hence wildly different religions. They are not different views of of one God/religion.

You believe in a God? If you believe and Im sure you have gotten a personal proof that supports your belief (I know many others that have)? Than if you are so sure about your belief and you still are saying that other religions don't have to believe in the same God, how can the other religions be correct? Unless the proof you got was all in your head? (I only used you as an example Look on it as a person with a really strong belief)

 

[Emmy]

Dear Mortensen, to accept the world as it is, sound to me the same as:" Live, and let live." They are 2 absolutely UNCHRISTIAN, and selfish pieces of advice. Christian men and women, follow the leading of Christ, our Saviour. To love God first, and to love each other, as we love OURSELVES, to treat everybody with love and considerration, as we would like to be treated by everybody. God made us in His image, those DNA genes, you say Scientists have found in us, which prove our searchings for something greater than Self, those genes are further proof, we do belong to God, and are longing to be with Him. Jesus died to reconcile us to God, our Maker, and Jesus will lead us back to Him. To accept the world as it is, would mean mean NO STRIVING for our original home, and accept a fallen world, where selfishness and non-caring are the norm. I say this humbly and kindly, Mortensen, and send greetings. Emmy, sister in Christ.