Why not accept the world as it is?

[Mortensen]

QuoteThe reason could probably be a advanced scientificly one, we dont know yet, but it don't have to be God.


If they found a cause for the universe, they would need to find the casue for the casue, and a casue for that cause ad infinitum right?. Therefore, this debate can never end. If it does, you are then wrong about everything needing a reason.

And it doesn't have to be Science either. We are both assuming we our views are correct. Even if they found a Scientific way for the universe to exist, it wouldn't necessarily mean God wasn't involved.

Hmm... you are actually right. I set my own trap! If everything have to have a reason (And I kind of believe that) that reason have to be God... :S But then again, what is the reason of God?

QuoteIt sais in both the bible and the koran (the islam text) that both religions will spread and there is many Islam leaders saying that Islams purpose is to take over the world, "and it will".

Yes, its foolish to think Islam and Christianity (or any evangelizing religions) can tolerate each other.

Just what I said. I saw an english program that was called "root to all evil" where they visited a jewish leader. They asked him what he thinked of the World Trade Scenter dissaster. He rejected the question and said that if Israel din't exict, the world trade scenter dissaster would have never happened, encouraging to war...

QuoteBush has said loud and clear that he thinks atheists shoud not have premission to stay there.

I've never heard that. maybe he thinks that, but I am not aware of him ever saying it.

Ive heard it several times both on the norwegain news and actually on The Lateshow (David letterman).

QuoteChildren is also raised to believe what they are told so there is really not so many options.


You've never been here have you? Sure, I have no doubt some over here do that, but the vast majority of people's "being told what to believe" is their parents made them go to church when they were 9.

How do you then explain how christianity stands so large there? And how do you explain that in Norway we have something called the State-Church where the church is a part of the state and almost every norwegain is a member. Most children take christian confirmation and the first 7 years of school (including kindergarten) the children have to say prayers and sing a christian song before they eat. The school takes the children to the church quite often to. I though I was a christian all the time and I though everyone had to be it since they were a member of the State-church (don't know what to call it on english). It was when I was older I realised that I didn't believe in a God and there is almost noone here that does.

QuotePeople isn't told to believe anything, so they dont, and there is no reason to either.


So Norway doesn't have an education system?

My guess is Science is the only method of viewing the world most there are exposed to.

Anyway, so why do you believe in Science?

Yea, we have an education system, but it is really bad

Science will never be "true" because they will allways find something to disprove what they already know. The science for a houndred years ago is just as inacurate as the science we have today, in a houndred years. I just read that the painful feeling we get after a hard training is not caused by milk-acid (?) as we have thought for so long, it is caused by low level of natrium in the cells. It isn't sertain that this is any more correct than the milk-acid, but I think we are getting closer to the truth. Science gives us a better understanding of the world we live in (do religion do that?). I don't believe all science, I usaly takes it with a pinch of salt, but without the science, we would still be in the stone age. And I think its just stupid to not believe that f.eks. our body is built up with cells, right?

QuoteMost people are athests to most religions. The lack of proof that there is a God could be a proof that there isn't.


What proof is there that Science is true?

Deffine proof?

QuoteThat God comes on so many different versions makes it even harder to believe. Why don't everyone believe in one religion?


Because people naturally seek the divine and different people can end up finding different things. And being human they can't seek perfectly or even well.

So people seek different things wich is all different ways of one God? So different religions is different views on the same belief? Because I cant see how all mythologies and religions believe in the same :S some of them are like alfa and omega.


So what is the reason to believe in a God? There is truly nothing about this world that gives us any signs that there is a God.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Read what I wrote about religions and conflicts. Faith cannot solve world problems

Well, if going by a christian perspective, God can certainly help greatly.

 

[Mortensen]

Well, if going by a christian perspective, God can certainly help greatly.

How?

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

How?

Well, God can help induce peace, he can allow various leaders to want peace rather than war, He can help prevent war...etc...

 

[TooCurious]

Well, God can help induce peace, he can allow various leaders to want peace rather than war, He can help prevent war...etc...

It does not seem evident that he has done so, which poses the question, "Why not?"

I have often heard from some Christians that God does not interfere in this way with human affairs because he wants people to choose their own actions, and if those actions are "evil," then so be it. If that's the case, then we still don't have an answer to how God can solve world problems, which was the original question.

But I won't assume that this is your answer, so I will await your reply.

 

[Mortensen]

But what is better? A religious leader, evolving own belief that there is no real evidence that matches the world we live in, or an atheistic (or a person that does not evolve faith into the leading) leader which will have a neutral view of religion (or no view at all. Not taking religion and belief into the leading)? Im no expert in this field but I think my examples above on how religion have cause war have to be taken i perspective.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Provide evidence that the majority of wars that have occured are caused solely based on religious factions

 

[BlackPanther]

Looking back at your post in a more generous mood, I would say that it is likely I misread it. Reading it now, I must apologize.

no prob.

It sounds like you're saying that there is a possibility that man created God, but you are pointing out (correctly) that these speculations cannot be ruled out. But just because you are honest and admitting to a possibility, doesn't mean that you think it is a probability.

Is that right?

Sort of...if I understand you correctly.
Pretty much all I was saying, is that the original poster speaks of possibilities...but everything is technically a "possibility".
We cannot be 100% sure about just about anything.

If so, then I must strongly disagree with you about the evidence for God, but I would still agree with how you express yourself and the things you said about evidence. I was reading things into your post which weren't there, and I appreciate the way you courteously responded, allowing me the chance correct myself. Thank you.

I thank you, that we can have civilized disscussion without going at each other's throats.

May I ask, what it is about the evidence that you disagree with? I have heard objections...I feel strongly that they can be answered.

 

[fatpie42]

I take a look at my dinner, a stake with saus and potatoes. I know exactily what it is, who made it and where it came from.

But not how to spell it, it seems....

 

[spdnet75]

I don't practice any particular religion, though when asked, I tend to tell people that Science is my religion.

This doesn't seem to bother most anyone when I explain to them that any self-respecting scientist would tell you that we have no way of proving that God does not exist and subsequently, cannot Rule God out of ANY given equation.

To be curious and to explore and want answers is perfectly human.

We all have something to contribute to things. It is my hope that one day we will all get along and simply address the things that we able to. Who knows, as one, Mankind may be able to answer more of those questions than we might think!

 

[Achichem]

I just like to make clear before hand, my responses are not intended to illustrate my beliefs, but build a common bridge where such a thing could be possible. Right now you yourself admit our explanations seem irrational and childish, and it is that element I would like to challenge first.

I as an atheist is wondering why people can't accept the world as it is? Why do humans have a need to feel like there allways is someone greater than us?

Let me guess, you’re the type of person who sees the universe as having balanced odds. You’re the kind of person who believes if you buy enough lotto tickets you’ll win, but don’t believe there is any other force other than probability involved, one ticket has the same chance as any other. In est you’ve outgrown the gamblers fallacy. That is fair enough…

But, I want you to image something for a moment…image you get up tomorrow, you start opening your mail and get a bill for $322 but have no money, no job or no income; and the next piece of mail is a prosperity check for $400(that you had no idea was coming or expected in any way). You go for your daily walk, and accidentally drop and ruin your Mp3 player and later that day, when going to visit a friend later that day; they tell you they’ve won a new player and want to give you their old one (better than the one you broke). Your up late that night and forget to set the alarm for tomorrows big exam, yet the next day get woken up perfectly on time by a fight happening downstairs with a couple who almost never makes noise. Imagine for a second this type of pattern becomes predominate in your life. (i.e. your a “lucky” person)….Tell me, if you had coincidence after coincidence most of your life, what probability experiment is reasonable going rationally convince you the world works on balanced odds?

You may think by me saying that, that I am suggesting that for some falling victim to the gambler fallacy is inevitable. That if I person was “unlucky” for too long my point would be lost. Even, that I’m not ready to look at the world as it is. But if so, I think your missing the point. Probability is not flawed, it is natural, and logical.

The point is perception’s role. The “real world” your so convince theists don’t see is itself a candy land just the same…Contrary to traditional logic, my seeing the world as flat, makes it flat! My seeing the sky as orange, makes it orange! The question is not “how is that wrong”, the question is “how is that functional”…. get that and no longer is the interaction of everyone realities (i.e. the world) real; no longer is one vision naïve (wrong) and one mature (right). Get that and then we can logicaly talk about why I see what I see.

So what is the reason to believe in a God? There is truly nothing about this world that gives us any signs that there is a God.

“If you see a god, call him god; if you see a planet, call it a planet”

Because I do see a reason to believe in G-d, you see Him and you say he is many things but never “god” but I still call Him G-d.

See, to some I am sure I do not exist, my arm exists, my leg exists…but surly I do not! I am however!

If you find a desserted tribe in the middle of the jungle, I don't think they would believe in Christianity or Islam, but do this make them less incorrect in their belief just because they have a fewer amount of believers?

Don’t be so sure they don’t!

what is the reason of God?

I could give you a thousand…but essential “I AM”

Science gives us a better understanding of the world we live in (do religion do that?).

Yes it very much can

But what is better? A religious leader, evolving own belief that there is no real evidence that matches the world we live in, or an atheistic (or a person that does not evolve faith into the leading) leader which will have a neutral view of religion (or no view at all. Not taking religion and belief into the leading)? Im no expert in this field but I think my examples above on how religion have cause war have to be taken i perspective.

Simplifying it down, a leader, evolving their own beliefs where there is no ‘real’ evidence that matches the ‘world’ we live in is better by a long shot. In time, I would be hopeful you figure out why, and I hope you realize why I purposely removed religious from your description.

"I have a dream..."

 

[Mortensen]

Provide evidence that the majority of wars that have occured are caused solely based on religious factions

I cant. But the examples alone that I came up with is highly unessisarry. Emagine that those conflicts didn't exict? No islam = no terrorism? Agree? Religion is not about war and conflicts (this highly forbidden in every religion) so they shoud NEVER cause it.

But not how to spell it, it seems....

I am underage here... sorry if my english isn't perfect. Im having a hard time just understand what you guys are saying

Let me guess, you’re the type of person who sees the universe as having balanced odds. You’re the kind of person who believes if you buy enough lotto tickets you’ll win, but don’t believe there is any other force other than probability involved, one ticket has the same chance as any other. In est you’ve outgrown the gamblers fallacy. That is fair enough…

But, I want you to image something for a moment…image you get up tomorrow, you start opening your mail and get a bill for $322 but have no money, no job or no income; and the next piece of mail is a prosperity check for $400(that you had no idea was coming or expected in any way). You go for your daily walk, and accidentally drop and ruin your Mp3 player and later that day, when going to visit a friend later that day; they tell you they’ve won a new player and want to give you their old one (better than the one you broke). Your up late that night and forget to set the alarm for tomorrows big exam, yet the next day get woken up perfectly on time by a fight happening downstairs with a couple who almost never makes noise. Imagine for a second this type of pattern becomes predominate in your life. (i.e. your a “lucky” person)….Tell me, if you had coincidence after coincidence most of your life, what probability experiment is reasonable going rationally convince you the world works on balanced odds?

You may think by me saying that, that I am suggesting that for some falling victim to the gambler fallacy is inevitable. That if I person was “unlucky” for too long my point would be lost. Even, that I’m not ready to look at the world as it is. But if so, I think your missing the point. Probability is not flawed, it is natural, and logical.

The point is perception’s role. The “real world” your so convince theists don’t see is itself a candy land just the same…Contrary to traditional logic, my seeing the world as flat, makes it flat! My seeing the sky as orange, makes it orange! The question is not “how is that wrong”, the question is “how is that functional”…. get that and no longer is the interaction of everyone realities (i.e. the world) real; no longer is one vision naïve (wrong) and one mature (right). Get that and then we can logicaly talk about why I see what I see.

I agree. This is a reason to believe that there is something more between heaven and earth, but how do you explain that this only happens to most (?) of the people living in america and not in Norway? That this occur in countries with a more poor way of living? Is the USA a better country than other Atheist countries since people have faith there and not in the other countries? Because we don't choose where we are born and we don't choose our faith (you believe what you neighbour believe) so you can hardly say that this is the people fault, it rather have to be an act from God.

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Science gives us a better understanding of the world we live in (do religion do that?).





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Yes it very much can

How would the world look like if we didn't have science? When was the bible last updated with a better understanding of the world around us? We would have still been in the stone age. And how would the world look like if we didn't have religion? How do religion support science of getting a better understanding of the world?

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But what is better? A religious leader, evolving own belief that there is no real evidence that matches the world we live in, or an atheistic (or a person that does not evolve faith into the leading) leader which will have a neutral view of religion (or no view at all. Not taking religion and belief into the leading)? Im no expert in this field but I think my examples above on how religion have cause war have to be taken i perspective.






Simplifying it down, a leader, evolving their own beliefs where there is no ‘real’ evidence that matches the ‘world’ we live in is better by a long shot. In time, I would be hopeful you figure out why, and I hope you realize why I purposely removed religious from your description.

Im just going to take some other examples. A christian leader would not tolerate homosexuality. Why is homosexuality a sinn? It is how God made them and they don't choose weather or not they are homosexual. And I highly doubt that anyone would choose to be it. Since the homosexuals have no way to change, they are doomed to be expelled from christian societies.

Another example is that some religions (cathlocs?) are against the use of condoms. Down in Africa where AIDS is killing more than ever, the religion is against the use of condoms, killing even more.

Was it you that changed med to be an atheist? Im sorry for this I didn't know that there were a section for everyone so I though I had to be a christian to post

 

[EnCom]

The world is much older than 6000 years.

I laugh at people who are thinking "om my god, science is so evil". Religion is just another thing to explain the world without doing any research. How many did believe that the earth was flat ?

"Religion without science is lame, science without religion is blame".

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

I cant. But the examples alone that I came up with is highly unessisarry. Emagine that those conflicts didn't exict? No islam = no terrorism? Agree? Religion is not about war and conflicts (this highly forbidden in every religion) so they shoud NEVER cause it.

Yes, thus blaming them as the cause of conflics is inaccurate and saying that having no religions or faiths would stop or greatly decrease world issues is false especially with no proof to begin with.

 

[Achichem]

how do you explain that this only happens to most (?) of the people living in america and not in Norway?

I don’t know why the average Norwegian’s experience reflects atheism or why the average NA’s experience is religious. The fact of the matter however is it just doesn’t matter why, because it can be shown that Norway’s new found atheistic ideals have little to do with why you’re the UN top place to live in the world or much else for that matter. That fact is that is why we have the to views, yet both remain logical.

How would the world look like if we didn't have science?

The process I equate with science is such a significant part of human history, that in my opinion we wouldn’t exist if we did not organize our reasoning ability into science.

When was the bible last updated with a better understanding of the world around us?

Elders can show us all about the world without being at our same technical or scientific level. To be smart you don’t have to be right, only have knowledge; the bible can help make the world a lot more function, and in doing so give us a better understanding of the world around us. Yes I agree it does this well its writer knew far less about the world then us, but so what? Many traditional scientific theories help people understand the world better, yet their writers also knew less then us(and their theories considered technically wrong).

And how would the world look like if we didn't have religion?

And philosophy, pantheistic ideals, and spirituality to?

If not similar to it is now, but with man further from G-d. (philosophy replaces religion)

If yes, gone a long time ago!

How do religion support science of getting a better understanding of the world?

Science helps model the earth most accurately…. religion help show a person how to function in that model, how to thrive, both are necessary to understand the world. Can you replace religion with philosophy, sure…but I would argue religion is the next step after philosophy, I would argue you’d be doing what happen to science in the dark ages, stuting it to your own detriment.

A christian leader would not tolerate homosexuality.

Says you, many Christian leaders and individuals would be more than willing to allow homosexual the same sexual rights as heterosexuals. Not every Christian wants to see government and church to be one and the same.

Why is homosexuality a sinn? It is how God made them and they don't choose weather or not they are homosexual.

I don’t know I’ve never understood the homosexual mindset but I really think it more a political issue than anything else, moralist will always want certain groups suppressed, whether it is for G-d’s will, tradition or rumors. Not all religious people are moralists however, and a large many view the instructions of G-d as an issue between themselves and G-d.

My argument is not to try and justify those who in the name of christen morals prohibit drugs and alcohol, ban homosexuality, ban prostitution, prohibit legal abortion, or force a Sunday Sabbath. My argument is that “evolving ones own belief that there is no real evidence that matches the world we live in” is leadership and had by great theist and atheist alike. Leadership begins with a dream, and a dream is not the world as it is, but the world as it can be…you said is it better to have a leader that is “a person that does not evolve faith into the leading” and that my friend is not a leader that is a politician. That to me is a horrible person to have at the head, and if you look those are the individual that destroy countries. Those are the people which stagnate the culture.

A good leader lead from faith! He has a religion or philosophy, and he is honest and clear in his intent.(I usppose it could be a she to )

Your real problem is with moralist not religion, and sadly they exist as atheist just as well. Moralist believe they need to make laws and ban in order to stop crimes. Their dream that is not based on evidence or reality is what gives them power, it what makes them seem strong. The difference between them and great dreamer however, is not the dream but the method. A great leader still dreams of less criminals, but instead of more laws they give less laws, and with that less crimes exist and their dream does become reality. That is not to say they do not create laws, but I think does show that it has nothing to do with the dream, but the person.

Down in Africa where AIDS is killing more than ever, the religion is against the use of condoms, killing even more.

Liberals would love to blame the church, but go to Africa and you’ll quickly learn the real problem. First too many Africans don’t know what causes aids; they think condoms cause it, they think they get it by being kicked in the side, or a bug biting you when you sleep. Young girls are being raped (not necessarily in the conventional sense of the term) and young boys given responsibility many don’t have the maturity to handle. The problem is social! Sure the church could distribute condoms or “allow them” but we have to face facts, if people were really listening to the church so dogmatically this wouldn’t be a problem. It may help some but without treating the cause, it anyone’s guess to it real impact. There is no connection between catholic societies and aids and just because one agency doesn’t see your solution of “condoms” as viable doesn’t mean their wrong…they raise their resource, let them help in their way.

Was it you that changed med to be an atheist? Im sorry for this I didn't know that there were a section for everyone so I though I had to be a christian to post

I don’t get what you mean, but I am glad you did get everything clear up….I’m responding to your thread because I like your questions

 

[Mortensen]

I don’t know why the average Norwegian’s experience reflects atheism or why the average NA’s experience is religious. The fact of the matter however is it just doesn’t matter why, because it can be shown that Norway’s new found atheistic ideals have little to do with why you’re the UN top place to live in the world or much else for that matter. That fact is that is why we have the to views, yet both remain logical.

If there is a God, there shoud be just as many "miracles" in the US as in Norway, if it isn't, I look at this as a different treatment from God (and that isn't good ). The reason the people in the US see these miracles and not in Norway is either that they don't exict (that the faith makes them see things that isn't there) or that people in Norway can't see them. And why wouldnt them see them?

Yes, thus blaming them as the cause of conflics is inaccurate and saying that having no religions or faiths would stop or greatly decrease world issues is false especially with no proof to begin with.

Them what causes terrorism? I thought is was all knowledge that terrorism is founded on Islam.


And I just wonder, why is homosexuality a sinn? I don't think you answered...

 

[KCDAD]

It seems there is a gene for everything that we want to find... God, homosexuality, obesity, anger, depression...

If man did create god, where would he possibly have gotten the idea? From a leaf? How about a snake? From rain? How could any of those things created this concept of infinite, universal God?

 

[Mortensen]

Humans can think for them selves. They have a need to feel that there is something greater than themselves, feel that there is answers out there. Humans need to "find out" everything and there for they made "god" or some spiritual allmighty thing that everyone can have full trust in. It is not hard to come up with "something" that can do "anything".

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Well, by going by the idea that there is no god, people in essence are making themself a god, thinking they can control their own life and that they can find all the answers. They hope in themselves. Thus it is a religion of themselves and to themselves.

 

[Mortensen]

Well, by going by the idea that there is no god, people in essence are making themself a god, thinking they can control their own life and that they can find all the answers. They hope in themselves. Thus it is a religion of themselves and to themselves.

So you agree that it is possibility that God is only in peoples minds?