Why must Jesus be God?

[leftrightleftrightleft]

For the record, I think you're confusing me with someone else. I didn't say any of those things and would never recommend any of Lee Strobel's books.

Sorry, fixed the mistake.

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

To use that to rate the books' importance contradicts Christian canonicty. The bible's parts are assumed to be all equally important regardless when they were written.

This isn't about me bowing my head and following along with the traditional Christian canonicity. I don't want to assume that they are all equally important regardless when they were written. To base my faith and my truth on an assumption seems awfully precarious, doesn't it?

The full text as a whole is God's inspiration and thus should not be ranked for importance.

Tell a non-Christian that and I'm guessing that will be a topic that is up for debate.

Because if Jesus is God, believing otherwise is to take away some of His glory which is a big part of anti Christ activities.

Indeed, to say he is not God would be to strip down Christian doctrine to the core.

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

if you can't tie jn 1:1 and jn 17:5 together along with the other verses i had in my post, then i don't know what else to tell you.

"By starting out his gospel stating, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God,” John is introducing Jesus with a word or a term that both his Jewish and Gentile readers would have been familiar with. The Greek word translated “Word” in this passage is Logos, and it was common in both Greek philosophy and Jewish thought of that day. For example, in the Old Testament the “word” of God is often personified as an instrument for the execution of God’s will (Psalm 33:6; 107:20; 119:89; 147:15-18). So, for his Jewish readers, by introducing Jesus as the “Word,” John is in a sense pointing them back to the Old Testament where the Logos or “Word” of God is associated with the personification of God’s revelation." (Taken from www.gotquestions.org...one of the websites that was suggested in this very thread)

So, the Word is "personified" as an "instrument" for the execution of God's "will". Personification is a poetic term which is not to be taken literally, being an instrumen of God or God's will is not the same as being God himself. Saying Jesus = The Word does not say anything about Jesus being God Incarnate.

John 17:5 is compelling, although it comes when Jesus is praying to God. If Jesus was God, why would he pray to himself?

you see, i read all of that and believe that Christ was the God of the old testament.

Okay, but if this is the Truth of the World then you must have sufficient reason to believe it. If only these Bible verses are your reasons and they are not compelling enough to convince me, then how is it the Truth of the World?

 

[r035198x]

This isn't about me bowing my head and following along with the traditional Christian canonicity. I don't want to assume that they are all equally important regardless when they were written. To base my faith and my truth on an assumption seems awfully precarious, doesn't it?
...
Tell a non-Christian that and I'm guessing that will be a topic that is up for debate...

See now how it simplifies the argument. Now there's lots of posts here that no longer make sense because people didn't know that full canonicity was not being assumed. Now you would have state what's allowed in the argument.
Interesting though that is seems that you believe that if full canonicity is assumed then Jesus is indeed God?

Indeed, to say he is not God would be to strip down Christian doctrine to the core.

So there's the answer to why He must be God to Christians?

 

[Sketcher]

Daniel 7:14 doesn't actually describe the Son of Man as divine at all. It says he was given authority and sovereign power. Why would God need to give himself authority and sovereign power if he already has it?

It does describe him as divine, because:

People of every language worship him.

His kingdom is one that will never be destroyed or fade with time.

So he must be divine, or else God is setting up a massive idol, which would be an affront to his holiness. Christians do not believe God would do that. Since there is only one God, this Son of Man must be a Person of the Trinity.

 

[Duckybill]

Now, if Jesus is not God,

But He is the "Mighty God".

Isaiah 9:6 (NKJV)
6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

 

[razeontherock]

Why do you choose to believe something that is paradoxical and logically inconsistent?

Nothing else you've ever experienced would make sense with this kind of logic. After all you're purporting that adding one apple and one orange gives you one orange.

This was in response to the statement that Jesus is fully G-d and fully man, and your response frankly doesn't make sense. If you can't re-phrase it to follow the analogy better than that, then you just don't know what analogy is.

To understand the significance of the fully human part, try tackling the story of David and Goliath. Why were these 2 pitted against each other in the first place? I mean, their Nations were at war. Why a 1 on 1 duel to the death?

Efficiency. The champion of each, a representative, faces each other. The logic is if your's beats mine then all of mine would die in battle or run away to be subdued anyway, so we might as well surrender and live, only having subjected one life to battle. Likewise, when it comes to battling G-d's Judgment, Jesus' humanity is worth more than every one of us combined, due to the fact He was sinless and all of our righteousness combined can never attain that.

So we see Him being able to open the scrolls, able to endure G-d's Presence, able to take the keys of death and of hell, able to Judge everyone. These all relate to our humanity.

We also see Him walking on water, controlling storms, healing the sick, raising the dead; these all relate to His Divinity.

If both aspects don't meet in one Person - we got nuttin'.

So our Judge is also our Defense Attorney It's rigged I tell ya, and satan loses.

You need to realize this is not primarily about you or i, nor our Salvation. It's about the Glory of G-d.

 

[salida]

I like that razeontherock-

So our Judge is also our Defense Attorney- It's rigged I tell ya, and satan loses.

Amen!!

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

See now how it simplifies the argument. Now there's lots of posts here that no longer make sense because people didn't know that full canonicity was not being assumed. Now you would have state what's allowed in the argument.
Interesting though that is seems that you believe that if full canonicity is assumed then Jesus is indeed God?

Even if full canonicity is assumed, it is always possible to interpret the verses to make Jesus not be God. That's my point. Its all interpretation. All the posts above by me are me re-interpreting verses that so-called "proove" Jesus' divinity by stating another way they could be interpreted to not make this the truth.

The claim that the Bible is true is a slippery slope because it all comes down to interpretation and translation.

So there's the answer to why He must be God to Christians?

One of the major tenets of Christian doctrine is that he is God. What I do not understand is why he must be God. If you don't believe Jesus is God in the modern day, you are most certainly not a Christian, but this has not always been so. In early Christian history there was a big debate whether he was God or not (because Jews in 1st century Palestine did not believe the Messiah would be God). It was settled at a series of synods in the first few centuries before the Councils of Nicea in 325. By vote. Votes determined the history of Christianity and how we interpret the Bible.

 

[r035198x]

Even if full canonicity is assumed, it is always possible to interpret the verses to make Jesus not be God. ..

How does one interpret Jesus saying "I and the Father are one" and not see that He is God?

... In early Christian history there was a big debate whether he was God or not (because Jews in 1st century Palestine did not believe the Messiah would be God). It was settled at a series of synods in the first few centuries before the Councils of Nicea in 325. By vote. Votes determined the history of Christianity and how we interpret the Bible.

Actually there are a few individuals who started to dispute the widely accepted view that He was God and the council was formed to state an official position. The very first council meeting settled this and it was not debated. The subsequent (less widely accepted) ones tackled other issues.
To say votes alone decided it is not only to be uninformed, but to be degrading to present day Christians by assuming that they are dumb enough to accept decisions made by other people years ago without testing them. Even if the initial decision was to have been decided by votes, politics shows clearly that voted decisions are easily erasable if the voters are no longer satisfied with their choice.

 

[ebia]

I have a simple question: Why must Jesus be God?

I don't understand the reasoning behind it.
According to Jews, the Messiah will not be God, he will be a man.

Jesus overturned a whole load of assumptions about what God's final vindication would look like, how the messanic figure would fit into that, etc.

It is a general consensus among Bible historians that Matthew, Mark and Luke were written earlier than John and closer to his death. None of these three books directly refer to Jesus as God.

Mark (the earliest) is explicitly written in such a way as for the reader/listener to have to do what the disciples did - keep answering the question "who do you say I am" for yourself. Luke doesn't explicitly say "Jesus is God", but he has Jesus pictured frequently in places in the story where YHWH should be.

Perhaps more to the point, the earliest Christian texts - Paul's letters - over and over take strongly monotheistic passages from the Old Testament and rework them with (Lord) Jesus in the place of YHWH. Remembering that "Lord" is the word that the LXX greek translation from which the N.T. writers worked has where the original Hebrew has YWHW helps see a whole load of comments about The Lord in a new light.

There are also verses that support that he is not God:

http://servetustheevangelical.com/doc/Jesus_Is_Not_God_Bible_Verses.pdf

And most of these verses come from the books written nearer to Jesus' actual life. The farther the book gets from Jesus' life, the more divine he becomes.

That's simply not true - Paul is the closest and among the most frequent referrer to Jesus' divinity. The writer of your article has completely missed how to read a mass of Pauline passages (including many of those he quotes). He also assumes that which he is trying to prove - that "God the Father" excludes the possibility of Jesus being divine - his reasoning is circular.

Now, if Jesus is not God, that does not mean that:

A) he is not the Messiah

Not necessarly.

B) he is not worthy of us following him because his message is still one of peace, acceptance and love

His message is not and never was one of "one of peace, acceptance and love" in the sense I think you mean. His message was "In me God is putting the world to rights starting right now - do you want to be part of that or not?"

 

[JohnRabbit]

"By starting out his gospel stating, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God,” John is introducing Jesus with a word or a term that both his Jewish and Gentile readers would have been familiar with. The Greek word translated “Word” in this passage is Logos, and it was common in both Greek philosophy and Jewish thought of that day. For example, in the Old Testament the “word” of God is often personified as an instrument for the execution of God’s will (Psalm 33:6; 107:20; 119:89; 147:15-18). So, for his Jewish readers, by introducing Jesus as the “Word,” John is in a sense pointing them back to the Old Testament where the Logos or “Word” of God is associated with the personification of God’s revelation." (Taken from www.gotquestions.org...one of the websites that was suggested in this very thread)

So, the Word is "personified" as an "instrument" for the execution of God's "will". Personification is a poetic term which is not to be taken literally, being an instrumen of God or God's will is not the same as being God himself. Saying Jesus = The Word does not say anything about Jesus being God Incarnate.

John 17:5 is compelling, although it comes when Jesus is praying to God. If Jesus was God, why would he pray to himself?



Okay, but if this is the Truth of the World then you must have sufficient reason to believe it. If only these Bible verses are your reasons and they are not compelling enough to convince me, then how is it the Truth of the World?

John 17:5 ( NKJV ) 5And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

'glorify Me together with Yourself' and 'the glory which I had with You'

you read this verse and you think that Jesus was praying to Himself?

amazing!

if the verses in the bible aren't enough to convince you, then maybe you need to pray to God so you can have a better understanding of the nature of God!

 

[razeontherock]

Yeah, this one plus the pre-incarnate Word being made flesh are pretty clear. Another angle is that Christ is both the Wisdom and the power of G-d. We see that wisdom existed before physical creation, so ...

Yeah, He was there. The "Son" of the Trinity is that which actually made everything. No, not Jesus' hands as a carpenter, but again the pre-incarnate Christ. It certainly gives more depth to His humility, carrying His own cross, as the rough hewn timber and splinters dug into his flesh that had been ripped open via scourging.

And in all cases the Son was obedient to the Father's will.

 

[Christos Anesti]

God took on human nature so that we could put on the Divine Nature. He united humanity to divinity. If Christ wasn't God then we would still be alienated from God with no way to become divine. There would still be an unbridgeable gap between God and man. In Christ God and creation became mingled.

 

[ProScribe]

Why must Jesus be God?

Because it says so in the Gospels of St. John the Theologian.

 

[Ignatius the Hermit]

God took on human nature so that we could put on the Divine Nature. He united humanity to divinity. If Christ wasn't God then we would still be alienated from God with no way to become divine. There would still be an unbridgeable gap between God and man. In Christ God and creation became mingled.

You're speaking of Theosis, right? Could you please explain to me what the Orthodox view is of being made divine?

 

[Ignatius the Hermit]

Even if full canonicity is assumed, it is always possible to interpret the verses to make Jesus not be God. That's my point. Its all interpretation. All the posts above by me are me re-interpreting verses that so-called "proove" Jesus' divinity by stating another way they could be interpreted to not make this the truth.

The claim that the Bible is true is a slippery slope because it all comes down to interpretation and translation.




One of the major tenets of Christian doctrine is that he is God. What I do not understand is why he must be God. If you don't believe Jesus is God in the modern day, you are most certainly not a Christian, but this has not always been so. In early Christian history there was a big debate whether he was God or not (because Jews in 1st century Palestine did not believe the Messiah would be God). It was settled at a series of synods in the first few centuries before the Councils of Nicea in 325. By vote. Votes determined the history of Christianity and how we interpret the Bible.

I see your point and agree with you. Indeed, it is not certain if the CHristian Churches endorsed the idea that Jesus was God incarnate...at first. Obviously, by the fourth century, the doctrine of the Trinity became dogma and even then, it was a struggle because Arianism refuted such an idea. Below are some verses that I have posted elsewhere which seem to contradict the idea that Jesus is God.

According to the scriptures, there can only be one God:

“And Jesus answered him, The first of all commandments is, hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord.” (Mark 12:29)
“Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.’ (John 17:3)
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.” (James 2:19)
“The Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28)
“I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ (John 20:17)
“I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God…which comes down from heaven from my God, and I will also write upon him my name’ (Rev. 3:12)
“Behold, I see the son of man standing on the right hand of God.” (Acts 7:56)
1 Corinthians 15:12-34 (I didn’t feel like typing it all out)


Jesus
Prays to God (John 17:1-3)
Has faith in God (Hebrews 2:17-18)
Is a servant of God (Acts 3:13)
Does not know things that God knows (Mark 13:32, Revelation 1:1)
Worships God (John 14:22)
Is in subjection to God (1 Cor. 15:28)
Is given authority by God (Phil. 2:9)

“God raised Jesus from the dead.” (Acts 2:24, Romans 10:9, 1 Cor 15:15)
‘For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.’ (1 Tim 2:5)
And of course the most chilling words in scripture: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46)

It seems to me that these verses do not agree with the Nicene creed, and clearly show that Jesus is not co-equal, co-eternal and co-God with God. This is precisely why I wanted to know what did the Council of Nicea accomplish, and did Arius’s claims have merit?

 

[Maranatha27]

I have a simple question: Why must Jesus be God?

I don't understand the reasoning behind it.
According to Jews, the Messiah will not be God, he will be a man.

It is a general consensus among Bible historians that Matthew, Mark and Luke were written earlier than John and closer to his death. None of these three books directly refer to Jesus as God. There are also verses that support that he is not God:

http://servetustheevangelical.com/doc/Jesus_Is_Not_God_Bible_Verses.pdf

And most of these verses come from the books written nearer to Jesus' actual life. The farther the book gets from Jesus' life, the more divine he becomes.

Now, if Jesus is not God, that does not mean that:

A) he is not the Messiah
B) he is not worthy of us following him because his message is still one of peace, acceptance and love
C) he was not wise or spiritually beyond us

All it means is that he is not God Incarnate. And what does that even mean anyway?

Why is it necessary to believe that Jesus is God?

Hello, According to the Jewish Prophets the Messiah of Israel was certiantly to be God. Not to be harsh but this question only rises because of ignorance of the scripture. So just passing by I give you some scripture to help you see more clearly.

Isaiah 9 [6] For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
[7] Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Psalms 110:[1] The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Matt 22: [41] While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
[42] Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
[43] He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
[44] The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
[45] If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
[46] And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

There are a multitude of more examples, but Im lazy...I cant search, if you can talk your way around those 2 then I'll dig for you friend

 

[jacks]

I see your point and agree with you. Indeed, it is not certain if the CHristian Churches endorsed the idea that Jesus was God incarnate...at first. Obviously, by the fourth century, the doctrine of the Trinity became dogma and even then, it was a struggle because Arianism refuted such an idea. Below are some verses that I have posted elsewhere which seem to contradict the idea that Jesus is God.

According to the scriptures, there can only be one God:

“And Jesus answered him, The first of all commandments is, hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord.” (Mark 12:29)
“Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.’ (John 17:3)
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.” (James 2:19)
“The Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28)
“I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ (John 20:17)
“I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God…which comes down from heaven from my God, and I will also write upon him my name’ (Rev. 3:12)
“Behold, I see the son of man standing on the right hand of God.” (Acts 7:56)
1 Corinthians 15:12-34 (I didn’t feel like typing it all out)


Jesus
Prays to God (John 17:1-3)
Has faith in God (Hebrews 2:17-18)
Is a servant of God (Acts 3:13)
Does not know things that God knows (Mark 13:32, Revelation 1:1)
Worships God (John 14:22)
Is in subjection to God (1 Cor. 15:28)
Is given authority by God (Phil. 2:9)

“God raised Jesus from the dead.” (Acts 2:24, Romans 10:9, 1 Cor 15:15)
‘For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.’ (1 Tim 2:5)
And of course the most chilling words in scripture: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46)

It seems to me that these verses do not agree with the Nicene creed, and clearly show that Jesus is not co-equal, co-eternal and co-God with God. This is precisely why I wanted to know what did the Council of Nicea accomplish, and did Arius’s claims have merit?

Interesting post and references. I wonder if you (or others) feel it diminishes the importance of Jesus to make him subordinate to the Father? I believe this was the main (stated) reason that Arius's views were overruled.
Is Jesus as the Messiah, (Christ, Son of God, Chosen One, Savior, etc.) not enough to make him our Lord and gateway to salvation?

 

[AMR]

See:

Why Christ Had to Die - Christian Forums

AMR