Why Mormons aren't christians.

[SwordOfGod]

It has often been said that Mormons are Christians because they follow Christ, in this I must disagree. Mormons often say that they believe that Christ is the way to salvation, and therefore they are christian. Yet, if I might humbly ask, who is the saviour that they give their faith to? According to the scriptures of the Mormon Church, Jesus is not the One and Only, but one god among many, these being the Father, many Sons, including Lucifer and Jesus Christ. The idea of One Triune God is clearly not held by the Book of Mormon, but is very clearly held by the biblical Old and New Testaments. I give as evidence...
Old Testament (NIV)
DEUTERONOMY 6:4 Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one.

DEUTERONOMY 32: 39 See now that I myself am He! There is no god besides me.

Isaiah 44: 6 This is what the Lord says, Israel's King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

Isaiah 45: 5 I am the Lord, there is no other; apart from me there is no God.
New Testament
Mark 12: 29 Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One.

Now that the Word has established that there is indeed one God, is there any evidence that there is a trinity, and more importantly that Jesus is apart of that trinity?(KJV)

18) JOHN 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, {even} the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me

JOHN 17:21-23 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, {art} in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. (22) And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: (23) I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

MATTHEW 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

The reason I have written is not to hurt anyone and not to judge others. I write because I worry that so many are taking a path that will lead to a place that they do not wish to go. The Bible speaks for itself and I ask if anyone who can hear its voice truly believe that the Church of the Latter Day Saints holds the path to Salvation?

 

[Q2004]

So they're not your idea of Christian. So what?

 

[peepnklown]

Actually, if you want to be technical, the trinity is foreign to the Torah/Tanakh. Thus, according to Judaism (supported by the Torah/Tanakh) Christianity believes in multiple Gods.

 

[ander_cool]

Christian trinity concept comes from Hinduism trinity while they were mixing Krishna's life history with Christ's and some Vecic verses with Bible.

 

[SwordOfGod]

First of all I am talking about Christ's ideas about Christianity not mine, second of all I am talking about Christianity not Judaism. Third of all ancient Judaism (I won't bother with modern) believed in one god as I showed above(old testament stuff), and believe that there was a pluralty(is that a word?) about Him. They had to, just look at Genesis 1: 26. And fourthly, while it is true that we do not have the original manuscripts for the books of the Bible, we do have second and third copies. Such a close dating pretty much would elaminate the chance of someone going in and changing the scriptures(perhaps trying to unite the two religions?) which clearly state the doctrine of the trinity is as I have stated above. If one truly believes that the bible is the infallible word of God ten one must except this.

 

[DjDan]

It has often been said that Mormons are Christians because they follow Christ, in this I must disagree. Mormons often say that they believe that Christ is the way to salvation, and therefore they are christian. Yet, if I might humbly ask, who is the saviour that they give their faith to? According to the book of Mormon, Jesus is not the One and Only, but one god among many, these being the Father, many Sons, including Lucifer and Jesus Christ. The idea of One Triune God is clearly not held by the Book of Mormon, but is very clearly held by the biblical Old and New Testaments. I give as evidence...
Old Testament (NIV)
DEUTERONOMY 6:4 Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one.

DEUTERONOMY 32: 39 See now that I myself am He! There is no god besides me.

Isaiah 44: 6 This is what the Lord says, Israel's King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

How is it that you can quote these scriptures about there being one God... and then not be able to give a good enough explanation of whatthat actually means. Christianity cannot explain the Trinity... yet they believe it out of fear.

Who is speaking in these verses?

God the father
God the son
God the Holy Spirit

?????

Which one is the true God? Trinity is so confusing.

 

[DjDan]

First of all I am talking about Christ's ideas about Christianity not mine, second of all I am talking about Christianity not Judaism.

tell me then.... what is Christs idea about "Christianity"??? what were his comments about the definition "Christian"?

If one truly believes that the bible is the infallible word of God then one must except this.

If not... he will go to hell??

You christians teach out of fear.

 

[SwordOfGod]

Christs ideas about Christianity come from absolutely any page from the bible, he is the spoken Word of God and the bible is the written word of God. When God is speaking in the Bible, it is simply excepted as God. When the verses were written the Holy Spirit inspired the Author to write the verse, the One who was speaking was the Word or physical expression and part of God, and finally the Father allowed them to speak and write the words. The Trinity is One God and each part is separate and one. Please understand that God is very much like time, There are past, present and future, yet they is only time. In that same way The Father, Son and Holy Spirit can think separatly, work seperatly, even be in two different places, while still being one God.

 

[DjDan]

Christs ideas about Christianity come from absolutely any page from the bible, he is the spoken Word of God and the bible is the written word of God. When God is speaking in the Bible, it is simply excepted as God. When the verses were written the Holy Spirit inspired the Author to write the verse, the One who was speaking was the Word or physical expression and part of God, and finally the Father allowed them to speak and write the words. The Trinity is One God and each part is separate and one. Please understand that God is very much like time, There are past, present and future, yet they is only time. In that same way The Father, Son and Holy Spirit can think separatly, work seperatly, even be in two different places, while still being one God.

So anyway... why don't you go ahead and answer my question:

what is Christs idea about Christianity?
what were his comments about the definition "christian"?

 

[urnotme]

Christian trinity concept comes from Hinduism trinity while they were mixing Krishna's life history with Christ's and some Vecic verses with Bible.

And the hindu trinity probably came from the wiccan trinity of mother, maiden and crone.. The origenal trinity was all female..

 

[Eldy]

It has often been said that Mormons are Christians because they follow Christ, in this I must disagree. Mormons often say that they believe that Christ is the way to salvation, and therefore they are christian. Yet, if I might humbly ask, who is the saviour that they give their faith to? According to the book of Mormon, Jesus is not the One and Only, but one god among many, these being the Father, many Sons, including Lucifer and Jesus Christ. The idea of One Triune God is clearly not held by the Book of Mormon, but is very clearly held by the biblical Old and New Testaments. I give as evidence...
Old Testament (NIV)
DEUTERONOMY 6:4 Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one.

DEUTERONOMY 32: 39 See now that I myself am He! There is no god besides me.

Isaiah 44: 6 This is what the Lord says, Israel's King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

Isaiah 45: 5 I am the Lord, there is no other; apart from me there is no God.
New Testament
Mark 12: 29 Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One.

Now that the Word has established that there is indeed one God, is there any evidence that there is a trinity, and more importantly that Jesus is apart of that trinity?(KJV)

18) JOHN 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, {even} the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me

JOHN 17:21-23 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, {art} in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. (22) And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: (23) I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

MATTHEW 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

The reason I have written is not to hurt anyone and not to judge others. I write because I worry that so many are taking a path that will lead to a place that they do not wish to go. The Bible speaks for itself and I ask if anyone who can hear its voice truly believe that the Church of the Latter Day Saints holds the path to Salvation?

All I seem to remember Jesus saying was that we needed to believe in Him. There was no stipulation on believing in the trinity or any other doctrine. Just put faith in Christ.

Everything else just muddies up the water and makes it so much more difficult for us humans.

 

[Cassiopeia]

There has been no explanation that I have ever read to support the God being all three persons but only one being. To take it from one perspective, Jesus being baptised by immersion by John the Baptist, hears a voice from heaven, saying, this is my Beloved Son in whom I am well pleased and then sees the Holy Ghost descending as a dove.

Now let us be rational here. This tidbit, lends one to think the possible following,

1. Jesus heard voices and saw figments of his imagination.

or

2. Something is missing from the scriptures to explain this situation.

One can conclude that God the Father and Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost reside in different forms or bodies. Or one can continue to believe that God is mysterious and we have no ability to understand him.

Take your flavour. It really doesn't change if someone is a christian or not. What defines a Christian is one who follows after and believes in Jesus teachings.

Now as someone who left the LDS faith some years back, I participated from 18-43, Mormons most fervently DO believe in Jesus. There is nothing that they don't do that isn't done in his name. Children are blessed (christened) in his name. People are baptised in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Sacraments are blessed and taken in his name. Prayers are always concluded in Jesus name. I could go on but you get the idea.

Just because there are those who would lie about Mormons for their own personal agenda doesn't mean they aren't Christian. If we are to start ruling out who is or isn't Christian based on what other people think then I vote no one be allowed to carry the banner of christian because in my experience, no one is perfect at following what Jesus taught.

 

[Eldy]

Just because there are those who would lie about Mormons for their own personal agenda doesn't mean they aren't Christian. If we are to start ruling out who is or isn't Christian based on what other people think then I vote no one be allowed to carry the banner of christian because in my experience, no one is perfect at following what Jesus taught.

AND !!!

As someone who spent many years after leaving the LDS church as someone who fought with all fervency against it thinking they were all heading to eternal flames, I am so relieved to just live among them, disagree with some of the teachings to myself and see the goodness that is present. Such a better way to live and not so much indigestion.

When the day comes that Jesus comes to me to find out who is and isn't a Christian, then I guess I will concern myself with it.

I just think that Christ has such a better understanding of our HEARTS and that is what He is concerned with. If it depended on us getting every little doctrinal issue right, I don't think any of us would be Christians. Luckily it just depends on a little faith in Him.

 

[msindiausa]

Christian trinity concept comes from Hinduism trinity while they were mixing Krishna's life history with Christ's and some Vecic verses with Bible.

 

[peaceful soul]

All I seem to remember Jesus saying was that we needed to believe in Him. There was no stipulation on believing in the trinity or any other doctrine. Just put faith in Christ.

Everything else just muddies up the water and makes it so much more difficult for us humans.

He also said that to know Him is to know the Father. We are to believe in Him because He is our door to the Father and the Spirit. Without Christ, we have nothing. Christ did not mean that the Father and the Spirit had not part in out salvation. Christ is the main figure in our salvation because He is our propitiation and expiation.

The simple fact is that when we address Christ, we are also addressing the Father and the Spirit - the triunity. Christianity is simplistic at the core. It is man's misunderstandings that make it more difficult to uderstand and to relate to. Even with all of the things that we can't possibly understand about God, if we look at the simplicity of salvation, most of the other issues don't matter anyway.

 

[peaceful soul]

Christian trinity concept comes from Hinduism trinity while they were mixing Krishna's life history with Christ's and some Vecic verses with Bible.

First one would have to prove that Christianity was actually influenced by Hindistic concepts. You would not only have to show similiarity, but that the concept was transfered or adapted directly to the other belief system and used in the same way as it was in its original form. It should be quite obvious that Christianity and Hinduism are highly contrasting belief systems to warrant what you say. Even the trinity concept is not used in the same sense or mean the same thing. Conclusion: they just happen to be similar: correlation = 0.

 

[Illuminatus]

It appears the OP is God. At least, it was always my understanding that God was the only judge of who was a Christian or not.

 

[DjDan]

There has been no explanation that I have ever read to support the God being all three persons but only one being. To take it from one perspective, Jesus being baptised by immersion by John the Baptist, hears a voice from heaven, saying, this is my Beloved Son in whom I am well pleased and then sees the Holy Ghost descending as a dove.

Now let us be rational here. This tidbit, lends one to think the possible following,

1. Jesus heard voices and saw figments of his imagination.

or

2. Something is missing from the scriptures to explain this situation.

One can conclude that God the Father and Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost reside in different forms or bodies. Or one can continue to believe that God is mysterious and we have no ability to understand him.

Take your flavour. It really doesn't change if someone is a christian or not. What defines a Christian is one who follows after and believes in Jesus teachings.

Now as someone who left the LDS faith some years back, I participated from 18-43, Mormons most fervently DO believe in Jesus. There is nothing that they don't do that isn't done in his name. Children are blessed (christened) in his name. People are baptised in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Sacraments are blessed and taken in his name. Prayers are always concluded in Jesus name. I could go on but you get the idea.

Just because there are those who would lie about Mormons for their own personal agenda doesn't mean they aren't Christian. If we are to start ruling out who is or isn't Christian based on what other people think then I vote no one be allowed to carry the banner of christian because in my experience, no one is perfect at following what Jesus taught.

I love this post. Thankyou.

 

[DjDan]

*post edited by self*

 

[SwordOfGod]

In answer to Illuminatus, You are quite right that God is the only judge, and that anyone who does Judge whether a person is going to Heaven or Hell is elevating their status to that of God and committing a sin that is probably unforgivable. That said, God did something that modern countries still do today, He (through the authors of the bible) wrote down the conditions by which he governs by. If He had not it is very likely that nobody would be found acceptable in his eyes(notice I did not day worthy), as his conditions would be quickly forgotten. In all that I have said, I have not said that Mormons are going to Hell. Instead I have stated Bible verses that contradict the very basis of the mormon faith, therefore it is not I that have spoken, but God. I can tell by the replies that there is much question in why it is important to recognize Jesus as God, in order to do so I will have to delve into the very cornerstone of the christian faith.

I Thessalonians 5:23 "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Hebrews 4:12 "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

When God created the universe, man was created in His image, this was probably not meant to mean a physical image. Instead consider for a second that God is indeed a Triune being, we therefore, being the images of God, are also triune. As the passages above show(If you believe the bible is the infallible word of God), we are indeed triune being body, soul and spirit. After the fall of man the bible makes it clear that every human owed a physical death for our sins, and our lifespan decreased from 1000 to the limit of about 120 years. For many thousands of years God told the Isrealites to sacrifice animals to make clean themselves of their sins. In Isaiah we find however that not even a human's death can make up for any of our sins, we find throughout the old testament instead verses that state the sacrifices were only symbolic. That an Elect One, a Lamb of God had been prepared to die for our sins(Google messianic prophecies), and would make clean anyone who believed in Him, before Him and after. Continuing on the idea that God is a triune God(see first post), we can use reasoning to say that if the Father is a spirit-physical being with an image(throughout Ezekial and Isaiah),the Son is the physical expression of God(First couple of chapters of John), the Holy Spirit is completely without image, and that the body is the physical expression of man, that the soul is a spirit-physical being with an image(Revelation), and that the human spirit is without image, than we can conclude that the body is the image of the Son.I don't know if any of that made sense, however the point is that there are parallels between the trinity of man and the trinity of God, and that Jesus Christ is the body of God. If this is so, then when Jesus died on the cross, the Body of God died on the cross, therefore God died in the same way that we have to(physically not spiritually), he was the ultimate sacrifice and he carried all of our sins with him to Hell for three days before he was resurrected. If there is only one God as the bible proved in my first post, and it is impossible for humans to be made clean by anything less then God, then the the bible clearly states that the mormon way is not the way to salvation. Also in answer to DjDan's statement, God is triune and the biblical verses you pointed out only reinforce this. For one, just because God is trune does not neccasarily mean that all three persons are always together, indeed the Father (and at the second Christ) spends His time in the temple of Heaven, while the Holy Spirit is on Earth. Also when Jesus is asked about when His second coming would come, he says that neither He nor the Holy Spirit knew, but only the Father. And yet again I point out that the Bible clearly states that there is only one God(see first post). Also, as for the banner of christianity, I absolutely agree that no one(except Jesus) is perfect or for that matter even good at being Christian, but this only reinforces the need for understanding the bible, especially the parts about salvation, so we can make ourselves clean again from our nack at being bad at christianity.