Why make excuses?

[Der Alte]

I've never seen any evidence against homosexuality. Only people stating their personal views and religious beliefs as if they were facts.

Are you perhaps considered legally blind? See, e.g. Talmud and other ancient Jewish writings and the writings of the early church quoted in this and several other threads.

 

[Brieuse]

You know absolutely NOTHING about Hebrew grammar. I don't give a rats behind for what you think seems a more appropriate word. DO NOT even think about telling anyone what Hebrew words mean. You have ignored this several times.

Jewish Encyclopedia-Abomination
Rendering in the English versions of different Biblical terms denoting that which is loathed or detested on religious grounds and which, therefore, is utterly offensive to the Deity. These terms differ greatly in the degree of the abhorrence implied and should be distinguished in translation, as follows:

(1)
[size=+1]תועבה[/size] (to'ebah):Abomination of the highest degree; originally that which offends the religious sense of a people. Thus (Gen. xliii. 32): "The Egyptians might not eat bread with the Hebrews; for that is an abomination unto the Egyptians." The reason is that the Hebrews, as foreigners, were considered an inferior caste. According to Herodotus, ii. 41, no Egyptian would kiss a Greek on the mouth, or use his dish, or even taste meat cut with a carving-knife belonging to a Greek. But especially as shepherds the Hebrews were "an abomination unto the Egyptians" (Gen. xlvi. 34). The eating of unclean animals is a religious offense called to'ebah: "Thou shalt not eat any abominable thing" (Deut. xiv. 3). This is the introduction to the laws prohibiting the use of unclean animals (see Clean and Unclean Animals). Still more offensive to the God of Israel is the practise of idolatry. The idol itself is called an Abomination: "for it is an abomination to the Lord thy God. Neither shalt thou bring an abomination into thine house and thus become a thing set apart [tabooed= [i]kherem[/i]] like unto it; thou shalt utterly detest it and utterly abhor it; for it is a thing set apart [tabooed]" (Deut. vii. 25, 26, Heb.): "Cursed be the man that maketh a graven or molten image, an abomination unto the Lord" (Deut. xxvii. 15). Often the word to'ebah is used for idol or heathen deity; for instance, in Isa. xliv. 19; Deut. xxxii. 16; II Kings, xxiii. 13, and especially Ex. viii. 22 (26, A. V.), it is to be taken in this sense. When Pharaoh had told the Israelites to offer sacrifices to their God in Egypt, Moses replied: "How may we sacrifice the abomination of the Egyptians [that is, the kind of animals worshiped by them] before their eyes, and they not stone us?" (see Ibn Ezra, ad loc.).

All idolatrous practise is an Abomination because of its defiling character: "Every abomination to the Lord which he hateth have they done unto their gods" (Deut. xii. 31; compare Deut. xiii. 15, xvii. 4, xx. 18). Also magic and divination are an Abomination (Deut. xviii. 12). Sexual transgression is particularly denounced as an Abomination (to'ebah) (Deut. xxii. 5, xxiii. 19 [18, A. V.], xxiv. 4); especially incest and unnatural offenses (Lev. xviii. and xx.): "For all these abominations have the men of the land done who were before you, and the land became defiled; lest the land vomit you out also when ye defile it" (Lev. xviii. 27, 28, Heb.; compare also Ezek. viii. 15 and elsewhere).

But the word to'ebah also assumes a higher spiritual meaning and is applied also to moral iniquities: "Thou shalt not have in thine house divers measures, a great and a small. . . For all that do such things, and all that do unrighteously, are an abomination unto the Lord thy God" (Deut. xxv. 14-16). In the same strain we are taught that "lying lips" (Prov. xii. 22), "the perverse" (ib. iii. 32, R.V.) the "proud in heart" (ib. xvi. 5), "the way of the wicked" (ib. xv. 9), "thoughts of evil" (ib. xv. 26, Heb.), and "he that justifieth the wicked and he that condemneth the righteous" (ib. xvii. 15) are an Abomination. "These six things doth the Lord hate, yea, seven things are an abomination to him: haughty eyes; a lying tongue; hands that shed innocent blood; a heart that deviseth wicked imaginations; feet that be swift in running to mischief; a false witness that uttereth lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren" (ib. vi. 16-19, Heb.). In another direction the prohibition of an abominable thing is given an ethical meaning: "Thou shalt not sacrifice unto the Lord thy God an ox or a sheep wherein is a blemish, for that is an abomination unto the Lord thy God" (Deut. xvii. 1, Heb.). Here the physical character of the sacrifice is offensive. But prophet and sage declare that any sacrifice without purity of motive is an Abomination: "Bring no more an oblation of falsehood—an incense of abomination it is to me" (Isa. i. 13, Heb.; compare Jer. vii. 10). "The sacrifice of the wicked" (Prov. xv. 8, xxi. 27) and the prayer of "him that turneth his ear from hearing the law" (Prov. xxviii. 9, Heb.) are an Abomination.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=352&letter=A​

Yes, I am fully aware of the Jewish stance on those passages. Thank you.

 

[Der Alte]

Yes, I am fully aware of the Jewish stance on those passages. Thank you.

And you obviously think the non-Hebrew speaking biases, assumptions, and presuppositions of various homosexual websites is more valid? Remember you said up there somewhere to read the scripture in the historical context of the time it was written in, NOT your 20th century perversion of scripture.

 

[Brieuse]

And you obviously think the non-Hebrew speaking biases, assumptions, and presuppositions of various homosexual websites is more valid? Remember you said up there somewhere to read the scripture in the historical context of the time it was written in, NOT your 20th perversion of scripture.

Not necessarily. But I do believe that I have a point.

It might be perverted in your mind, in my mind your's has been perverted.

 

[*Starlight*]

Are you perhaps considered legally blind? See, e.g. Talmud and other ancient Jewish writings and the writings of the early church quoted in this and several other threads.

I've never seen any evidence against homosexuality. Only people stating their personal views and religious beliefs as if they were facts.

 

[UberLutheran]

Why do people try to hide from the truth?

Isn't it because they want to continue on doing the thigs they want, even though they know it's wroung?

Given all of the evidence against homosexuality, or any other sin, I have heard people twist the scripture, throw it out, rationalize, deny the scripture etc.

The truth is this:

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The word of God is the truth. When people hear the truth, they have three options:

1. Believe the truth, and walk accordingly.

2. Believe the truth, and walk contrarily.

3. Deny the truth, and hide from it.

If you consider the truth, and walk in it, then you will become wise.

If you ever want to know the truth, just ask JESUS, and He'll show you, although sometimes it is hard to accept.

Let me make something perfectly clear.

I don't make excuses -- not for myself, and not for anybody else.

I know who I am, and I'm quite comfortable living in my own skin.

I have a good relationship with Jesus. If anybody doesn't like that, that's their business and their problem (not mine).

I'm under no obligation to change myself or my relationship with God to make anybody else feel more comfortable being around me. If someone has a problem with me, that's their problem (not mine).

I am not a fundamentalist, nor do I accept fundamentalist interpretations of Scripture. I use the historical-critical model for reading and interpreting Scripture, and if people don't like that, that's their problem (not mine).

I take the Scriptures very seriously, but I do not believe they are inerrant. In fact, taken literally, Scripture contradicts itself all over the place. If you want to believe the Scriptures are inerrant and infallable, that' s fine; but I don't believe the Scriptures are inerrant and infallible and if people don't like that, that's their problem (not mine).

I am not beholden to what your pastor, or your bishop, or your denomination, or what the Pope says about homosexuality. I'm not even beholden to fundamentalist or literalist beliefs about homosexuality. I'm not a fundamentalist or a literalist, and the reason I'm not a fundamentalist or a literalist has nothing to do with homosexuality and has everything to do with historical-critical method of reading and interpreting Scripture. If you want to be a fundamentalist, that's fine. If you want to have a literalist belief about what Scripture says about homosexuality, that's fine, too. Don't expect me to hold to your beliefs just because you have a fundamentalist or literalist belief about Scripture and you think homosexuality and homosexuals are "icky": I don't share that belief, nor am I beholden to that belief. If people don't like that, that's their problem (not mine).

And as far as this forum is concerned, people have three options:

1) You can choose to read my threads;
2) You can choose not to read my threads;
3) You can put me on "ignore".

And I'm quite comfortable with any of those three options.

However, people do NOT have the right to:

- determine my relationship with God for me;
- decide for me whether or not I am a Christian;
- fabricate statements about me, or make assumptions about me which may or may not have anything to do with reality, and then hold me accountable for their assumptions;
- expect me to change my life to suit them, or what they think God thinks my life should be.

Let me make this perfectly clear: my life, and my faith, and my Christianity are between me and God.

Capiche?

 

[Der Alte]

. . . In fact, taken literally, Scripture contradicts itself all over the place. . . .

Depends on a person's definition of "inerrant." But there are no contradictions or errors in scripture. I know there are a lot of Christian hating, God hating, Bible hating athiest websites that make that claim. I never understood why someone who claims to be a Christian would crawl around in that kind of sewer just to attack the Word of God.

There are some textual variants but NONE that affect any essential doctrines. You know I'm kinda funny this way I believe that God is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent and that he is capable of guarding his word just as he said.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.​

Given the choice I will take the Word of God over the word of uber.
.

 

[Der Alte]

Your irrelevant personal opinion.

 

[UberLutheran]

You're perfectly entitled to believe what you wish, as you wish to believe it.

However, I am not obligated to share your belief.

And I don't.

 

[BAFRIEND]

I feel the absence of any honor or goodwill at all bestowed upon a single homosexual in the Bible speaks more than any single passage ever could.

 

[UberLutheran]

I feel the absence of any honor or goodwill at all bestowed upon a single homosexual in the Bible speaks more than any single passage ever could.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[BigBadWlf]

Why do people try to hide from the truth?

Isn't it because they want to continue on doing the thigs they want, even though they know it's wroung?

Given all of the evidence against homosexuality, or any other sin, I have heard people twist the scripture, throw it out, rationalize, deny the scripture etc.

The truth is this:

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The word of God is the truth. When people hear the truth, they have three options:

1. Believe the truth, and walk accordingly.

2. Believe the truth, and walk contrarily.

3. Deny the truth, and hide from it.

If you consider the truth, and walk in it, then you will become wise.

If you ever want to know the truth, just ask JESUS, and He'll show you, although sometimes it is hard to accept.

given all the evidence against prejudice, hate and discrimination why do so many Christians engage in it?

 

[BigBadWlf]

The rationale:

"Since I am attracted to men = God condones it".

Well, there are men who have drives to rape, molest children, and get close to animals. It is all part of the fallen nature. Part of the world that the Apostles warned us about.

I have chosen to hate an entire minority = God condones it

I wonder if some pedophiles came on here and started using the twisting of the same scriptures around to justify their sexual orientations, what the homosexuals would have to say to that ?

ah…the famous ‘if you can’t come up with a legitimate excuse for prejudice just falsely compare homosexuals to pedophiles tactic

 

[UberLutheran]

given all the evidence against prejudice, hate and discrimination why do so many Christians engage in it?

"Because that's part of the OLD Covenant. It no longer applies."

 

[BigBadWlf]

Adultery is sex outside marriage, whether one is married or not. The point of marriage is to have and raise children, since that is impossible for same sex partners, no marriage exists.

By this “logic” infertile heterosexuals cannot be married since it is impossible for them ot have and raise children.

Or are you going to pose a double standard and try to say that the limitation of not having children ONLY applied to the minority that you have chosen to try to justify prejudice and discrimination

 

[BigBadWlf]

Okay, where in the Bible does Jesus walk up to the person leading a gay lifestyle and condone it ? Where is there even a valid example of this in the New testament or anywhere else in the Bible.

Where are all the homosexual couples in the Bible being held in high esteem in the Word inspired by the Holy Spirit ?

can you cite chapter and verse where Jesus condemns homosexuals?

 

[BAFRIEND]

I have chosen to hate an entire minority = God condones it


ah…the famous ‘if you can’t come up with a legitimate excuse for prejudice just falsely compare homosexuals to pedophiles tactic

A) I have not chosen to hate anyone, hate the sin...
B) Comparing homosexuals to pedaphiles is legitimate due to the fact it is the comparison of an immoral sex act, and not the severity of the immorality.

By this “logic” infertile heterosexuals cannot be married since it is impossible for them ot have and raise children.

Or are you going to pose a double standard and try to say that the limitation of not having children ONLY applied to the minority that you have chosen to try to justify prejudice and discrimination

C) There is no double standard. God created two genders for obvious reasons.

can you cite chapter and verse where Jesus condemns homosexuals?

D) I never do cites on demands. If you could so profoundly refute that implication, you would have. Do your own homework, please.

E) If people want to argue that leading a gay lifestyle is okay, a perception that has never been held in Judaism or Christianity for thousands of years, then I will debate it. If your only tool against it is to attack me by calling me prejudice and a discriminatory predator, so be it. It just seems a little too convenient and lazy to me.

 

[BAFRIEND]

Thanks for sharing.

...please don't tell me you have a pomeranian.

 

[UberLutheran]

...please don't tell me you have a pomeranian.

It's our neighbor's Pom. We're taking care of her for two weeks.

Nice dog, but a big hyper. The cats detest her.

 

[BigBadWlf]

A) I have not chosen to hate anyone, hate the sin...
B) Comparing homosexuals to pedaphiles is legitimate due to the fact it is the comparison of an immoral sex act, and not the severity of the immorality.

it is no different form falsely associating black men with rapists to justify discrimination based on skin color.

C) There is no double standard. God created two genders for obvious reasons.

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/specplea.html


On the one hand you wish to use infertility as a means to justify prejudice and discrimination against gays and lesbians…but at the same time you don’t’ want that same reason applied to infertile heterosexuals.

D) I never do cites on demands. If you could so profoundly refute that implication, you would have. Do your own homework, please.

So you cannot cite such a verse…why not just say so?

E) If people want to argue that leading a gay lifestyle is okay, a perception that has never been held in Judaism or Christianity for thousands of years, then I will debate it. If your only tool against it is to attack me by calling me prejudice and a discriminatory predator, so be it. It just seems a little too convenient and lazy to me.

perhaps if you were to provide some justification for prejudice and discrimination against an entire minority other than your personal biblical interpretation such a debate could take place.

I have yet to see such an argument that was not, at best, recycled racism.