Why live at all?

[Archaeopteryx]

A finite being living in a finite realm placing judgment on an eternal God.
I don't have to tell you what's wrong with this picture do I ?
But then again your giving the biased shortened version of the Canaanite judgments right?

Care to take a guess where those children are at right now according to Christian beliefs of what God is? And maybe u can tell us how long the Canaanites were given to stop their perverted ways ? Yes u probably don't know as you already judged God way before you bread about the genocides.
God gave us free will and if you don't want to be with him he will give you that wish in the afterlife, but there is another being that won't give you that wish.
Good luck my friend, as for me I'm choosing the a god who is the essence of love itself, the essence of morality itself and everlasting life in heaven.

Christopher Hitchens made the same statements you just made . Hope you will be happy where he wanted to go.

How deliciously condescending! And we get called arrogant!

 

[Christian-Catholic]

Your assertions don't establish that as fact.

They do establish them as fact as so far as what we as Christians believe that God is,and theologians have wrestled with these things for many hundreds if years , it's not like they popped up overnight.

 

[Christian-Catholic]

Rubbish. I don't need to appeal to deities to make moral claims, and neither do you.

Your right but notice that I wasn't talking about subjective moral claims but objective moral claims.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

They do establish them as fact as so far as what we as Christians believe that God is,and theologians have wrestled with these things for many hundreds if years , it's not like they popped up overnight.

Yes, as "fact" in so far as you believe them to be fact in your religion.

Your right but notice that I wasn't talking about subjective moral claims but objective moral claims.

Which you've reduced to religious claims, which is in itself problematic given the sheer breadth of conflicting religious claims.

 

[Christian-Catholic]

How deliciously condescending! And we get called arrogant!

There is absolutely nothing condescending or arrogant about what I just said. I didn't pronounce judgement on Hitchens , I merely said that God will not force heaven on anyone.

And the poster that said he doesn't need a God like this is basically making the same statement that Hitchens made. They don't want to be with God even if he is real (Hitchens even said so publicly) and I merely said God will never force heaven on anyone .

Being an inclusivist means we believe that people from many different faiths can be saved, but when you make the claim that you don't want to be with God then he will grant your wish because he loves you to much take that choice away from u.

Please tell me where my statement is arrogant?
Or condescending cause I just don't see it.
When I pray I pray for people of all worldview.
I have a friend for 10 years now and in 9 of those years he as an atheist/pantheist . Now he is a spiritual Buddhist , I couldn't be happier, but it doesn't change the fact that I pray every day for him.
He now knows what an Christian inclusivist is! something you have no idea about at all. If you actually did you would understand my post .

Now if he said he doesn't want to ever be with God the his wish will be granted, but he is a spiritual seeker and all I want for him as his friend is his total happiness.

 

[Christian-Catholic]

Yes, as "fact" in so far as you believe them to be fact in your religion.



Which you've reduced to religious claims, which is in itself problematic given the sheer breadth of conflicting religious claims.

Yes since we believe that God is the essence of morality itself and people seem to intuitively sense that some things are objectively good and objectively bad, which is impossible come from an atheistic worldview.

In that worldview a butcher of millions is no more objectively evil or good then someone helping an old lady across the street , and lots of great logical arguments can be made for butchering billions and for not butchering billions but they are still subjective opinions.

Without the transcendent objective essence of morality itself it's just my opinion against yours .

Rape is wrong, it's not my opinion that its wrong but it's wrong objectively .
Just because many different religions have some difference between them doesn't mean that there aren't objective moral values. That's a non sequitur and. Deflection of the point.

No one said atheists can't be good people. That's not what the discussion is about. But by your emotional reaction it doesn't look like u understand argument at all , and it's ok, these kinds of arguments aren't meant for everyone.

My dad calls himself a Christian with no set denomination! my mom is a hardcore Catholic and I'm an inclusivist Catholic.

Most Christians would be appalled that I have ex-atheist now deist Antony flew in my purgatory prayer list but I do.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Yes since we believe that God is the essence of morality itself and people seem to intuitively sense that some things are objectively good and objectively bad, which is impossible come from an atheistic worldview.

In that worldview a butcher of millions is no more objectively evil or good then someone helping an old lady across the street , and lots of great logical arguments can be made for butchering billions and for not butchering billions but they are still subjective opinions.

Without the transcendent objective essence of morality itself it's just my opinion against yours .

Rape is wrong, it's not my opinion that its wrong but it's wrong objectively .
Just because many different religions have some difference between them doesn't mean that there aren't objective moral values. That's a non sequitur and. Deflection of the point.

No one said atheists can't be good people. That's not what the discussion is about. But by your emotional reaction it doesn't look like u understand argument at all , and it's ok, these kinds of arguments aren't meant for everyone.

My dad calls himself a Christian with no set denomination! my mom is a hardcore Catholic and I'm an inclusivist Catholic.

Most Christians would be appalled that I have ex-atheist now deist Antony flew in my purgatory prayer list but I do.

Someone could argue that to butcher millions is objectively good because God commands it. You could argue otherwise, again appealing to the supernatural. Religion doesn't solve the problem; it makes it worse by reducing moral discourse to a dispute of religious opinions. Even assuming a deity, it's just your religious opinion against someone else's. You argue that it's wrong to rape because it's not something God would approve of. Someone else argues that God does approve of it under such and such circumstances. As someone already pointed out, absent a workable epistemology you are stuck arguing past each other and will make no progress.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

There is absolutely nothing condescending or arrogant about what I just said. I didn't pronounce judgement on Hitchens , I merely said that God will not force heaven on anyone.

And the poster that said he doesn't need a God like this is basically making the same statement that Hitchens made. They don't want to be with God even if he is real (Hitchens even said so publicly) and I merely said God will never force heaven on anyone .

Being an inclusivist means we believe that people from many different faiths can be saved, but when you make the claim that you don't want to be with God then he will grant your wish because he loves you to much take that choice away from u.

Please tell me where my statement is arrogant?
Or condescending cause I just don't see it.
When I pray I pray for people of all worldview.
I have a friend for 10 years now and in 9 of those years he as an atheist/pantheist . Now he is a spiritual Buddhist , I couldn't be happier, but it doesn't change the fact that I pray every day for him.
He now knows what an Christian inclusivist is! something you have no idea about at all. If you actually did you would understand my post .

Now if he said he doesn't want to ever be with God the his wish will be granted, but he is a spiritual seeker and all I want for him as his friend is his total happiness.

My apologies. I think I've misread your post.

 

[Charbel7]

H.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

Sorry but that doesn't wash because morality doesn't just spring forth from the mind of God, but he is morality itself. There is no bases to call it subjective when he is morality itself. The bible doesn't just say that our God is a loving God but that he is love itself. He is the essence of love itself and the essence of morality itself and by that definition it can only be objective .

To say Yahweh is 'morality itself' does nothing whatsoever to address the criticism. All it does is push the same question back one step.

Did Yahweh choose his own moral nature? Then morality is in fact subjective to his whim.

Did he not choose it? Then morality exists apart from him, and necessitates no ontological basis in him.

You're back where you started. Morality is either arbitrarily entangled with Yahweh's whims, or it exists independent of him. Which horn of Euthyphro do you care to impale yourself on?

Your assertions don't change this fact.

Your moral philosophy is both ontologically and epistemologically vacuous. You don't have facts.

 

[Gadarene]

A finite being living in a finite realm placing judgment on an eternal God.

And yet you've already judged him as good.

Can't have it both ways.

But then again your giving the biased shortened version of the Canaanite judgments right?

As opposed to the utterly ridiculous rote-apologetics you go on to post?

Care to take a guess where those children are at right now according to Christian beliefs of what God is? And maybe u can tell us how long the Canaanites were given to stop their perverted ways ? Yes u probably don't know as you already judged God way before you bread about the genocides.

Ah, ok - so it's alright to kill kids to ensure they get to heaven?

Have you any kids? Killed them yet?

Why are Christians against abortion, in that case?

Also, it is ridiculous to assume that an entire culture is utterly and unrepentantly evil. Even if the predominant culture is that way, there are always minority or countercultural forces.

No, I didn't judge God first and then read - I concluded what utterly incoherent nonsense Christian morality is based on reading what his so-called objective moral commands involved in OT days, and on the utter failure of Christians to come up with a cogent defence of them.

(Full marks to you for unoriginality, by the way.)

God gave us free will and if you don't want to be with him he will give you that wish in the afterlife, but there is another being that won't give you that wish.

Yes, well done for outlining Yahweh's unjust setup.

Good luck my friend

Drop the false-familiarity. We're not friends, and I wouldn't particularly wish to be friends with a genocide apologist anyway

as for me I'm choosing the a god who is the essence of love itself, the essence of morality itself and everlasting life in heaven

All you do by claiming your genocidal tyrant of a god is love, morality and goodness itself is mangle and deform those concepts. If love, morality and goodness can entail genocide, then the terms are meaningless.

Christopher Hitchens made the same statements you just made . Hope you will be happy where he wanted to go.

An atheist wanted to go to hell?

Try and talk sense

 

[Gadarene]

There is absolutely nothing condescending or arrogant about what I just said. I didn't pronounce judgement on Hitchens , I merely said that God will not force heaven on anyone.

And the poster that said he doesn't need a God like this is basically making the same statement that Hitchens made. They don't want to be with God even if he is real (Hitchens even said so publicly) and I merely said God will never force heaven on anyone .

Yes, it's called integrity. Perhaps you've heard of it?

That doesn't mean your deity is being just by any means, however.

 

[Dave Ellis]

A finite being living in a finite realm placing judgment on an eternal God.
I don't have to tell you what's wrong with this picture do I ?

Yes, you do. I've heard this claim from many Christians, and it's still not a valid argument.

Why does the length of time a being exists for, or it's power exempt it from being judged morally? If your god is defined as the epitome of moral behaviour, then he should be judged more harshly than any other being. He is supposed to be setting the example after all.

 

[fireof god98]

though is something good because god declarers it to be so or does it have the attributes of being good and so god calls it good.

 

[oi_antz]

Is it not better to end any instance of suffering?

What would dying do to help that? Only living for others will end suffering.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Only living for others will end suffering.

In my experience, that is simply not true.

Certainly, we are social beings, and being helpful to others is part of a good human life, but living for yourself does in some ways contribute to personal happiness.

For instance, when accomplishing something of value to myself, such as graduating from high school and college, I have felt a significant boost to my happiness.

And some of the most depressed people I have known have practiced "living for others", with no particular benefit.

I'm not suggesting that it can't feel good to help a friend in need. I have experienced that too. However, this is not the magic key to a happy life, and certainly not the only key.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[pyramid33]

In my experience, that is simply not true.

Certainly, we are social beings, and being helpful to others is part of a good human life, but living for yourself does in some ways contribute to personal happiness.

For instance, when accomplishing something of value to myself, such as graduating from high school and college, I have felt a significant boost to my happiness.

And some of the most depressed people I have known have practiced "living for others", with no particular benefit.

I'm not suggesting that it can't feel good to help a friend in need. I have experienced that too. However, this is not the magic key to a happy life, and certainly not the only key.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Hey Mark, would you consider dying for another?

 

[Eudaimonist]

Hey Mark, would you consider dying for another?

I would consider it. Why do you ask?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[pyramid33]

Why does the length of time a being exists for, or it's power exempt it from being judged morally?

Are you prepared for that?

Sometimes I ponder that the young died young because they are ready. Are you ready? Am I ready? Maybe I'm holding onto something I shouldn't be holding onto. Maybe I need to better myself in order to be ready for eternity. Suddenly I'm a little afraid, yet at the same time comforted. Maybe I can improve the life I'm living and give a good testimony before the judge of truth. Surely there is something I can do better. I love the tree blooms in the spring and the flowers that bud and then spring forth. I love the heat that replaces the cold temperatures. I love the fact that people get comfortable in the warmth of the sun when spring arrives. I miss the cold a little and then am overwhelmed by the warmth. The energy. The drive. It pushes me, invites me to give as much as I can, gladly. I don't want to harm anybody and anybody doesn't want to harm me. I feel relieved in some way, as if I'm renewed. A new day, a new life.

 

[Profane]

Why is everyone so focused on avoiding suffering? I enjoy suffering, it reminds me that I'm alive.