Why live at all?

[Golden Yak]

i live to leave a mark on history no matter how small it is and to maybe further our understanding. i wonder although why Christians don't commit suicide to get to heaven faster

There's a bit in there about God scorning those who take their own lives. Keeps the flock from thinning themselves out that way.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

i live to leave a mark on history no matter how small it is and to maybe further our understanding. i wonder although why Christians don't commit suicide to get to heaven faster

The question of life's worth must be especially salient to those who believe that a paradise awaits them on the other side of death's door; a heaven in which all earthly concerns fade away and one is immersed in total bliss. Why live when this world - this life - is so dull, cold and pointless in comparison to the promised afterworld and its incomprehensibly euphoric afterlife? Why wonder at nature's beauty when there is something far more beautiful waiting for you? Why study the mysteries of the cosmos when you'll find all the answers you seek simply by passing away? And to think that we atheists are accused of nihilism!

 

[Ana the Ist]

The question of life's worth must be especially salient to those who believe that a paradise awaits them on the other side of death's door; a heaven in which all earthly concerns fade away and one is immersed in total bliss. Why live when this world - this life - is so dull, cold and pointless in comparison to the promised afterworld and its incomprehensibly euphoric afterlife? Why wonder at nature's beauty when there is something far more beautiful waiting for you? Why study the mysteries of the cosmos when you'll find all the answers you seek simply by passing away? And to think that we atheists are accused of nihilism!

I read once that early early christians were somewhat notorious for wanting to be martyred. They broke Roman laws and upon facing punishment, sought death...literally asking to be martyred.

If only all christians had such faith and conviction.

 

[william23]

there is nothing better to do.

 

[KCfromNC]

Metaphysical naturalism does not afford you purpose because in such a view, you were not created or made for a purpose.

Metaphysical naturalism doesn't rule out purpose for humans. For example, humans created for specific purposes by advanced aliens would be perfectly consistent with metaphysical naturalism.

So is your real objection that reality - the evidence that unguided natural processes led to humans existing - rules out a purpose for humans? If so, I'm not expecting many people to be likely to reject reality just because it makes you feel bad.

 

[KCfromNC]

Correct and that means exactly what I said, in atheism existence or non existence is subjectively good or bad depending on a persons opinion

That's not true. At best you can say that an atheist won't believe in a god-given objective morality. As you've seen it is possible for an atheist to believe in a non-god-given objective morality.

But in Christianity there is an objective good

Depends on whether or not you think the random whims of an unknowable entity can be considered an objective standard in any sense of the phrase.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

That's not true. At best you can say that an atheist won't believe in a god-given objective morality. As you've seen it is possible for an atheist to believe in a non-god-given objective morality.

Depends on whether or not you think the random whims of an unknowable entity can be considered an objective standard in any sense of the phrase.

A good point. The putatively objective standard Christian apologists appeal to reduces morality to nothing more than obedience. In effect, it confuses morality for obedience. It is good because "God said it", or at least he apparently said it to some prophet who wrote it down many years ago.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Metaphysical naturalism does not afford you purpose because in such a view, you were not created or made for a purpose.

I don't see why that should mean that I don't have a naturally appropriate purpose that arises as a matter of my natural function. Whatever would the thoughts of a creator have to do with anything?

You just exist like a rock, or a slug, or a fruit fly as a result of natural processes acting on matter over a period of time.

Except that I'm not by nature a rock, a slug, or a fruit fly. I have a considerably more complex psychology and function than any of those.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[durangodawood]

Purpose is a desire of a conscious mind.

God could give you purpose.

Or, You could give yourself purpose (which is consistent with metaphysical naturalism).

 

[Davian]

God, by definition, is a character in a book. For anything else you will need more than apologetics.

That's a terrible definition to work/discuss with. As any ancient people can be describe as a character in a book/paper/stone-table/etc.

In the absence of any objective measure to separate one god from another, they are all reduced to characters in books, unless a theist here would like to represent a robust, testable definition of what they mean by "god".

 

[Ken-1122]

Correct and that means exactly what I said, in atheism existence or non existence is subjectively good or bad depending on a persons opinion, there is no objective good or bad in atheism and there is absolutely nothing special about us.

But in Christianity there is an objective good and an objective bad and this is the difference and that is why we say in Christianity that all human beings are special because they were created to be special by our creator God.

What do you mean when you say "objective good and objective bad? Is it like math where as anybody who knows how to add will agree that 1+1=2? or how everybody with their sences functioning properly will agree that the grass is green, sugar is sweet, and the brick wall in front of them exist? In other words; do you belive if slavery (for example) were an objective bad, that everybody with morals will agree?

Ken

 

[Christian-Catholic]

What do you mean when you say "objective good and objective bad? Is it like math where as anybody who knows how to add will agree that 1+1=2? or how everybody with their sences functioning properly will agree that the grass is green, sugar is sweet, and the brick wall in front of them exist? In other words; do you belive if slavery (for example) were an objective bad, that everybody with morals will agree?

Ken

We believe that there is an objective bad and an objective good.
Let me give you an example.

Let me ask you a question.

Do you believe rape is objectively bad or objectively good or subjectively bad or subjectively good.
If you believe that rape is objectively bad than it is objectively bad no matter where you are.
If you believe in subjective morality (moral relativism) then you don't think rape is objectively good or bad, that it all depends on a persons opinion.

I believe that rate is objectively evil no matter where we are on earth, and I argue that most people on this planet also argue this.

In an atheist worldview rape can be ok or not depending on the persons opinion , nothing more. Fortunately most people on this planet intuition sense that rape is always evil, but in atheism you cant really tell us that rape is always evil.

And yes we believe that there are certain acts that are objectively evil as much as grass is green

 

[Eudaimonist]

In an atheist worldview rape can be ok or not depending on the persons opinion , nothing more.

Please stop speaking for atheists or atheistic worldviews. While there certainly are atheists who are moral subjectivists, there are also atheists, such as myself, who think that there is something more to the evilness of rape than mere opinion. There are atheistic worldviews that aren't morally subjective in the sense you appear to mean.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Cute Tink]

Please stop speaking for atheists or atheistic worldviews. While there certainly are atheists who are moral subjectivists, there are also atheists, such as myself, who think that there is something more to the evilness of rape than mere opinion. There are atheistic worldviews that aren't morally subjective in the sense you appear to mean.

eudaimonia,

Mark

As another atheist, I agree entirely with this statement

 

[Gadarene]

We believe that there is an objective bad and an objective good. Let me give you an example. Let me ask you a question. Do you believe rape is objectively bad or objectively good or subjectively bad or subjectively good. If you believe that rape is objectively bad than it is objectively bad no matter where you are. If you believe in subjective morality (moral relativism) then you don't think rape is objectively good or bad, that it all depends on a persons opinion. I believe that rate is objectively evil no matter where we are on earth, and I argue that most people on this planet also argue this. In an atheist worldview rape can be ok or not depending on the persons opinion , nothing more. Fortunately most people on this planet intuition sense that rape is always evil, but in atheism you cant really tell us that rape is always evil. And yes we believe that there are certain acts that are objectively evil as much as grass is green

God's law is essentially his opinion too, and he has justified genocides with it. If that's objective morality, you can keep it.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

In an atheist worldview rape can be ok or not depending on the persons opinion , nothing more. Fortunately most people on this planet intuition sense that rape is always evil, but in atheism you cant really tell us that rape is always evil.

I wouldn't go lobbing stones from inside that glass house you're sitting in, if I were you.

Even if 'god-based' morality had a coherent ontology and workable epistemology to speak of - which it doesn't - it would still be necessarily subjective, by virtue of its predication on the mind of Yahweh. What's more, you couldn't even utilize the same arguments secular subjectivists use in defense of their moral philosophy, so your position wouldn't merely be identical, but much worse off.

Take the plank from out thine own eye.

 

[Christian-Catholic]

I wouldn't go lobbing stones from inside that glass house you're sitting in, if I were you.

Even if 'god-based' morality had a coherent ontology and workable epistemology to speak of - which it doesn't - it would still be necessarily subjective, by virtue of its predication on the mind of Yahweh. What's more, you couldn't even utilize the same arguments secular subjectivists use in defense of their moral philosophy, so your position wouldn't merely be identical, but much worse off.

Take the plank from out thine own eye.

Sorry but that doesn't wash because morality doesn't just spring forth from the mind of God, but he is morality itself. There is no bases to call it subjective when he is morality itself. The bible doesn't just say that our God is a loving God but that he is love itself. He is the essence of love itself and the essence of morality itself and by that definition it can only be objective .

Your assertions don't change this fact .

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Sorry but that doesn't wash because morality doesn't just spring forth from the mind of God, but he is morality itself. There is no bases to call it subjective when he is morality itself. The bible doesn't just say that our God is a loving God but that he is love itself. He is the essence of love itself and the essence of morality itself and by that definition it can only be objective .

Your assertions don't change this fact .

Your assertions don't establish that as fact.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

In an atheist worldview rape can be ok or not depending on the persons opinion , nothing more. Fortunately most people on this planet intuition sense that rape is always evil, but in atheism you cant really tell us that rape is always evil.

Rubbish. I don't need to appeal to deities to make moral claims, and neither do you.

 

[Christian-Catholic]

God's law is essentially his opinion too, and he has justified genocides with it. If that's objective morality, you can keep it.

A finite being living in a finite realm placing judgment on an eternal God.
I don't have to tell you what's wrong with this picture do I ?
But then again your giving the biased shortened version of the Canaanite judgments right?

Care to take a guess where those children are at right now according to Christian beliefs of what God is? And maybe u can tell us how long the Canaanites were given to stop their perverted ways ? Yes u probably don't know as you already judged God way before you bread about the genocides.
God gave us free will and if you don't want to be with him he will give you that wish in the afterlife, but there is another being that won't give you that wish.
Good luck my friend, as for me I'm choosing the a god who is the essence of love itself, the essence of morality itself and everlasting life in heaven.

Christopher Hitchens made the same statements you just made . Hope you will be happy where he wanted to go.