Why Job suffered.

thankfulttt said:

No Job did not curse God in chapter three. But have you considered it odd that Job did curse?
There was two tests that Job endured. Satan said that Job would not bless God to his face after the first test. But Satan was wrong, Job did bless God after the first test. And again Satan said Job would not bless God to his face after the second test. And this time Satan was right. Job did not bless God after the second test.

The word translated curse in chapters one and two is the Hebrew word "barak" meaning to bless. When it appears with the Hebrew word "lo" it means bless not, or as translated in the English curse. The Hebrew words for curse in chapter three are not the same as found in chapter one and two.

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thankfulttt said:

No the translations are not wrong. To not bless God is to curse God. It is the equivalent of saying Johnny is bad, when you could have said Johnny is not good. They both have basically the same meaning.

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thankfulttt said:

Of the 330 times "barak" occurs in the KJB it is only translated curse four times. And they all occur in the first two chapters of Job. 302 times it is translated bless. The first time it is used in Job it occurs as bless not(barak lo). Hebrew words that occur in the negative are often on a sliding scale. The translators chose curse for 'bless not'. Compare the two tests, and ask yourself why Job did not bless God the second time.

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thankfulttt said:

Job failed his second test and commenced his cursing.

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thankfulttt said:

When you read Job chapters 40-41 it becomes obvious your statement is not sound.

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thankfulttt said:

You are absolutely right that Job did not sin with his lips. If you lay the two tests side by side you will find that they are presented identically, line for line, except where there was an actual difference. The differences are clear. First test Job blessed God. Second test Job did not bless God. After the first test God declared Job blameless and upright. After the second test God did not declare Job blameless and upright. After the first test it was stated that Job neither sinned, nor charged God foolishly. After the second test Job was limited to not sinning with his lips. It is informing to hear Job say his children may have cursed God in their hearts. Where was Job's heart when he did not bless God? What is evident is that Job commenced sinning shortly after the second test.

After the first test Job did not charge God foolishly. But at some point after the second test Job did charge God foolishly. God charged Job with striving with him, instructing him, reproving him, annulling God's judgment, and condemning God that Job might be righteous. God also asked Job if he was going to keep the king over all the children of pride for a servant forever. Those are not words meant for a just and upright man.

Isa 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

Notice after the second test, Job 2:8 "And he took him a potsherd to scrape himself withal; and he sat down among the ashes."

A potsherd is a vessel of clay that had to be broken, because it contained sin. Law of the sin offering(Leviticus 6:25-28).

When you see Job scraping himself with a potsherd, you have the picture God presents in Isaiah 45:9.

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thankfulttt said:

Yes even after you quoted from Ezekiel.

The picture we are given in Job is of a righteous man, clothed in his own righteousness. Who in his own pride exalts his righteousness over God's righteousness. God said, "Will you condemn me that you may be righteous?" Elihu said, "Think this to be right, that you said, You said, 'My righteousness is more than God's'?

Ezekiel 33:13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

God charged Job with striving with him, instructing him, reproving him, and exalting himself over God. It becomes obvious that Job was no longer upright.

Paul said,

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Job had been clothed in his own righteousness, but in the end he repents, and trades his righteousness for God's righteousness.

Isaiah 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

The wedding guests at the bridegroom's wedding will have put on God's robes of righteousness. Job discarded his robe of righteousness, and put on God's righteousness at the end of the book, when he declared he was vile.

When Ezekiel pointed to Job's righteousness it was the robe Job put on that had come from God.

Jeremiah 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

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To those outside the traditional religious circles, the Book of Job is probably the best known book in the Bible. It raises the deepest human question and deals with the most ancient of human fears. It examines the issue of meaning through the lens of human suffering and the absence of fairness and justice. As such the Book of Job has a counterpart in every religious tradition of the world. The great 20th century psychiatrist Carl Jung used this book as the basis of his probing the dimensions of human life in what I want to believe is his most profound work, The Answer to Job. Solving the question of why there is evil and suffering has been part of the human inquiry forever. It should surprise no one that these themes find a place in the Bible.
The original story of Job seems to date from about 1000-800 BCE and versions of it can be found among many nations, leading us to suspect that this is a universal human narrative. The biblical version of this story, however, did not get written until the 500s. We can date it fairly accurately, since it reflects elements of Persian religion that came into Jewish awareness during and after the exile of the 6th century BCE. The Book of Job, for example, introduces the figure of Satan into the biblical story, but in this book Satan is not yet an evil figure or even a fallen angel. That would develop later. In Job Satan is simply a part of the heavenly court who acts on God's command. The prologue to this book sets the stage for the drama.
God and Satan are discussing the faithfulness of God's servant Job. Satan suggests that Job's faithfulness is only because he has been blessed with riches and a large family. "Why should he not be faithful?" Satan asks, "since the system of reward and punishment works for him?" Would he still be faithful, Satan wonders, if his faithfulness was not so abundantly rewarded? God defends Job's faithfulness as sincere, but resolves to determine whether God or Satan is correct. God authorizes Satan to test Job for a season. Satan would remove the rewards of the good life from Job in order to determine whether his faithfulness would continue. This is when tragedy sweeps down on Job. His wealth is destroyed, his wives and children are killed and his health is taken from him. Job then tries to reconcile the established wisdom that God rewards faithfulness and punishes evil with his experience. Job is a righteous man. There is no debate about that since even God has certified his goodness in the introduction. Job, however, has now been brought low by these calamities. If calamities result from an evil life, he wonders, how can the righteous Job goodness explain his misfortunes? The stage is set for the entrance of Job's comforters.
Three of Job's friends, Eliphaz, Zophar and Bildad, hear of Job's tragedies and come to console him. The conversation between Job and his friends goes on for some thirty chapters. Supporting their conclusions, Job's friends have the common wisdom of that age, made up of undoubted "truths." God, as a just deity, rewards righteousness and punishes evil. For God to punish a righteous man would not only be inconceivable, but blasphemous. Job's friends buttress their argument by quoting scripture, since the Bible was filled with this traditional interpretation of God. Every defeat that the people of Israel had ever endured was seen by them as God's punishment for their disobedience. The message of the prophets was clear. The Jewish people had been punished with boils when King David conducted a census that displeased God. Moses had been punished with death because he had put God to the test in the wilderness of a place called Meribah. God had rewarded the people of Israel with the Exodus and the miracle at the Red Sea for the faithful endurance of their sufferings under the oppression of the Egyptians. This idea that if one obeyed the law and worshiped God properly one could count on blessings from heaven was a central tenet in popular Jewish religion. If one did not, the vengeance of God was said to be sure and swift. Deep down this firmly held belief delivered the Jewish people from the threat of meaninglessness. There was purpose, not chaos, in life. This purpose was best revealed in that human behavior controlled the response of God. Human goodness put God on one's side with rewards. Human faithlessness and evil brought God's wrath and divine retribution. Job's friends were confident in the rightness of their convictions.
When they confronted Job's calamities, there was, therefore, only one possible explanation. Job must be guilty of some unseen evil, so they came to help him come to grips with his sinfulness, to beg for forgiveness and to seek the mercy of God. They felt compelled to get Job to see the evil of his ways, believing that to be the only way to bring an end to his tragedy. Theological correctness was thus confronted by human experience and, as so often is the case, it simply did not fit.
Job stood alone against this common theological wisdom. He knew he was not deserving of these calamities. He could not deny the experience of his own character. He knew himself to be upright and honest, one who not only obeyed the law faithfully, but who also paid proper homage to the God of his ancestors. Yet he also knew that he had witnessed the loss of all that he valued – his family, his fortune and his health. In the most dramatic moment in the story, Job is portrayed as sitting on top of a garbage heap, scratching the infected sores of his body with a piece of broken pottery, alone with his inner integrity. None of his calamities made rational sense unless he was deserving of this treatment. The pressure from his friends was to face and to admit these things, to judge himself as evil and thus to make his suffering make sense.
The meaning of life itself was thus at stake in this debate. Only by the admission of his evil could he keep at bay the deep and perennial human fear that maybe there was not a God who was in control. If there is no God then perhaps life was chaotic, ruled only by chance, fate or luck, possessing no purpose, no meaning and no redemptive qualities. If that turned out to be the case then the human alternative was only to hope for the chance of blessing, since one could not earn it, or to endure endless suffering if that was to be his fate, with no further court of appeal. If the common theological wisdom did not operate then Job had to decide either that God was not just or that there was no God. This was the unspoken fear that Job's tormenters were resisting, and like all theological fundamentalists, that was why they pressed their case with such single-minded fervor.
Job, on the other hand, was willing to run this enormous risk because the common theological wisdom simply did not interpret properly his experience. With the unprecedented courage of one seeking a new human breakthrough, he stood against the conclusions of his friends, forcing on them a new alternative.
The Book of Job ends not with a negotiated settlement of this dispute, but with a new vision of God who spoke out of the whirlwind to challenge the inadequacy of every human attempt to state how God works and to discredit every human effort to define the holy. The voice of God reminded Job that the human mind cannot embrace the reality of God. "Where were you when the foundations of the word were laid?" The ways of the divine are not the ways of the human. That is always the fatally wrong theological assumption.
Religion at its core is based on the arrogance of believing that human beings can not only discern the ways of God, but they can also act in such a way as to control the actions of God. The human sense of fairness is read into the understanding of God. The human attempt to control human behavior reinforces the common theological wisdom that expresses itself in a reward and punishment mentality. Heaven and hell are nothing more than the assertion that the mind of God, as we human beings have created it, is still operating to reward or punish us after our deaths. Religion almost inevitably creates God in the image of the human being and then tries to force reality into that frame of reference. That is why there is no religious system that is eternal. That is why when human experience can no longer be interpreted adequately inside the traditional religious framework, the framework itself begins to die.
The death of a religious system is never easy. The fear engendered by the loss of religion, or even what we think of as the death of God, engulfs human life in a sea of potential meaninglessness. Such a death always produces emotional denial or fundamentalist fervor; a killing hostility directed toward that which or those who have shattered our religious delusions. It also, however, always produces emancipation from the evils of religion that many people welcome. It is the evils of religion that force us either into a new religious oppression or the building of a new secular city. The struggle to find a new alternative, however, also stretches our consciousness into new dimensions of what it means to be human and that is where hope is born.
Job resisted the theological conclusions of his day. Job refused to let his experience be interpreted by the categories of the past. He held on until the birth of a new consciousness engulfed him. Job is thus an icon through which we can see the meaning of a profound religious paradigm shift.
Today we are experiencing exactly that sort of paradigm shift. Our experience has rendered the religious answers of yesterday to be inoperative. The defenders of the inadequate answers of the past are anxious. The critics of those answers feel a new freedom. The God of yesterday dies as we struggle to view the birth of the God of tomorrow. Job is thus an eternal symbol of that eternal human struggle.

~ John Shelby Spong

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thankfulttt said:

If you believe that God was referring to Elihu in Job 38:2 you stand with a very small crowd. You also have to ignore the first verse, and the third verse, as well as the content of the chapter. It is Job that is without knowledge, as God demands of Job an answer for his words without knowledge.

Elihu said, Job 33:6 "I am according to your wish in God's place, I also am formed out of the clay."

Eliphaz, Job's best friend paraphrased the first two beatitudes, and Paul quoted some of his words as scripture.

It was only after Job started cursing, that his three friends became upset with him.

The three friends never charged God foolishly as Job did.

You are correct that you have to read the entire book to correctly understand it.

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thankfulttt said:

Elihu and his role in the book of Job


Elihu shows up on the scene unannounced, and unrecorded as to his relationship with Job. Elihu shows up in his wrath, as stated in Job 32:2. Why, because Job justified himself rather than God. Again this is the heart of this book, Job exalting himself above God. Elihu is apportioned six whole chapters to himself, which when considered is quite significant to the book as a whole.

Some believe that Elihu is a brash young man that speaks on his own behalf, but those that do, do it in the defense of Job, because Elihu says Job is wicked, and they do not believe that to be the case. When they take that stance they ignore several things. First, that Elihu claimed to be standing in the place of God, as a mediator, made of clay due to Job’s request of God. In which case, he would not be a brash young man, but rather a liar if it were not true. Second, that which God says later to Job has already been said by Elihu. God mimics the speech of Elihu.

God mirrowing the speech of Elihu.


Elihu said, “Job justified himself rather than God.” (Job 32:2)

Elihu said, “Think this to be right, that you said, My righteousness is more than God’s?” (Job 35:2)


God said, “Will you also disannul my judgment? Will you condemn me, that you may be righteous?” (Job 40:8)


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Elihu said, “His wrath was kindled against the three friends because they had found no answer, and yet condemned Job.” (Job 32:3)


God said, “--, My wrath is kindled against thee (Eliphaz), and against thy two friends, for you have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.” (Job 42:7)


Upon examination of these two statements you will find that they are much more similar then what they first appear. Both Elihu’s wrath and God’s wrath is directed at the three friends. Elihu said the friends had not found the answer, and God said the friends have not spoken of me right. If the friends had found the answer then they would have spoken that which is right concerning God. The difference between the two statements lies in the fact that Job had not spoken right at the time that Elihu makes his statement, but by the time God speaks, Job has spoken that which is right concerning God. Job had repented and put on God’s robe of righteousness in place of his own righteousness.


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Elihu said, “Job has spoken without knowledge, and his words were without wisdom.” (Job 34:35)


God said, Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, “Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?” (Job 38:1-2)


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Elihu said, “Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.” (Job 34:12)

Elihu said, “For he added rebellion unto his sin, he clappeth his hands among us, and multiplieth his words against God.” (Job 34:37)


God said, “Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? He that reproveth God, let him answer it.” (Job 40:2)


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Elihu said, “If thou can answer me, set your words in order before me, stand up.” (Job 33:5)


God said, “Gird up now your loins like a man; for I will demand of you, and answer thou me.” (Job 38:3)


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