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Why Job suffered.

Discussion in 'Exposition & Bible Study' started by thankfulttt, May 8, 2018.

  1. Halbhh

    Halbhh The wonder and awe of "all things" Supporter

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    Hmmm...

    At this site all translations:
    Job 1:11 But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."

    Job 2:5 But now stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse you to your face."

    Are most all translations wrong?
     
  2. thankfulttt

    thankfulttt Member

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    No the translations are not wrong. To not bless God is to curse God. It is the equivalent of saying Johnny is bad, when you could have said Johnny is not good. They both have basically the same meaning.
     
  3. Halbhh

    Halbhh The wonder and awe of "all things" Supporter

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    I don't think not saying blessing is a curse. Job refused to curse God and instead did actually curse the day he himself had been born.
    Job 2:9 His wife said to him, "Are you still maintaining your integrity? Curse God and die!"
    ...
    Job 3:1 After this, Job opened his mouth and cursed the day of his birth.
     
  4. thankfulttt

    thankfulttt Member

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    Of the 330 times "barak" occurs in the KJB it is only translated curse four times. And they all occur in the first two chapters of Job. 302 times it is translated bless. The first time it is used in Job it occurs as bless not(barak lo). Hebrew words that occur in the negative are often on a sliding scale. The translators chose curse for 'bless not'. Compare the two tests, and ask yourself why Job did not bless God the second time.
     
  5. Halbhh

    Halbhh The wonder and awe of "all things" Supporter

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    Ok, consider then the next verse after
    Job 2:9 His wife said to him, "Are you still maintaining your integrity? Curse God and die!"

    Which says --
    Job 2:10 He replied, "You are talking like a foolish woman. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?" In all this, Job did not sin in what he said.

    It says Job still did not sin with his lips.
    This is after the 2nd time Satan attacks him.
     
  6. icxn

    icxn Bραδύγλωσσος αἰπόλος μαθητεύων κνίζειν συκάμινα

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    Job suffered so that his virtue might be made manifest and in order to be an example of patience for all of us.
     
  7. Micah888

    Micah888 Well-Known Member

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    Why are you so keen to present Job in a bad light, when God consistently presents him in a favorable light? What's your agenda?

    Also Christians should note that Hyper Grace preachers also try to present Job in a bad light, since the whole narrative of Job contradicts their false doctrines.

    But God singled out Job outside of the book of Job as a paragon of righteousness:

    EZEKIEL 14
    12 The word of the LORD came again to me, saying,

    13 Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it:

    14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

    15 If I cause noisome beasts to pass through the land, and they spoil it, so that it be desolate, that no man may pass through because of the beasts:

    16 Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters; they only shall be delivered, but the land shall be desolate.

    17 Or if I bring a sword upon that land, and say, Sword, go through the land; so that I cut off man and beast from it:

    18 Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters, but they only shall be delivered themselves.

    19 Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast:

    20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall butdeliver their own souls by their righteousness.

    21 For thus saith the Lord GOD; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?

    22 Yet, behold, therein shall be left a remnant that shall be brought forth,both sons and daughters: behold, they shall come forth unto you, and ye shall see their way and their doings: and ye shall be comforted concerning the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, even concerning all that I have brought upon it.

    23 And they shall comfort you, when ye see their ways and their doings: and ye shall know that I have not done without cause all that I have done in it, saith the Lord GOD.
     
  8. thankfulttt

    thankfulttt Member

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    You are absolutely right that Job did not sin with his lips. If you lay the two tests side by side you will find that they are presented identically, line for line, except where there was an actual difference. The differences are clear. First test Job blessed God. Second test Job did not bless God. After the first test God declared Job blameless and upright. After the second test God did not declare Job blameless and upright. After the first test it was stated that Job neither sinned, nor charged God foolishly. After the second test Job was limited to not sinning with his lips. It is informing to hear Job say his children may have cursed God in their hearts. Where was Job's heart when he did not bless God? What is evident is that Job commenced sinning shortly after the second test.

    After the first test Job did not charge God foolishly. But at some point after the second test Job did charge God foolishly. God charged Job with striving with him, instructing him, reproving him, annulling God's judgment, and condemning God that Job might be righteous. God also asked Job if he was going to keep the king over all the children of pride for a servant forever. Those are not words meant for a just and upright man.

    Isa 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

    Notice after the second test, Job 2:8 "And he took him a potsherd to scrape himself withal; and he sat down among the ashes."

    A potsherd is a vessel of clay that had to be broken, because it contained sin. Law of the sin offering(Leviticus 6:25-28).

    When you see Job scraping himself with a potsherd, you have the picture God presents in Isaiah 45:9.
     
  9. thankfulttt

    thankfulttt Member

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    When you read Job chapters 40-41 it becomes obvious your statement is not sound.
     
  10. Micah888

    Micah888 Well-Known Member

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    Even after I quoted from Ezekiel?
     
  11. thankfulttt

    thankfulttt Member

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    Yes even after you quoted from Ezekiel.

    The picture we are given in Job is of a righteous man, clothed in his own righteousness. Who in his own pride exalts his righteousness over God's righteousness. God said, "Will you condemn me that you may be righteous?" Elihu said, "Think this to be right, that you said, You said, 'My righteousness is more than God's'?

    Ezekiel 33:13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

    God charged Job with striving with him, instructing him, reproving him, and exalting himself over God. It becomes obvious that Job was no longer upright.

    Paul said,

    Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

    Job had been clothed in his own righteousness, but in the end he repents, and trades his righteousness for God's righteousness.

    Isaiah 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

    The wedding guests at the bridegroom's wedding will have put on God's robes of righteousness. Job discarded his robe of righteousness, and put on God's righteousness at the end of the book, when he declared he was vile.

    When Ezekiel pointed to Job's righteousness it was the robe Job put on that had come from God.

    Jeremiah 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
     
  12. Halbhh

    Halbhh The wonder and awe of "all things" Supporter

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    The reason after the 2nd test initial part of Job losing health that God did not yet say (until later) how Job was pleasing (not soon as you looked for), is because there was nothing left Satan could do, since Job's life was to be spared. Also, the full test was time. That Job must endure this lengthy days of time suffering without relief.

    Time, days on end. That's the full test. Not like the first test.

    Worse in a way.

    Could Job endure?

    And all the while, after the first 7 days, then his "friends" piled on, judging him, suggesting his guilt.

    On and on.....

    That was the full test, through until chapter 38 (if i remember), then God finally speaks to all five.

    And of the five only Job is relatively guiltless, though none were wise enough of the five to understand fully, as you learn if you read fully with listening through to the last chapter. Don't miss details in that last chapter.

    The last chapter is central, crucial, the real outcome!

    We all must listen and let go of ideas. We want not our own ideas, but we want to hear God's teaching instead.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2018
  13. thankfulttt

    thankfulttt Member

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    You have not answered how a man could reprove God, disannul God's judgment, exalt their own righteousness above God's, take Satan for a servant, declare that God would laugh at the trial of the innocent, and still be righteous.

    You have not commented on the four chapters dedicated to Elihu. Elihu was the judge Job asked God for. A man of clay who would not make him afraid. Elihu found Job guilty.

    God only removed Job's captivity after Job prayed for his three friends. Which is another thing Job prayed for, that a man might pray for him. God gave Job the opportunity to pray for his friends.

    The only thing the three friends were guilty of was not knowing the answer. That you have to put on God's righteousness, because your own is as filthy rags. Job recognized this when he said he was vile, and abhorred himself.

    Yes, the last chapter is the most important, because Job removed his own robe of righteousness, and put on God's. Salvation came, and all things became new.

    brother in Christ
     
  14. Halbhh

    Halbhh The wonder and awe of "all things" Supporter

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    Elihu is (guessing about Job, and) the one talking just before God intervenes and says:

    “Who is this that obscures my plans
    with words without knowledge?"


    While addressed to all five of them, still it was Elihu who has just finished speaking "words without knowledge".

    See? You do not want to rely on Elihu or any other the other 3 friends of Job -- because they are the unwise and non understanding, even moreso then the less offensive Job.

    See the way to read Job is with listening, fully, as you read, expecting not to hear your own ideas confirmed, but instead trying earnestly to learn new things. That's the humble listening we all need when we read, and it makes us read through books fully -- as a whole thing, instead of only passages or only verses -- in order to gain from the words in a student way, so that we are the students and the Word is the teacher. Instead of us instructing, the scripture does the instructing, and we want to be silent and truly listening.

    Even more -- none can get the ultimate meanings in the Book of Job well with our own ideas and selected passages or verses.

    Only full reading with a true listening can help us learn the messages.

    For example, one of the most astoundingly wonderful moments in all of the Old Testament occurs near the middle of Job, and how can a person really gain this wonderful jewel unless they are reading through with true listening.

    It's humble, and that's the only way we truly gain the riches.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2018
  15. JackRT

    JackRT Flat earther waking up ... Supporter

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    Here is an interesting take on this topic by a well known Christian writer:

     
  16. thankfulttt

    thankfulttt Member

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    If you believe that God was referring to Elihu in Job 38:2 you stand with a very small crowd. You also have to ignore the first verse, and the third verse, as well as the content of the chapter. It is Job that is without knowledge, as God demands of Job an answer for his words without knowledge.

    Elihu said, Job 33:6 "I am according to your wish in God's place, I also am formed out of the clay."

    Eliphaz, Job's best friend paraphrased the first two beatitudes, and Paul quoted some of his words as scripture.

    It was only after Job started cursing, that his three friends became upset with him.

    The three friends never charged God foolishly as Job did.

    You are correct that you have to read the entire book to correctly understand it.
     
  17. thankfulttt

    thankfulttt Member

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    Well written, but full of holes. He never addresses Job exalting his own righteousness over God's righteousness. That is what Satan was guilty of. Nor does he address Elihu, the only one in the story who's father is recorded. Elihu was Job's mediator, and he was given 6 whole chapters devoted to him.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2018
  18. Halbhh

    Halbhh The wonder and awe of "all things" Supporter

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    No, as I said above in that post you took that bit from -- God was addressing all five. Of course in this Job is central (as the only one with some partial good wisdom Job listens better, instead of being entirely in the wrong like the others) but all are being addressed. (You can't learn this without full reading though)

    I don't blame you for not reading what I wrote.

    But you will not gain from Job unless you read it fully through without an agenda, truly listening.
     
  19. thankfulttt

    thankfulttt Member

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    Elihu and his role in the book of Job


    Elihu shows up on the scene unannounced, and unrecorded as to his relationship with Job. Elihu shows up in his wrath, as stated in Job 32:2. Why, because Job justified himself rather than God. Again this is the heart of this book, Job exalting himself above God. Elihu is apportioned six whole chapters to himself, which when considered is quite significant to the book as a whole.

    Some believe that Elihu is a brash young man that speaks on his own behalf, but those that do, do it in the defense of Job, because Elihu says Job is wicked, and they do not believe that to be the case. When they take that stance they ignore several things. First, that Elihu claimed to be standing in the place of God, as a mediator, made of clay due to Job’s request of God. In which case, he would not be a brash young man, but rather a liar if it were not true. Second, that which God says later to Job has already been said by Elihu. God mimics the speech of Elihu.

    God mirrowing the speech of Elihu.


    Elihu said, “Job justified himself rather than God.” (Job 32:2)

    Elihu said, “Think this to be right, that you said, My righteousness is more than God’s?” (Job 35:2)


    God said, “Will you also disannul my judgment? Will you condemn me, that you may be righteous?” (Job 40:8)


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Elihu said, “His wrath was kindled against the three friends because they had found no answer, and yet condemned Job.” (Job 32:3)


    God said, “--, My wrath is kindled against thee (Eliphaz), and against thy two friends, for you have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.” (Job 42:7)


    Upon examination of these two statements you will find that they are much more similar then what they first appear. Both Elihu’s wrath and God’s wrath is directed at the three friends. Elihu said the friends had not found the answer, and God said the friends have not spoken of me right. If the friends had found the answer then they would have spoken that which is right concerning God. The difference between the two statements lies in the fact that Job had not spoken right at the time that Elihu makes his statement, but by the time God speaks, Job has spoken that which is right concerning God. Job had repented and put on God’s robe of righteousness in place of his own righteousness.


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Elihu said, “Job has spoken without knowledge, and his words were without wisdom.” (Job 34:35)


    God said, Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, “Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?” (Job 38:1-2)


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Elihu said, “Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.” (Job 34:12)

    Elihu said, “For he added rebellion unto his sin, he clappeth his hands among us, and multiplieth his words against God.” (Job 34:37)


    God said, “Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? He that reproveth God, let him answer it.” (Job 40:2)


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Elihu said, “If thou can answer me, set your words in order before me, stand up.” (Job 33:5)


    God said, “Gird up now your loins like a man; for I will demand of you, and answer thou me.” (Job 38:3)


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     
  20. Halbhh

    Halbhh The wonder and awe of "all things" Supporter

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    To read scripture in the way that gains the most treasure, I don't want to be the one proving a doctrine. I don't want to be the one talking, but instead the one listening.

    We must put aside doctrines -- right or wrong or chancy -- put them aside and try to not think of them, and truly listen instead.

    This will make us want to read fully through a book for its own sake.

    This way we learn more, deeper things, as we read again (even a 3rd or 5th time).

    You'll be able to gain one or two of the great jewels in the Book of Job this way.

    It's even more crucial of course when we read in the New Testament, but in the Old Testament this same rule applies -- the humble listener is rewarded. That means full reading through without distracting agendas or ideas, but instead expecting to learn new things.



     
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