Why Jews Reject Jesus

[Trish1947]

Shalom Trish. Torah, as you are thinking of it, may not have been involved in your coming to faith in Messiah. And Torah, as you are thinking of it, may not have had a thing to do with your acceptance of the gift of salvation

Well the laws of God we're in effect in the universe even before the Ten Comandments we're given. There was 8 people that new Gods laws in their hearts before the earth was flooded. There was some people that had knowledge of Gods laws before he distroyed Sodom and Gahmorra, right? Like I said the knowledge of God is in every man, if he wants to listen.

 

[simchat_torah]

No Torah involved in my conversion, shemchat_ torah

1) It was someone else who addressed this issue.
2) It's actually "simchat_torah"
3) Torah may not have been explicitly mentioned in your conversion, however, Torah is what defines sin.

Shalom!
Yafet.

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Trish,

Yeshua died to cleanse us from Sin. Sin defined by scripture is "Breaking the law (of God). If Yeshua was going to abolish the law, then there was no need to die a bloodly ugly death to forgive transgressions of the law that he was in the process of abolishing.

You are correct in saying that there is an eternal nature to Gods law. If we read Torah: Gen 26 we find some very interesting words about Abraham, who is the father of those who are saved through faith.

[4] I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring* all nations on earth will be blessed, [5] because Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws."

There is a part of all of us, call it conscience, that even the most debased individual contains a bit of truth, enough to draw him toward repentance. Abraham, knew God in a strong and personal way, enough to know the details of his commandments. Perhaps your grandmother had this kind of relationship.
But most of us, inluding your grandmother I suspect, learned what she knew about God and what He equires of us through the Torah. This is passed on to our children by moral nurturing. Yet for the church much of this revelation has been abolished, abolished by the church but not by God. Where does God even once say that the Sabbath is no longer the Sabbath, but that it is replaced by another day, especially the day that all Pagans in history seem to observe, the vernible day of the Sun? What does the Lord Say?

Ex 31: [16] The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. [17] It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.' "

As one saved through the Jewish Messiah of Israel, are you not grafted in to Israel?
Is the Pagan church traditions of Roman Mithraism which entered the church in the 4th century more important that obedience to the eternal father?

Charles In Florida

 

[simchat_torah]

FYI, without the Torah, there would be no messiah.

 

[ShirChadash]

Shalom Trish Just my usual disclaimer, please keep in mind as you read this, I speak only for myself and my family.

Torah, as you are thinking of it, may not have been involved in your coming to faith in Messiah. And Torah, as you are thinking of it, may not have had a thing to do with your acceptance of the gift of salvation

...meaning, if you are saying that you see Torah as only the old testament laws governing Jews, or as applying only to Jews or to people before they believe in Yeshua, then I can see where you might think Torah had nothing to do with your conversion and salvation process.

Well the laws of God we're in effect in the universe even before the Ten Comandments we're given. There was 8 people that new Gods laws in their hearts before the earth was flooded. There was some people that had knowledge of Gods laws before he distroyed Sodom and Gahmorra, right? Like I said the knowledge of God is in every man, if he wants to listen.

Aha -- again we totally agree. And I am so glad you stated this, because I think it is a Truth that so many miss... "Well the laws of God we're in effect in the universe even before the Ten Comandments we're given. " YES! John 1:1, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with G-d and the Word was G-d. If we believe that Yeshua is the Word of G-d, (Hebrew, "Memra"), then we realize that G-d gave His Torah teaching through Yeshua, His Word, by the power of the Spirit of G-d. There is no way the standards of Elohim (Father/Son/Spirit) can be SEPARATED from Elohim (Father/Son/Spirit); There has never been and there will not be an end to the Law of Elohim (Father/Son/Spirit) for believers in Elohim (Father/Son/Spirit) until heaven and earth pass away, and Yeshua said so Himself; G-d's standards for us today are the same standards that He has always had, always and forever in time past and in times to come; and following the commandments/standards of Elohim (Father/Son/Spirit) is part and parcel of the worship of Elohim (Father/Son/Spirit) and belonging to Elohim. Our G-d truly IS unchanging.

There was 8 people that new Gods laws in their hearts before the earth was flooded. There was some people that had knowledge of Gods laws before he distroyed Sodom and Gahmorra, right?

Right on. And the worship of G-d has never been separate from following His Teaching/ "Law". Even Cain and Abel knew to bring sacrifices, and when Cain brought the "wrong" sacrifice, G-d rebuked Him and then later said, "Why are you angry? If you do well, will you not also be accepted?" This implies Cain knew the "right" thing to do, the "right" sacrifice to bring, and G-d was essentially saying, "Hey what right do you have to be angry? Cain, I TOLD you what to bring and how to do this, but you chose your own way."

-------------------------------------

So... if what G-d expects of His people is clear and is in our hearts, why read the Torah and study it, why worry about following it? (This is what we gentiles think.) HM. A question for anyone who is reading... Do you ever need reminding of anything that you should already know, in life, in work, in parenting, in relationships? I know I do. Often. Even in simple little things that should be second-nature to me, by now. Not to mention, needing help to stay motivated to DO those things. What about the command to "study to shew thyself approved"?

And on top of that, something I have been pondering a lot lately: if G-d's Holy Spirit is guiding us and is in our hearts, so we don't need the Word to remind us of how to live, to teach us G-d's standards, and to remind us of His standards and intentions for His children... then why do we see all of these differing churches with teachings that vary so incredibly much, even on the most basic fundamental things about which G-d's Word is very clear (OT as well as NT)? Why is it that every denomination claims that the "Spirit" led them to this belief system, but the very Spirit of G-d simply isn't going to teach people different and contradictory things, contrary to the Word of G-d. And even in individual believers, there is constant rampant sin in our lives but we skip along merrily on our way telling people that we either haven't been convicted of it so we don't have to worry about it, or the "spirit" told me that it's all right for me to do "XYZ" (even when XYZ is clearly abominable in G-d's eyes according to the Word, etc.)....

My point here is that the true Spirit of G-d will never ever convince us that it is all right to act and believe differently from the very Word of G-d, nor compel us to believe and act against the Word of G-d, which is revealed in both the Old Testament and the New. Period. G-d does not change, right? So how is it that we see so many in the "church" holding completely differing views on what constitutes SIN? It's because we most often refuse to go to the Word, including the Torah, to figure out just what G-d Himself says is sin in His eyes. (I have no problem with legitimate differences on doctrinal stands on the "minor points", by the way. I am simply saying that when it comes to sin and G-d's standards of living, G-d is the one Who determines what SIN is, and the true Holy Spirit of G-d simply won't "convict" or teach against His already-given standards. So people who claim that they aren't convicted by the "spirit" that they have to live any certain way, and also declare that G-d's Torah isn't important or needed to teach us anymore... um, HUH? And people who flat-out declare that G-d's holy Spirit has told them that it is just fine for them to live in a blatantly sinful way, um... watch out. THAT is dangerous ground, IMHO.)

This world has thrown out G-d's standards from our schools, our homes (by and large) and from our governments... and there are so many "voices" telling people what is "right" to think and do and believe... and in the absence of G-d's objective Word, we tend to base our ideas of "right and wrong" solely on what we have been taught and have seen modeled in our daily living. So how do we truly know what is right? How do we know that our stand on anything regarding sin, regarding how G-d wants to be worshipped, etc., is in line with what G-d says is True and with what He wants for His children?
Torah. TORAH. It is G-d's teaching for LIFE, handed down to His children for them to follow and everything we believe and do should fall in line with it... which is only possible when we esteem Torah and learn it.

As I see it, we HAVE LIFE in Yeshua (our salvation) and we LIVE that LIFE through Torah, G-d's Teaching for life. "...Choose life so that you and your children may live." Over and over in the Bible, much comment is made that we are to choose life and embrace life, that we may live. What IS life? In the Old Testament, it is clear that the WAY OF LIFE is to walk according to God’s Way, the Instruction He has given, The Torah of God; the way of DEATH is to walk outside of and in ignorance and rebellion to God’s Way, the Instruction He has given, The Torah of God.


From Deuteronomy 30. 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' 14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, 16 in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. "

19, "I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; 20, that you may love the Lord your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them."

And Yeshua said, “I have come that you may have life and have it to the fullest.” What is He saying? The same thing He said when He declared, “I have come, not to abolish the Law but to fulfill it.” He has filled Torah full, that we may embrace it and follow it by His Spirit, according to His example for us; so that we may have life, which comes from following, not rejecting or ignoring, G-d's teachings... His Torah. He even said... Matthew 19:17, "So He said to him, 'Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.'"

 

[Trish1947]

FYI, without the Torah, there would be no messiah

Bear with me on this. Isn't that backwards? without the Torah, there would be no messiah?? Shouldn't it be without the Messiah, there would be no Torah?
The Father, Son, Holy Spirit, "the word became flesh and dwelt among us".
Jesus said, those that have seen me, have seen the Father.. Before Abraham was, I am.

 

[Trish1947]

And Yeshua said, “I have come that you may have life and have it to the fullest.” What is He saying? The same thing He said when He declared, “I have come, not to abolish the Law but to fulfill it.” He has filled Torah full, that we may embrace it and follow it by His Spirit, according to His example for us; so that we may have life, which comes from following, not rejecting or ignoring, G-d's teachings... His Torah. He even said... Matthew 19:17, "So He said to him, 'Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.'"

There is absolutley nothing in your post that I disagree with Zemirah, we see exactly the same way.

Now to get to the confusion that I have, I have read alot of posts on this site that really bother me. About what to observe, what not to observe, what to wear, when not to wear it, what feast days, holydays,traditions to follow, what not to follow, my goodness the list goes on and on.. forever.. what books are acceptable to follow, whats not good to follow, the list is amazing.

I claim to know nothing except Jesus Christ and Him cusified for me. I have to abide in Christ and what He saved me from, and what he saved me for.. Do you understand my point.?

 

[sojeru]

Hi Trish,

No, to say that "without Torah there would be no messiah" Is in fact in great fullness correct. However, half of the story.
However, you did add the other piece.
"Without the Messiah there would be no Torah"

Without Torah there would be no messiah and Without the Messiah there would be no Torah- this means that Torah and Messiah are the same exact being...both are the word of G-D! Both give freedom (look at psalms 119)! Both give light both are the light!
Both give and promise Life to those that obey their commands!
They are the same being.
Torah as we have it in a book it the WRITTEN WORD OF G-D.
Messiah as we know is the LIVING WORD OF G-D, WHICH IS THE SPIRIT OF THE TORAH.

shalom

 

[Trish1947]

sojeruHi Trish,

No, to say that "without Torah there would be no messiah" Is in fact in great fullness correct. However, half of the story.
However, you did add the other piece.
"Without the Messiah there would be no Torah"

Oh, I see your point. Sorry I misunderstood you.

 

[ShirChadash]

There is absolutley nothing in your post that I disagree with Zemirah, we see exactly the same way.

Now to get to the confusion that I have, I have read alot of posts on this site that really bother me. About what to observe, what not to observe, what to wear, when not to wear it, what feast days, holydays,traditions to follow, what not to follow, my goodness the list goes on and on.. forever.. what books are acceptable to follow, whats not good to follow, the list is amazing.

I claim to know nothing except Jesus Christ and Him cusified for me. I have to abide in Christ and what He saved me from, and what he saved me for.. Do you understand my point.?

*nod* Yes, Ma'am I surely do!

 

[ShirChadash]

Without Torah there would be no messiah and Without the Messiah there would be no Torah- this means that Torah and Messiah are the same exact being...both are the word of G-D! Both give freedom (look at psalms 119)! Both give light both are the light!
Both give and promise Life to those that obey their commands!
They are the same being.
Torah as we have it in a book it the WRITTEN WORD OF G-D.
Messiah as we know is the LIVING WORD OF G-D, WHICH IS THE SPIRIT OF THE TORAH.

Amen and amen!

 

[sojeru]

Now that you can see this view. Read Matthew 5:17-20 and wherever it uses the "law" (properly said the Torah) replace it with Messiah.

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Messiah or the prophets. I did not come to abolish but to complete.

For, So be it, truly i say to you, until heaven and earth are gone, not the smallest letter or crown on the letters, will disappear from the Messiah until everything is accomplished.

Therefore, whoever annuls one of the least of these divine commandments given by G-D, in His mercy, to Moses and teaches thus to the sons of men (humanity), these shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven;but whoever practices and teaches to observe them, this one will be called great in the kingdom of Heaven.

For I say unto you that unless the righteousness of you exceeds (if you are no better than) that of the scribes and pharisees (the best of the best of the observers of Torah), you will certainly not enter the kingdom of Hevaen.

If you break even one- you nullify what the messiah did for you at the cross.
With a greater measure of Torah comes a greater measure of Grace. Dont abuse any of these two but with faith establish them both.

Didnt you realize that Messiah made the Torah harder by his Oral teachings of the Torah?
And so- if he made it harder there is also more grace- but it is never to be abused by SINNING (breaking Torah/Messiah)