Why Jesus didn't come to save everyone

[John Zain]

Not sure what you are saying here?
The way I see scripture: God is doing everything He can the help willing individuals accept His charity without forcing it on them. That “everything” includes Christ going to the cross, Satan roaming the earth, some people going to hell, tragedies of all kinds and even sin itself.
Yes, God will not “force” people to go to heaven that would not be happy there, so it has to be their choice.

My computer is broken, but I'm tryin' to participate a little bit via an Internet Cafe.

What do you say to Paul's statement in Romans 8:29-30 ...
the elect are predestined, chosen, called, etc. and glorified.
I.E. God is successful with His elect in taking them all the way to ultimate salvation.
Sounds like these are really not even free to walk away.
Sounds like they're captured to do God's perfect will.
Just a-sayin'.

Note:
Re: the Romans 8:29-30 and thousands of others ...
Most people (the non-elect) are free to NOT believe the Scriptures.
But me, I'm a-believin' all of it.
It's all I have ... and would you like me to start a thread on this? ...
God honors His Bible ... and ... God honors those who believe His Bible.
... EVEN IF IT's NOT PERFECTLY PRESERVED ...

Note:
WHO ARE WE ANYWAY?
Man has always been a spiritual idiot. Hello.
Is he supposed to figure out what in Scripture is true, and what's untrue?

Nope:
Spiritual Truth is only obtained through spiritual revelation.
But, most people think it's through intellect, education, logic, reasoning, etc.
.

 

[bling]

Bling, say you have a parent who loves his child.

The child is running towards some train tracks with an oncoming train.

Which is more loving?

1) To run after the child and swoop them up, effectually saving them
2) to sit back and yell out "Please turn around!" but don't actually go after the child to save them

I look forward to your answer.

It would be nice to have a discussion where we commented directly to things being said, instead of changing the subject.

Your analogy does not fit what we are discussing in that being run over by train is an irreversible (by me) act. I have the privilege and honor of ceasing this wonderful opportunity to show Godly type Love by save a live and maybe die in the process.

If you are talking about God in this situation: death is not a bad thing; in that it is the way the “elect” and innocent get to go home and the way bad people quit doing bad stuff.

If you are talking about “allowing” people to “sin” in the first place the same applies to Adam and Eve as it does with us. Sin is not the problem (unforgiven sin can be a huge problem).

Not sinning is not the objective of man.

Sin has purpose for the non believer and is thus allowed by God to happen.


If you are applying this question to God saving the refuser of God’s help from hell, you need to realize in heaven there is no carnal (selfish) type love and only Godly type Love. Individuals that have continuously, repeatedly and will never change their mind (only God would know when they reached this point) refusing Godly type Love, they would not be happy in a place filled with only Godly type Love. With earth gone (a place where you could have a purpose even without desiring Godly type Love) and not wanting Godly type Love in heaven there is no other place for these people.

These refusers have to go to hell, because it is part of God’s extremely strong threat (God does not lie, so he has to follow through on His threat) to encourage willing non believers to accept His Charity, ASAP. It only works for those that do trust (faith) in a benevolent Creator enough to humbly accept His charity and thus see hell as an alternative possibility.

Again with God, the physical life and death saving scenario does not apply, God cannot force Godly type Love on a person that is refusing to accept it. Saving a refuser from “hell” only to be in a “hell for them” in heaven is not a save.

 

[bling]

You have failed to comprehend The Key in Post #1.
And you have failed to notice that throughout the Bible, God prides Himself in His "remnant".
It's never been about saving everyone; it's always been about saving His remnant.
.

So God has created humans, He is totally not concerned about?

What is their objective while here on earth?

Was God concerned about Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel?

Was God concerned for everyone in the Ark?

When did God stop being concerned for everyone?

Was Christ not concerned about everyone?

Are we not to be concerned about everyone?

 

[bling]

My computer is broken, but I'm tryin' to participate a little bit via an Internet Cafe.

What do you say to Paul's statement in Romans 8:29-30 ...
the elect are predestined, chosen, called, etc. and glorified.
I.E. God is successful with His elect in taking them all the way to ultimate salvation.
Sounds like these are really not even free to walk away.
Sounds like they're captured to do God's perfect will.
Just a-sayin'.

Note:
Re: the Romans 8:29-30 and thousands of others ...
Most people (the non-elect) are free to NOT believe the Scriptures.
But me, I'm a-believin' all of it.
It's all I have ... and would you like me to start a thread on this? ...
God honors His Bible ... and ... God honors those who believe His Bible.
... EVEN IF IT's NOT PERFECTLY PRESERVED ...

Note:
WHO ARE WE ANYWAY?
Man has always been a spiritual idiot. Hello.
Is he supposed to figure out what in Scripture is true, and what's untrue?

Nope:
Spiritual Truth is only obtained through spiritual revelation.
But, most people think it's through intellect, education, logic, reasoning, etc.
.

Romans 8 :29-30 passage does not address how a person goes from being a: non lover of God, not predestine, not called, not justified, and not a brother or sister, to being all these things.

Paul is only talking to Christians.

There are other places in scripture; that tells how non believers become believers.

 

[Skala]

Romans 8 :29-30 passage does not address how a person goes from being a: non lover of God, not predestine, not called, not justified, and not a brother or sister, to being all these things.

Paul is only talking to Christians.

There are other places in scripture; that tells how non believers become believers.

That's exactly what it teaches lol.

the reason we are believers is because we are predestined, called, justified, glorified.

 

[virgilio]

You have failed to comprehend The Key in Post #1.
And you have failed to notice that throughout the Bible, God prides Himself in His "remnant".
It's never been about saving everyone; it's always been about saving His remnant.
.

Hello John Zain greetings,
The whole context of your OP can be summarized in this verses:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, lest his works should be reproved. But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God.(John 3:16-21)

post# 18

1 Cor. 1:18 says the gospel is "foolishness" to the unbeliever.[/quote]

For the word of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us who are saved it is the power of God.

I do believed that the "word of cross" is the gospel, may you please reiterate if what is the "word of the cross"?

Thanks and God bless,
your brother in Christ
virgilio

 

[bling]

That's exactly what it teaches lol.

the reason we are believers is because we are predestined, called, justified, glorified.

You have to read that into these verses since it is not there.

No, we are part of the predestine, called, justified and glorified because we believed.

Yes, God has predestine all those that accept His charity to be saved.

Yes, God could know all the free will choices made by people throughout all of human time from the beginning and thus know all elect people from the beginning. That does not mean those are not free will decisions that resulted in salvation.

 

[virgilio]

Romans 8 :29-30 passage does not address how a person goes from being a: non lover of God, not predestine, not called, not justified, and not a brother or sister, to being all these things.

Paul is only talking to Christians.

There are other places in scripture; that tells how non believers become believers.

Hello brother bling,
In passage Romans 8:29-30 and Romans 9:11 there is no such word that you you insist are pertaining to Christian because while we yet to be born God has chosen already those who will be predestined.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ: even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love: having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved: in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, making known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him unto a dispensation of the fulness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say,in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will.Ephesians 1:3-11

Christians were also called but they were those who have faith and believed in the name of Jesus Christ.

Thanks and God bless.
your brother in Christ.
virgilio

 

[Myshkin99]

Actually, they did choose to believe. The will is active in salvation. It willingly chooses Christ because it wants to choose Christ...

If you go around saying that people don't choose to believe, then you will confuse people who are studying this issue. We do choose to believe.

I beg to differ. If you go around saying that we do choose to believe, you will confuse people who are studying this issue. Saying "choose to believe" has no meaning. You might as well lecture me in Sanskrit or Apache. Choose to believe? Is there a how-to manual? Which neurons do I have to fire, and in what sequence, to "believe" something. Belief is something that happens to me, like seeing the color green. No matter how I might try to see the trees as blue, they're gonna appear green to me. I'm gonna believe they're green, no matter how much I might want to believe they're blue.

For example: For years, I tried to believe in the resurrection as a historical fact, but the 2000-year old accounts of eyewitnesses, the oldest existing written documentation thereof being several decades after the fact, just was not convincing. I could probably round up more people that would swear to bigfoot sightings than would have claimed to witness the resurrection. People have believed in far weirder untrue stuff than the resurrection. That's small potatoes on the miracle scale.

Go ahead and hit me with all the apologetics you have. Despite how much I wanted to believe, I just couldn't. It didn't ring true.

I wanted to believe. I tried to believe. I could say I believed, even act as if I believed, but I did not, and still do not, know how to flip that switch in my brain to "believe this".

Here's the weird part. I do believe The Word. The metaphysics just...seems true. I also happen to believe in most of TULIP. But I have no idea if I am elect or not... So I might be the only Damned Calvinist on earth (that's a bit of a pun, just for giggles).

Man, if I could just figure out how all y'all "just believe" in the miracle-stuff. If I could do that, things would be great. How do you do it?

I think maybe y'all have different brains than I do. Maybe mine is broken.

 

[Viren]

This verse seems to indicate God desires all to be saved.

1 Timothy 2:3-4
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

 

[virgilio]

This verse seems to indicate God desires all to be saved.

1 Timothy 2:3-4
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Hi brother Viren,
Correct. For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:40)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, lest his works should be reproved. But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God. (John 3:16-21 )

That is the reason why not all will be saved by Jesus because they chose the darkness and not the light.

Thanks and God bless.
your brother in Christ.
virgilio

 

[billybtennessee]

To me brother, to allow something to happen is the same as sovereignly decreeing that it happen.

I really don't see any difference.

Say you merely allow someone to accept Christ.

Well, as the source of life and everything, you are the one that

1) made the person be in the specific place at the specific time
2) also made sure that the evangelist was in the specific place or time
3) made sure both were born in the same time frame in the context of human history
4) made sure to keep men both alive and safe up until the date of the gospel being preached

You see, this list could go on forever. God is who is governing everything to work it all out according to his will.

The longer this list gets, the more it starts looking God doesn't merely "allow" stuff to happen, but that he decrees that it should happen, thus it happens.

Notice, the human volition is still working in this scenario. I am not saying that men don't make choices. I am saying that when they make choices, they are merely only fulfilling the plan and purpose that God has already decided. (Example Acts 4:27-28)

In this way I believe it is consistent to say that man's will and God's sovereignty work together.

Something both and every side can agree on, finally. The same can be said for those who are always present in that list, as "the human volition is still working in this scenario", and do not will to accept. Same message. Same opportunity. Same offer. A 'few' count the cost, and willingly come. The 'many' love darkness more than light, and reject the light. Love compels us to come, or to reject. One loves the light and wants to come. One loves the darkness more than the light, and does not. Both fulfilling Gods plan and purpose.

"In this way I believe it is consistent to say that man's will and Gods sovereignity work together."

Yes, it is. Some are willing, most are not. And let us not ignore those that scripture says will turn away from truth, and forsake the right way. Some will suffer shipwreck. Some are self-seeking and only use the name of Christ for personal motives, or gain. Many will say in that day that they have done many marvelous works in His name, but Jesus Christ never knew them, as they were not 'doers', Matt. 7:20-27. But always, "man's will and Gods sovereignity work together". Finally. Thanks.

 

[Viren]

There are 2 truths.

1. We're sinners
2. God forgives us

For many the second is harder to accept so they depend on their "marvelous works" for justification instead of Christ.

Doing the will of God is beholding the son and believeing on him.

 

[bling]

Hello brother bling,
In passage Romans 8:29-30 and Romans 9:11 there is no such word that you you insist are pertaining to Christian because while we yet to be born God has chosen already those who will be predestined.

Christians were also called but they were those who have faith and believed in the name of Jesus Christ.

Thanks and God bless.
your brother in Christ.
virgilio

Yes, God predestined and promises (planned from the beginning to give a ton of stuff for some people and not other people, so what just fair Loving consistent method did God use to determine which ones get these gifts and which ones would not get these gifts is the question?

It appears that God “predestined” to give these gifts to those that would humbly accept them by humbly accepting his “help”/charity (invitation).

 

[virgilio]

Yes, God predestined and promises (planned from the beginning to give a ton of stuff for some people and not other people, so what just fair Loving consistent method did God use to determine which ones get these gifts and which ones would not get these gifts is the question?

It appears that God “predestined” to give these gifts to those that would humbly accept them by humbly accepting his “help”/charity (invitation).

Hi bling,
God is not favoring any individual because God created us equal wherein all was given spirit as per his sovereign plan to create man in there image and likeness. Genesis 1:26-27 But unfortunately the image and likeness of man to God has faltered due to man's fall and their descendant was born with sin nature(Romans 3:23)
Those who were mentioned that God 'foreknow' was the spirit that God gives to us individually together with free will or right to judge or decide for themselves because man has obtain the fruit of knowledge of good and evil. So, if man chooses not to obey God is no longer at the hands of God because man chose to served the god of the world the devil.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, lest his works should be reproved. But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God. (John 3:16-21)

Hope this help.

Thanks and God bless.
your brother in Christ.
virgilio

 

[Skala]

Something both and every side can agree on, finally. The same can be said for those who are always present in that list, as "the human volition is still working in this scenario", and do not will to accept. Same message. Same opportunity. Same offer. A 'few' count the cost, and willingly come. The 'many' love darkness more than light, and reject the light. Love compels us to come, or to reject. One loves the light and wants to come. One loves the darkness more than the light, and does not. Both fulfilling Gods plan and purpose.

"In this way I believe it is consistent to say that man's will and Gods sovereignity work together."

Yes, it is. Some are willing, most are not. And let us not ignore those that scripture says will turn away from truth, and forsake the right way. Some will suffer shipwreck. Some are self-seeking and only use the name of Christ for personal motives, or gain. Many will say in that day that they have done many marvelous works in His name, but Jesus Christ never knew them, as they were not 'doers', Matt. 7:20-27. But always, "man's will and Gods sovereignity work together". Finally. Thanks.

I'm not sure if you really agree billy.

If a man accepts Christ, though he is willingly and freely doing what he wants to do, he is also fulfilling God's plan and purpose.

If a man rejects Christ, though he is willingly and freely doing what he wants to do, he is also fulfilling God's plan and purpose.

We must be consistent when talk about God controlling and determining all things. It must also apply to salvation.

This is why the Bible speaks of predestination.

 

[Deaver]

I beg to differ. If you go around saying that we do choose to believe, you will confuse people who are studying this issue. Saying "choose to believe" has no meaning. You might as well lecture me in Sanskrit or Apache. Choose to believe? Is there a how-to manual? Which neurons do I have to fire, and in what sequence, to "believe" something. Belief is something that happens to me, like seeing the color green. No matter how I might try to see the trees as blue, they're gonna appear green to me. I'm gonna believe they're green, no matter how much I might want to believe they're blue.

For example: For years, I tried to believe in the resurrection as a historical fact, but the 2000-year old accounts of eyewitnesses, the oldest existing written documentation thereof being several decades after the fact, just was not convincing. I could probably round up more people that would swear to bigfoot sightings than would have claimed to witness the resurrection. People have believed in far weirder untrue stuff than the resurrection. That's small potatoes on the miracle scale.

Go ahead and hit me with all the apologetics you have. Despite how much I wanted to believe, I just couldn't. It didn't ring true.

I wanted to believe. I tried to believe. I could say I believed, even act as if I believed, but I did not, and still do not, know how to flip that switch in my brain to "believe this".

Here's the weird part. I do believe The Word. The metaphysics just...seems true. I also happen to believe in most of TULIP. But I have no idea if I am elect or not... So I might be the only Damned Calvinist on earth (that's a bit of a pun, just for giggles).

Man, if I could just figure out how all y'all "just believe" in the miracle-stuff. If I could do that, things would be great. How do you do it?

I think maybe y'all have different brains than I do. Maybe mine is broken.

You are really answering your own question. It is your choice. You say you believe the Word, I assume you mean the Bible. Yet you chose to believe some of it and not other parts. It seems to me the choice you are making is not to believe.

I look at it this way, whether God predestines you to believe or you make a free choice to believe you still believe. You will make the choice.

 

[billybtennessee]

I'm not sure if you really agree billy.

If a man accepts Christ, though he is willingly and freely doing what he wants to do, he is also fulfilling God's plan and purpose.

If a man rejects Christ, though he is willingly and freely doing what he wants to do, he is also fulfilling God's plan and purpose.

We must be consistent when talk about God controlling and determining all things. It must also apply to salvation.

This is why the Bible speaks of predestination.

Actually, I believe we are closer than you may think. If we dropped all the man made 'ism', 'ist', issues, there would only be God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, the Holy Spirit, and Gods word. Obviously, if one rejects the gospel of Jesus Christ, Gods will is to give one that choice. God did/does not tell us who/what to love. Most love darkness, rather than light. So, they will abide in it. God wills all to come unto the knowledge of the truth, but He is still sovereign though many remain and abide in darkness. Salvation is in Jesus Christ, one either loves Him, or they love darkness. Absolutely God controls and determines all things concerning salvation. He made the plan, it was determined and finished, long before we arrived here. His foreknowledge has revealed all who would truly come. Mans will does not challenge Gods sovereignity, any at all. This is where we all miss the point, some more than others.

The only issue we would have regarding 'predestination', would actually be what we are predestinated for. "Good works", created to do them, being "conformed unto the image of His Son" (Jesus Christ). This is predestination, purpose and all. Those who "abide" in Him, will be. A non-issue. The fruits prove what sort of tree it is. They 'do'. A thorn bush, bears thorns. Other parallels are given, but all say and teach the same.

No, we won't agree regarding every point in calvinism. Or arminianism either. Or all the other theological issues we feel, or others feel, take precedence over what is most important. A "new creation", in Jesus Christ. Can't miss that. These find that peace that passes all understanding. They are the only ones who will. God Bless brother, in Jesus Christ.

 

[Deaver]

I beg to differ. If you go around saying that we do choose to believe, you will confuse people who are studying this issue. Saying "choose to believe" has no meaning. You might as well lecture me in Sanskrit or Apache. Choose to believe? Is there a how-to manual? Which neurons do I have to fire, and in what sequence, to "believe" something. Belief is something that happens to me, like seeing the color green. No matter how I might try to see the trees as blue, they're gonna appear green to me. I'm gonna believe they're green, no matter how much I might want to believe they're blue.

For example: For years, I tried to believe in the resurrection as a historical fact, but the 2000-year old accounts of eyewitnesses, the oldest existing written documentation thereof being several decades after the fact, just was not convincing. I could probably round up more people that would swear to bigfoot sightings than would have claimed to witness the resurrection. People have believed in far weirder untrue stuff than the resurrection. That's small potatoes on the miracle scale.

Go ahead and hit me with all the apologetics you have. Despite how much I wanted to believe, I just couldn't. It didn't ring true.

I wanted to believe. I tried to believe. I could say I believed, even act as if I believed, but I did not, and still do not, know how to flip that switch in my brain to "believe this".

Here's the weird part. I do believe The Word. The metaphysics just...seems true. I also happen to believe in most of TULIP. But I have no idea if I am elect or not... So I might be the only Damned Calvinist on earth (that's a bit of a pun, just for giggles).

Man, if I could just figure out how all y'all "just believe" in the miracle-stuff. If I could do that, things would be great. How do you do it?

I think maybe y'all have different brains than I do. Maybe mine is broken.

I hope you find an answer. Here is an interesting read: Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ - Top Ten Proofs

or http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/josh2.html

 

[heymikey80]

I beg to differ. If you go around saying that we do choose to believe, you will confuse people who are studying this issue. Saying "choose to believe" has no meaning. You might as well lecture me in Sanskrit or Apache. Choose to believe? Is there a how-to manual? Which neurons do I have to fire, and in what sequence, to "believe" something. Belief is something that happens to me, like seeing the color green. No matter how I might try to see the trees as blue, they're gonna appear green to me. I'm gonna believe they're green, no matter how much I might want to believe they're blue.

For example: For years, I tried to believe in the resurrection as a historical fact, but the 2000-year old accounts of eyewitnesses, the oldest existing written documentation thereof being several decades after the fact, just was not convincing. I could probably round up more people that would swear to bigfoot sightings than would have claimed to witness the resurrection. People have believed in far weirder untrue stuff than the resurrection. That's small potatoes on the miracle scale.

That's an interesting point.

The people who wrote the Word definitely did believe in the Resurrection, many were eyewitnesses, and frankly, most bigfoot eyewitnesses are at once not credible and not consistent, with the addition that their photographic evidence is largely constructed.

I also don't know of any bigfoot eyewitness tortured to death for a retraction.

Approaching this data with skepticism will always leave a shadow of doubt simply for the nature of historical evidence. But the level of plausible doubt is really not very large.

They all claimed to develop their spiritual positions through the work of the same guy who was resurrected, too. Even the one Apostle who never met Him before the Resurrection.