Why isn't there more condemnation of lesbians?

[Existential1]

What is your standard of right and wrong? For instance, do you accept the Bible as God's word and our standard of right for today?

What would it be, for the Bible to be God's Word?

For some God becomes seperate from the Bible, from the Word.
For some God is insperable from the Word: where what we can know of God, becomes the Word itself.
Where the question of the living in the Word, remains to be answered.

How you read the Bible, and therefore what the meaning of the answer to your question is, depends on how we answer these above questions.

Where God becomes separate from the Word, as commonly occurs, and amongst Christians: then we deal with mythology; which is simply partisan, and can be ignored or opposed through choice.
Where God remains embedded in and "known" through the Word, and has no separate existence beyond this: then this God remains a standard for today; remains a living and redemptive God.

There remains the question: as to whether you read the words of the Bible; or whether you read the Bible as living Word.
The two bear very different fruit: and current Christianity is riven by controversy concerning this fruit.


The emphasis on the male, rather than the female, in homosexual discrimination, and to do with the Biblical: has something to do with the written word; with movment from oral tradition, and the reproductive mediums of its time; to a crucially written dispensation.
Where, in a multimedia age, with multiple and diverse reproduction mediums, this is changing: where the feminine may better re-enter public domain; and lesbian dicrimination might become more equal to gay.
But this is likely to be highly qualified by a general movement away from sexual differentiation as we currently, and Biblicaly understand it.
The current Christian emphasis by some, on enhancing sexual differentiation, is to be understood as reactionary, and unlikely to prevail.

Jesus, by all accounts, while standing on the written works of the Jewish faith, was an oral faith and communion worker.. He spoke to the multitude, or to a group, or to individuals: and they saw and understood; such that they followed him.
Our written and Biblical Christianity often, perhaps invariably leads us away from this oral truth: and in this we lose much; and often risk losing all.
Within oral tradition, it is much more possible to escape from the orthodoxy of a present, and into the truth entrapped and unavailable within that orthodoxy.

Our current time, and even in this internetted chat, is much closer to the oral, that past decades.
The suggestion that we can burst beyond the frontiers of written orthodxoy, and into fresh dispensation: arises now, precisely because we are loosening what binds us to the merely written.
Dangerous times, but promising.

Could lesbians become leaders in this: could that make them the threats, that brings active discrimination; quite possibly.

 

[Existential1]

Do you think there is a sense in which homosexuality is pure? If so, please explain what it is, and what standard you used to determine this.

Yes I do: and I think that purity has to do with not being heterosexual; where heterosexuality has something to do with reproduction, and that of oneself.

Heterosexuals get caught up in the reproductive and parenting role: the needs of family life are what crucially drive the world economy. The world we know, in all its horrors of arrangement: crucially stems from the impulse to have children; then to look after them in certain ways.

Homosexuals can and do go down this parenting road: but it is not an intrinsic, nor a norm.
This frees, in principle, the homosexual from the fruits of our falleness, the societies we have built for ourselves.
What might stem from this, remains unclear: but the purity, of not being tied to what destroys so much, in the environmental footprint of reproduction; is present.

In relation to this purity: Christianity, or perhaps more correctly its Judaic antecedent, can be viewed as a fertility faith; where there might be tension between the purity of barreness, and the emphases of fertility.

Could the lesbian be a pure and barren goddess, in some resurgence of the oral: what fulcrum would this give; and to what outcome?
What would happen to our understanding of Jesus, and of Christ, and of God: in such a femenised, yet barren human context?
Where, of course, we understand Jesus too, as to not to have had children of his own.
If this were developing, as a discernible public domain event: would the prejudice firepower of Christianity, be turned on the lesbian; as it is currently turned on the gay?

Could the current Christian prejudice towards the gay: have something to do with what might be happening to our understanding of Jesus; is how we see Jesus being informed by our emerging understanding of the gay?


I have responded to your posts DRA, because of their consistent quality, and scriptural focus. Thankyou for your efforts in this.

 

[startinover]

Your personal attacks don't change what the Bible says about homosexuality - - "vile passions," "against nature," and "shameful" (Rom. 1:26-27).

And I believe you're more interested in being right than answering the questions I asked you. But still, my goal was not to attack you and if I sounded like I came hard on you specifically it wasn't the goal, I talked about heterosexuals in general who believe that by painting homosexuals as sinners it "saves" them from having to deal with their own sins, which they have within them too.

You quote the bible to prove that indeed you are justified to believe what you do, yet if I quoted the bible proving that you -or any heterosexual- is sinning whenever they have sex with a woman during her period of impurity (period), or when you practice oral sex, or when you have sex other than for reproduction etc etc, you'll probably tell me 'that's in the old testament"...then if it's in the new testament, the reason will be "if it's the marriage, then it's between people and God".

If I ask a person "do you pray before having sex and ask God to bless your coupling" they'll probably won't have an answer because they likely do not invite God in that part of their lives, because they want to give in to their lust as much as they can. So why put a finger towards homosexuals ? God is in other parts of their lives just as well.

The truth again is that all humans are the same. That is my whole point. We're impure and driven by sexual desire. If I was speaking so passionately it was to say that we need to remain HUMBLE, but that requires that one recognizes their sinful nature. Unfortunately, the culture vehiculates this idea that heterosexuality makes one pure (which is a disservive to all) causing people not to require much out of themselves and it gave way to all the abuse I mentionned earlier. The focus instead is placed unto fixing the 'others' (homosexuals).

If people were asking themselves "how does God wants ME to live", things would be much different.

Do you derive some satisfaction from the personal attacks? Does it make you feel like you really are justified in your sinful behavior?

You said I attacked you personally..yet you attack me in the very next line accusing me of partaking in sinful behavior? It's ok. I guess it shows how imperfect we are, and that no-one likes be judged or pointed fingers at for their behavior, because it brings out the worst out of them. Peace.

Do you think there is a sense in which homosexuality is pure? If so, please explain what it is, and what standard you used to determine this.

I haven't yet asserted that since discussing in this thread; rather I proved that heterosexuality was not pure.

It would also be good to have you acknowledge that the Bible nowhere consents to or offers any approval of a homosexual relationship. Can you do that?

I could do that and quote numerous Jesus's teachings about love, the fact he welcomes all, and said those who will be accepted in his kingdom are not who we expect etc etc I could go on...but I don't want to play the game of quotes. Why ? because people want to be right, instead of taking a a hard look at themselves and seeing how they participate in perpetuating hate, whether it would be actively or through their silence. People prefer focusing outside of themselves. If it makes them feel better, then good.

 

[transientlife]

You have to spread some reputation around before giving to startinover again.

 

[jENNIFeR20]

Alright, for one, it clearly states in the bible that " no man shall lay down with no man" ok..??? point being no woman shall lay down with no woman. Also in the bible, homosexuality is DETESTABLE in the lord's eyes. I mean we don't have to be brilliant to figure out, it is a sin. Also, the lord says we are given the right to not JUDGE someone, but we are given the right to distinguish what is sin and what is not. Now, my own personal opinion on this, I believe that the world today has come so far, and fallen off the lord's path sooo much, that no one wants to hear the "truth" and by the truth I mean the "truth" of the lord. Now, Jesus commands that we are to love everyone as he has loved and forgive everyone as he has. BUT, it also says that we are to following the lord's commands. Also, saying that male homosexuality was focused more on males being wrong is border line ignorant. It is clear. There are scriptures to prove it. Let's stay true to what is written. Today's world with all the commercials etc, has played lesbians up to be mere enjoyment. Now, think about it all as a whole, that is man made! As time went on lesbians became more and more acceptable, that doesnt mean it is ANY less DETESTABLE in the lord's eyes. Now, I love everyone and do not run anyone down, but as christians you should stand tall in the lord's beliefes and pray for those whom are clearly violating the word. Jesus pointed out sin, it didn't mean he didn't love them.

 

[The Bellman]

Alright, for one, it clearly states in the bible that " no man shall lay down with no man" ok..??? point being no woman shall lay down with no woman. Also in the bible, homosexuality is DETESTABLE in the lord's eyes. I mean we don't have to be brilliant to figure out, it is a sin. Also, the lord says we are given the right to not JUDGE someone, but we are given the right to distinguish what is sin and what is not. Now, my own personal opinion on this, I believe that the world today has come so far, and fallen off the lord's path sooo much, that no one wants to hear the "truth" and by the truth I mean the "truth" of the lord. Now, Jesus commands that we are to love everyone as he has loved and forgive everyone as he has. BUT, it also says that we are to following the lord's commands. Also, saying that male homosexuality was focused more on males being wrong is border line ignorant. It is clear. There are scriptures to prove it. Let's stay true to what is written. Today's world with all the commercials etc, has played lesbians up to be mere enjoyment. Now, think about it all as a whole, that is man made! As time went on lesbians became more and more acceptable, that doesnt mean it is ANY less DETESTABLE in the lord's eyes. Now, I love everyone and do not run anyone down, but as christians you should stand tall in the lord's beliefes and pray for those whom are clearly violating the word. Jesus pointed out sin, it didn't mean he didn't love them.

It also clearly states in the bible that unruly children are to be killed. Why don't you want to follow THAT edict?

 

[startinover]

jENNIFeR20 that's a great and reasonable post I'm always willing to accept of anyone who points out to what the bible says about homosexuality to base their belief on, especially when they don't come from an all-knowing and self rigtheous place. I think that it's perfectly fine to believe one thing or another, as I have christian beliefs about a lot of things -including heterosexuals and homosexuals- that other people do not necessarly share.

But to answer your point : yes there is NO question the bible says that about homosexuality, amongst the million other things it says, including dozen more things it says about heterosexuality that people do not care to discuss, let alone follow.

The question then becomes : Do you believe the word in the bible is frozen in time, or does God continues revealing himself to us as we speak today ?

Warning! : to answer this question truthfully, you have to ask yourself "Do I follow every single 'rule' included in the bible from the first line of the old testament to the book of revelation?". Or is there any point whereyou find yourself saying: "this no longer applies, cause this was the old testament and older cultures"..or "My faith in God frees me from having to follow this specific rule" or "Jesus died so I would not have to worry about this anymore"

If there's a SINGLE law you're skipping, then you have your answer as to what you believe (on whether the bible is frozen in time, or if God continues to reveal himself to us)

Once you have your answer, then you can decide if you are in your right to break the rules of God, yet make homosexuals carry condemnation for the sins of the world.

 

[Mekkala]

I also think that many straight men focus on the act of consensual sex with other men, not only because it repulses them, but because perhaps there is something kind of attractive about it - but they would NEVER want to admit that!

Either that, or they're afraid that homosexuality is contagious.

 

[jENNIFeR20]

Alright, I knew when I posted this people were going to jump on it. Now, when i stated that homosexuality is a sin, I am saying it is a sin. I have had this battle with many, and my mind is still made. Now, yes, we all know the rules of the bible, and yes, jesus as died for our sins, but even in the NEW testament, it states homosexuality being a sin. Now to ask if i have EVER broke any rules ever about anything thatr has been in the bible is almost ignorant as well. That's what makes Jesus so good. =) We have been forgiven for any PAST sin, and any sin will will continue to make, because we have been sinful in nature right from the fall of adam and eve. That's whatr i meant when i said we are gievn the RIGHT to take NOTICE to Gods word. I am not running any homosexual down, i am stating what's in the bible, so I really don't undertsand how when i say that I get asked." have you ever done anything wrong? if you have then you have your choice". God and Jesus know we will make mistakes. Every mistake we made and or will make was taken up with Jesus CHrist on the cross that very special day. If i offend anyone, my apologies go out to you. But we are here to take NOTICE to the lord's word. Now, when it says unruly children were to be killed, and am i going to go with that to? is really off track. What is your point by that? " Oh well!, there so many things ppl don't live by! meh!" I will stand by whateer it says. My whole and only point was to say that it clearly states that homosexuality is not right. THerefore we are sinning. Unruly children, are not right, therefore they are sinning. Adultery, is not right...therefore we are sinnning. I just find that everyone in todays world tries to ease the pressure of what the lord commands. I have not been a believer my whole life, and you know, I made exuses for everything in the book for so long, but there comes a time where you have to step up to the plate, and take the word for what it is. Christianity is true rebellion.

 

[The Bellman]

Alright, I knew when I posted this people were going to jump on it. Now, when i stated that homosexuality is a sin, I am saying it is a sin. I have had this battle with many, and my mind is still made. Now, yes, we all know the rules of the bible, and yes, jesus as died for our sins, but even in the NEW testament, it states homosexuality being a sin. Now to ask if i have EVER broke any rules ever about anything thatr has been in the bible is almost ignorant as well. That's what makes Jesus so good. =) We have been forgiven for any PAST sin, and any sin will will continue to make, because we have been sinful in nature right from the fall of adam and eve. That's whatr i meant when i said we are gievn the RIGHT to take NOTICE to Gods word. I am not running any homosexual down, i am stating what's in the bible, so I really don't undertsand how when i say that I get asked." have you ever done anything wrong? if you have then you have your choice". God and Jesus know we will make mistakes. Every mistake we made and or will make was taken up with Jesus CHrist on the cross that very special day. If i offend anyone, my apologies go out to you. But we are here to take NOTICE to the lord's word. Now, when it says unruly children were to be killed, and am i going to go with that to? is really off track. What is your point by that? " Oh well!, there so many things ppl don't live by! meh!" I will stand by whateer it says. My whole and only point was to say that it clearly states that homosexuality is not right. THerefore we are sinning. Unruly children, are not right, therefore they are sinning. Adultery, is not right...therefore we are sinnning. I just find that everyone in todays world tries to ease the pressure of what the lord commands. I have not been a believer my whole life, and you know, I made exuses for everything in the book for so long, but there comes a time where you have to step up to the plate, and take the word for what it is. Christianity is true rebellion.

In other words, "cafeteria christianity" - you want to pick and choose which bits of the bible, which commands/instructions, you observe/obey. If that's your take, fine, go for it...just doesn't strike me as particularly honest.

And no, christianity is not any sort of rebellion, true or otherwise. It is the epitome of conformity.

 

[jENNIFeR20]

Ok for one, rebellion, as in, it takes more to rebel against the wicked ways of today's world and choose to walk a life of faith then it does to NOT conduct yourself in a christian-based way, is what i meant. Kind oif like it is easier to lie, than it is to be honest? Well that's what I meant about that. New testament, corinthians 6:9-10, Paul staes people whom will not inherit the kingdowm of heaven. homosexuals is one. This is new testament. Paul also notes that although it may be a SIN to par take in those things, it is no greater than any other sin. When whoever it was said, oh unruly children, were killed in the past, does that mean we do it now??????" well come on . I wasnt saying that. Also noted is marriage is to be between a MAN and a WOMAN. New testament. the only sexual ingagement we are to have is in marraige lead by God. If we are not to be married, then by new testament we are to lead a life of celibicy. Now if new testament says, that the only way we are able to be sexual, ( and im not saying the bible word for word obviously) and god doesnt bless anything outside, AND it says marriage is to be between a MAN and a WOMAN, it clearly points to that behaviour as being sinful. All i said from the very beginning is that it is a sin, and there is new testament to prove it. Jesus gave his life, and how i appreciate that very much. I don't understand how people go along thing." that's why jesus is here! it doesnt mnatter what i do!" He gave his life for you and you are forgiven, if you REPENT. Paul also explains that we are to love everyone no matter what they are and that homosexuaity is not a greater sin then any. I am not picking and choosing anything. Am i not to go by new testament?..

 

[jENNIFeR20]

If someone were to come on here and say, i smoke the occasional joint, am i wrong? I would say the same thing. No you shouldnt be killed!!!! Like come on, I would state the same as i said here. Yes, it is a sin. People have to recognize sin, so they can get it from their lives. Homosexuality is ocnsidered UNnatural, by the bible's world.

 

[mpshiel]

If someone were to come on here and say, i smoke the occasional joint, am i wrong? I would say the same thing. No you shouldnt be killed!!!! Like come on, I would state the same as i said here. Yes, it is a sin. People have to recognize sin, so they can get it from their lives. Homosexuality is ocnsidered UNnatural, by the bible's world.

From that statment I assume then you are an american. If you came on here with a Canada flag and said, "I smoke the occasional joint" I would assume like many Canadians you have been given it legally by your doctor (like some other countries in the world). The only thing "sinful" about a joint is that it breaks the law, it is as morally wrong as jaywalking (As we are suppose to obey the laws of the land and respect those who rule over us) unless you happen to have a scripture showing "weed" is sinful (as seperate from alcohol).

 

[mpshiel]

And no, christianity is not any sort of rebellion, true or otherwise. It is the epitome of conformity.

I disagree - "Oraganized religion" is an exercise in conformity. Christianity - which means basically, "I follow Christ" is rebellion. (All this is prefaces with In my opinion) - Christianity calls us to challenge ourselves, free our mind of assumptions and prejudice, to see people equally and to see them as God sees them, not as they are now but in thier full potential. It also calls to honor and value the spirit over the dollar, the person over the position, to go not where we are loved to care for people but where we are needed. Christianity is an act of rebelling against apathy, dispair, pain and social injustice.

I read about a couple who at the trial of a 21 year old man who ran down thier daughter when drunk, told the judge that they forgave him and that they believe him when he said he was sorry and asked that the charges be dropped against him and if not that he be remanded in thier custody instead of prison. Isn't that an act of rebellion?

I don't disagree that Churches have let us down very very badly. Instead of being out there championing change, they often fight to stay the same. If the 80% of self claimed Christians in the US said, I will not allow anyone to be treated with less than the respect and rights than I have for we are all brothers and sisters - where would discrimination on race, religion and sexual orientation be?

I used to joke to people when going to Easter -- where are you going? They would ask. "Oh, I'm off to a meeting where we're planning on taking over the world."

 

[startinover]

Now to ask if i have EVER broke any rules ever about anything thatr has been in the bible is almost ignorant as well. That's what makes Jesus so good. =) We have been forgiven for any PAST sin, and any sin will will continue to make, because we have been sinful in nature right from the fall of adam and eve.

Note that I did not asked if you sinned, which would be ignorant, but if you broke or overlooked a rule on purpose, and more importantly felt justified to do so because of reasons I mentionned earlier (old testament, does not make sense in today's times, Jesus died for us etc)

For the sake of this argument : let's take contraception for instance which was condemned until recent history : Why? because from a christian perspective, it could be interpreted as a way of 'preventing life from being created and turning the otherwise sacred sexual meeting into a pure act of lust'. Yet contraception is widely used amongst christian-law-abiding heterosexuals. And it's not being denounced by anyone.

So if we look at specific examples such as contraception or others, we would have to admit that the interpretation of the word HAS indeed evolved with time. Thanks to the advancement of the culture (and our growing need to control family size), we have been giving ourselves permission to reevaluate what is said in the bible; in one the basic fundaments of the bible's teaching (which is 'multiply yourselves'). The thing is we have a cultural and economical climate with two parents working that does not allow us to apply the bible literally and take the 'multiply yourselves' rule to the letter. Personally, I have no problem with that, because anythingless than that would be completely IRRESPONSIBLE given our world climate and problems with overpopulation.

We're been given intelligence and the holy spirit for a reason : to use it.

So contraception is a case of us having to ADAPT the word of God to our needs.

Now, does it mean that contraception remains a sin nevertheless? Or does the fact that WE as the people of God have reached a consensus (or agreement) about contraception saying that it's something we need right now makes it ok to the eyes of God ? This is worth pondering.

Now, when it says unruly children were to be killed, and am i going to go with that to? is really off track

I don't know if you're asking "if we make homosexuality ok, what's next..murder?"....but if you do, I'd like to answer by saying that as far as know, there has NEVER been any semblance of a concessus anywhere in the world, or nation of God, to make murder ok or any discussion as to whether or not it was unrightly condemned by the bible. (There is however a debate about the death penalty, which is ironically supported by some christians on the basis of an eye for an eye in the old testament, but anyway). So considering there are questions about making random murder ok, the question does not ask itself. Period.

And also, there hasn't been any question as to whether infidelity was ok or not; it's still called "cheating" and done behind one's spouse's back, even for couples who are not legally joined or married in the church....

The same goes for theft no debate (although the meaning is being redefined with the arrival of the internet which gives us free access to thousand of stolen data, including mp3 we download or trade, photos, articles etc. A lot of people partaking in this are christian.)

However now...

There has been *at least* growing questions in regards to the question of homosexuality, as to whether or not it was rightfully condemned by the bible. There has progress scientifically that informed people about sexual orientation and identity. There has been societal gains obtained from the civil fights of gays and lesbians. There has been cultural benefits from the works of gay artists, writers, designers etc... And we're been made aware of the ways hatred towards gays is detrimental to our children, teenagers, brothers, sisters and parents. We're realizing the scope of the damage this negativity is having on us all in fact.

So my question is : if our society reaches a concessus about homosexuality (which is inevitable in the futur) would it make it ok in the eyes of God...like contraception, or equal rights for women?

Because everytime we as a society and people of God reaches a concessus over something -hopefully through prayer too- the law of the bible does changes. Whether we admit it or not So whether or not homosexuality is mentionned in the bible as 'shameful' (which is an adjective people seem to be hanged up on for some reason) it will ultimately be made ok by a general concessus from all. And there will be a time when it will just be seen as a footnote; a personal opinion by Paul; something that applies to particulary promiscious people...whatever....But it will be disregarded, like a lot of other laws our society have left behind to ADAPT to our needs.

I guess the question is : is sooner better than later?

I don't know...maybe there needs to be more time and debate on the question of homosexuality. Because the world is on its on own course, and we cannot change it one day. And every thing such as this must be hard-earned so it's solid, like women's rights...Possibly the world needs to get a few more decades of horrible crimes, suicides, hatred, war and destruction before people agree "we cannot afford this anymore. We desperately NEED to end this"...then it will be everyone begging to make gay rights more official in the church, and ask for the input of gays in the construction of the world, because a world seen through the eye of heterosexual men is not necessarly as complete and compassionate as we expected.

But we will get there evantually; might as well know that now if you're forward-thinking enough to see it.

The word of the bible will continue to evolve

 

[GMRELIC]

I think it is because alot of men are really turned on about the thought of being with 2 women at the sametime and seeing 2 women together, therefore they think it is cool, but the thought of 2 men threatens them. so they always refer in a negative manner to the men homosexuals.

 

[SallyNow]

Here are my two cents on the original question of this thread (not the subsequent posts)

Historically, male homosexuality has been more public. While it is seen as normal to have two women living together (ie, the two little old aunts stereotype), it is seen as a somewhat unusual for two men to be living together into old age.

Lesbianism is viewed as more sensual. It's more about caring and loving, two possible mothers together. The view of gay males has more to do with sex, power, and sex. And power. It's not seen as a friendship which is sexual, it's seen as some completely different entity. (because for some reason, in today's culture, men can't been good friends to each other. sheesh)

 

[zoe_uu]

Here are my two cents on the original question of this thread (not the subsequent posts)

Historically, male homosexuality has been more public. While it is seen as normal to have two women living together (ie, the two little old aunts stereotype), it is seen as a somewhat unusual for two men to be living together into old age.

Lesbianism is viewed as more sensual. It's more about caring and loving, two possible mothers together. The view of gay males has more to do with sex, power, and sex. And power. It's not seen as a friendship which is sexual, it's seen as some completely different entity. (because for some reason, in today's culture, men can't been good friends to each other. sheesh)

I can sorta see how people might think that of a gay male couple if they I had never met one and got to know them as people and as a couple. Go into their home and you will see they are just like every other couple. They are together because they love each other. True, their relationship will have a different dynamic than 2 women, or a man and woman, but the core reason they are together is a love for each other. I know a gay male couple that has been together at least 10 years are two of the best people you could ever met. They would help anyone, anytime, anywhere without question. They run a Christian based homeless shelter in our city and is probably one of the most devoted and loving couples I have ever known. I don't see their relationship being about power and sex (although that part is none of my business lol). People who say that homosexual relationships are only about sex have never known a homosexual couple, or they just don't want to see the love and only focus on what they think happens in someone else's bedroom, which is, quite frankly, no one else's business.

 

[SallyNow]

Sorry, I did not make mean to imply that the power/sex dynamic was all there was to a gay male relationship. You're right; a real relationship is about love. It the percieved notion, however, that a gay male relationship is about sex and power. That is not the case usually, but that is what the current media and political climate make it seem to be.

 

[Pastor_Benjamin]

Equal among all people who love the same sex