ischus said:
Would anyone like to try and fit Rev.6:9ff and Rev.20:4-6 into their expressed views in this thread? I really am not fit to discuss this topic since I have not put in much time to study it, but I would be interested as to how some of you would view the above verses.
It seems to me that there are "souls" who are in heaven with Christ, yet apart from the body, waiting for the (second?) resurrection.
Sure, I'd like to help with those verses, allow me to post them and address each seperately:
Revelation 6:9,10 -
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Okay, these verses have always caused many problems with NT Christians because they seem to view the OT as a seperate book that has nothing to do with anything - but this is simply not the case as we'll soon see. One important thing to bear in mind regarding the Revelation/Apocalypse right off the bat is that it is a vision, highly symbolic and metaphorical, and most of the things described therein aren't to be taken at face value. For instance, heaven doesn't have a bunch of colored horses flying around, Christ won't have a literal sword come out of His mouth, etc. The souls under the alter are no different; they aren't literal, they symbolize a greater truth.
The use of the word "souls" (psychas) in the above passage is unique for the New Testament, because it is never used to refer to humans in the intermediate state. The reason for its use here is suggested by the unnatural death of the martyrs whose blood was shed for the cause of Christ.
In the Old Testament sacrificial system, the blood of animals was poured out at the base of the altar of burnt offerings (
Lev 4:7, 18, 25, 30), The blood contained the soul (
Lev 17:11) of the innocent victim that was offered as an atoning sacrifice to God on behalf of penitent sinners. Thus, the souls of the martyrs are seen under the altar to signify that symbolically they had been sacrificed upon the altar and their blood has been poured at the base.
In the Old Testament the soul is in the blood. In this instance, the souls of the martyrs are under the altar because their blood had been symbolically poured at the base of the altar.
The language of sacrificial death is used elsewhere in the NT to denote martyrdom. Facing death, Paul wrote "For I am already on the point of being sacrificed" (
2 Tim 4:6). The apostle also says that he was glad "to be poured out as a libation" for Christ (
Philemon 2:17).
Thus, Christian martyrs were viewed as sacrifices offered to God. Their bloodshed on earth was poured symbolically at the heavenly altar. Thus their souls are seen under the altar because that is where symbolically the blood of the martyrs flowed. So, we see, we must not take too literally those images found in a prophetic book and this also shows why reading the OT is vital for a true understanding of all scripture.
The second verse you asked about:
Revelation 20:4-6 -
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Again, we can't take the imagery too literally, and without going into a long dissertation let me just make a couple small points; does the text say that the souls John is seeing are already in heaven anywhere in the text? No. Notice also the verbs being used "
were beheaded" - that is a past-tense phrase - for at one time they were beheaded. When we take into context what is being described here (namely Christ's second coming) we learn that the righteous are raised up out of their graves (the first resurrection) - so those that were beheaded would also be raised up at this time for they are accounted righteous. This is totally consistant with what the OP is referring to - the wholism of the body and soul, not the dual view as was taught by pagan Greece.
If end times prophecy holds literallyEnoch and Elijah will be on earth prhesying and preaching till they are killed and ressurrescted before our eyes.So where are they now?asleep?paradise?heaven?purgatory?
Were the two heavenly figures Jesus spoke with alive or not?
