Why is your belief good for me?

informedforGod said:

1) No other Gods

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I can't but pity the Middle-easterner's level of maturity.
Let's look at it:

There is only one God. No other God exists. Do the Christians know it yet or not? There is only one God for the entire universe. How can anybody worship another God?? One of the childish commandments I've ever come across. You gotta believe brother Christians. Whoever lives in this world and believes in God, he only believes in that one single God. No other Gods exist. If you can't even understand such a simple concept, resist from giving out your gospels to people like me who is worshipping the only God. It would have been a much cleverer commandment if it was like "Do not worship the devil". How crisp and good and how nice it is.

Subordinationist said:

At first, it is eternal life, later on when you get to know Jesus, it is love for Him. In this life, there isn't too much good for you in Christianity. You will be persecuted, you will have less fun, you will experience mass guilt and shame, you will loose friends, you will make enemies, you might be brutally tortured, raped, and or killed. Once you really start to believe and follow the commandments of Christ, you will have purpose, be blessed, fearless (varyingly), and full of joy.



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I don't want eternal life. I want moksha or liberation so that I will join as one with the Almighty.
I got to know Him who showers his love upon me
I want something good for me in this life
I don't wanna be persecuted
i wanna have more fun
I don't wanna experience mass guilt and shame.
I abosultely, don't wanna br brutally tortured, raped or killed.
I am already full of joy becuase I follow the commandment of God.

Me, my parents and their forefathers have already been worshipping the One God and still leading a contented life without getting butchered or mutilated(how do such thoughts come to you? Is there an inherent evil which makes the Christians talk of guilt, rape, butchery etc.?).

So no thank you Jesus. Hope you understand.

it may have, but in those days, there were gods of the sea, and the air, and they co-existed, and were not the God of the Israelites. the commandment means worship none but the true lord. not the god of harvests or festivities.

perhaps it is not such a silly commandment after all. it has to be relative to the time.

Born_to_Lose_Live_to_Win said:

I don't want eternal life. I want moksha or liberation so that I will join as one with the Almighty.
I got to know Him who showers his love upon me
I want something good for me in this life
I don't wanna be persecuted
i wanna have more fun
I don't wanna experience mass guilt and shame.
I abosultely, don't wanna br brutally tortured, raped or killed.
I am already full of joy becuase I follow the commandment of God.

Me, my parents and their forefathers have already been worshipping the One God and still leading a contented life without getting butchered or mutilated(how do such thoughts come to you? Is there an inherent evil which makes the Christians talk of guilt, rape, butchery etc.?).

So no thank you Jesus. Hope you understand.

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so, apart from trying to be cool, and outsmart christianity, what have you actually said?

....

ok, glad we cleared that up. after you've done thinking of why YOU shouldn't suffer, please remember that in the real world, some people are not nice, and some people, regardless of religion or anything will cause trouble.

and some will use a person's religion as an excuse to do so. perhaps you have never felt any hardship in your life, and want to live soley for good things, but for some people, the old saying "no pain, no gain" holds very true.

ahman said:

but for some people, the old saying "no pain, no gain" holds very true.

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Isn't that supposed to be "no gain, just pain"?

well good luck to everyone if it is!

zbignew said:

On the contrary, if you'll note...

Mathew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good
thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 19:17 And he said
unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that
is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Here Jesus said to the guy who called him "good master", "Why do you call me 'good'? I am not good. Only God is good."

That doesn't sound like someone claiming to be anything.

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I think you've misunderstood that passage.

Christ isn't claiming not to be good, He's equating Himself with God.

He's asking a rhetorical question to lead the young man to a conclusion. What He's saying, in effect, is, "Look, you claim that I'm good but you know that only God is good. What does that tell you about who I am?"

Some biblical scholars say all these messiah passages were added in later on by the church to consolidate their power (they needed some wonderment, some miracles). It doesn't diminish Christ's teachings though.

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Not likely. The reason the religious leaders wanted Jesus killed was because He committed blasphemy by claiming equality with God. If Jesus didn't say these things, then there would be no reason for the religious leaders to charge Him with blasphemy.

Born_to_Lose_Live_to_Win said:

I can't but pity the Middle-easterner's level of maturity.
Let's look at it:

There is only one God. No other God exists. Do the Christians know it yet or not? There is only one God for the entire universe. How can anybody worship another God?? One of the childish commandments I've ever come across. You gotta believe brother Christians. Whoever lives in this world and believes in God, he only believes in that one single God. No other Gods exist. If you can't even understand such a simple concept, resist from giving out your gospels to people like me who is worshipping the only God.

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You and I may believe that there is only one God, but the culture in which the ten commandments were written believed that there were many.

It would have been a much cleverer commandment if it was like "Do not worship the devil". How crisp and good and how nice it is.

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There is no moral difference between worshipping another God and Satan.

informedforGod said:

Very improper inference. I generally try to not make specific assertions but rather introduce possibility and probability deconstructing the oppositions arguments.

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Well, let's start simple. Do you think those Commandments violate even a conservative interpretation of church-state separation?

Incorrect translation you say? I have asked two of the religion professors at my college about this subject. One of them knows 17 languages, including fluent Ancient Hebrew. The other is an expert on ancient manuscripts. The verb used in this passage is rasah. An actual meaning for this word is pretty indefinable, but examination of its sentence context in EVERY INSTANCE it is found (Biblically and non) it comes out meaning any act of violence (malice anger etc.) resulting in death. So . . . no . . . my translation is pretty straightforward.

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??

Did you not read the definition of murder? An unlawful killing. It refers explicitly to prohibitions enacted by a government. Again, I doubt that's what God or Moses had in mind.

In general, the use of Ten Commandments in asserting the association between American legislation and Christianity is weak, admitedly. But that was an issue raised so I dealt with it. If you want better stuff, go to google, and type in America's Christian Heritage. (before you complain take note that the reason I do this is because I'm making a claim from "soft evidence" which is a big picture accumulation from lost of different hard evidences.)

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America's Christian heritage and the Ten Commandments-as-basis-for-law are entirely different issues.

Phred said:

In recent years I’ve noticed a trend… seems that many Christians feel their faith is the only appropriate faith for an American.

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Doesn't anyone who holds to a beliefs system, religious and otherwise, honestly believe their's is the only appropriate one?

When I go into court, I want to know that I’m being judged by the Bill of Rights, not the Ten Commandments. Especially when the first commandment is usually considered to be, “Thou shalt have no other Gods before me.”

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Where do you think our legal system stemmed from, pray tell? Murder, theft, etc. all came from the Ten Commandments. You are being judged by the Bill of Rights, but it came from Biblical standards that have been adopted by American Society as moral truth.

Also, what about the universally recognized symbol of Justice; the statue of the blindfolded woman holding the scales?

The idea of a woman portraying Justice dates back to the ancient Greek and Roman images of Themis and Justicia.

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A statue from Greek and Roman mythology is our symbol of justice. I don't care about that when I enter a courtroom.

I watched as entire churches bought tickets and went to see it. That’s fine, if it somehow invigorates the Christian faith, then Christians should consider going. But the news channels all showed, over and over and over again, people taking their young children to see it. Now, I’m not interested in watching a man being tortured. Any other movie with this sort of violence would have been avoided by Christians. Yet, I was encouraged to go see it, and was met with shakes of the head when I explained I wasn’t interested.

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Christians and non-christians alike were fascinated by a movie documenting the last several hours of Jesus' life. I wouldn't have taken my child to see it, but I saw it and was deeply touched. I have no problem watching "slasher" films either. You're painting with quite a broad brush here in not-so-thinly veiled attempt at discreding the Christian faith. Most Christians I know are not opposed to watching R-rated movies and movies portraying violence. And what about the fact that a vast majority of blockbuster films are very secular in nature and depict issues that are morally objectable to Christians? So one film about Jesus Christ comes out, it's successful, and suddenly non-christians are whining about?

Organized prayer in public school. Why not just put an armband around every child who isn’t Christian? You wouldn’t do that, would you? Then why put in place a system that will single non-Christians out for abuse? The Jewish kid doesn’t pray in the morning… he gets beat up. No one is stopping a child from praying. As long as there are tests there will be prayers. Why must the prayers be institutionalized?

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Well I personally do not condone school endorsed, organized prayer. Like I said, you're making blanket statements based upon the outcries of a very small minority of uber-conservative Christians who would probably be better off homeschooling their children or sending them to a parochial school instead of griping about no prayer in the public schools and mentioning evolution in textbooks.

Because I think a monument to the Ten Commandments is in the wrong place, because I don't care to see the Passion, because I don’t want my children praying to the Christian deity… I’m un-American.

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Now you're jumping to conclusions.

Frankly, I’m beginning to resent it.

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So now you're beginning to feel the reverse affects we Christians feel when movies that glorify teens making bets to see who will "get laid" first become hit films and you're a "prudish loser" if you don't want to see them. Now you are beginning to understand how it feels for Christians to know that Christian book and gift shops are substantially outnumbered by porn shops and adult film venues. Now you can sort of understand why it's so painful for a Christian student to be punished for taking a Bible into class.

12volt_man said:

I think you've misunderstood that passage.

Christ isn't claiming not to be good, He's equating Himself with God.

He's asking a rhetorical question to lead the young man to a conclusion. What He's saying, in effect, is, "Look, you claim that I'm good but you know that only God is good. What does that tell you about who I am?"

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I think that interpretation is mighty strained. It doesn't make sense. Why would Jesus ask such a "rhetorical question" that will be prone to be misunderstood? Was he trying to lead the guy astray?

Nope. I think he meant what he said.

I see why many people need to believe that Jesus is more than what he is though. What he preaches is pretty tough: perfect love. It's so much easier to forget his teachings and just worship the ground he walks on. Unfortunately, that's missing the point. Jesus was the finger pointing the way. Instead of following the way he was pointing to, we instead started worshipping the finger because it's so much easier to just stay where we are and just "idol"ize something that's already there than to take up our cross and do the arduous task of walking toward salvation.

Unfortunately, we're using Jesus as a crutch.

There's this parable:
The devil and his friend were observing the Earth and they saw a man walking down some street. The man suddenly stopped and seemed to find something on the ground. He picked it up and his face brightened. He then walked away with a wide smile.

"What did the guy pick up?" the friend asked the devil.

"Oh, he found a piece of truth," the devil said.

"Isn't that bad for business?" asked the friend.

"Don't worry," the devil said, "I'm going to help him turn it into an organized religion."

And there's the rub. Christ's teachings has been commercialized, lobotomized, misinterpreted into oblivion.

fluffy_rainbow said:

Doesn't anyone who holds to a beliefs system, religious and otherwise, honestly believe their's is the only appropriate one?

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Not necessarily. Agnostics can have beliefs, too.

Where do you think our legal system stemmed from, pray tell? Murder, theft, etc. all came from the Ten Commandments.

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That's a stretch. While three or four Commandments do have secular counterparts, those are also the ones that appear in other, non-Biblical legal codes.

You are being judged by the Bill of Rights, but it came from Biblical standards that have been adopted by American Society as moral truth.

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The truth is that Constitutional protections derive from a variety of source, the Bible being but one.

Also, what about the universally recognized symbol of Justice; the statue of the blindfolded woman holding the scales?

A statue from Greek and Roman mythology is our symbol of justice. I don't care about that when I enter a courtroom.

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Well, since Greek pagans seem to be a minority in this country, no one seriously entertains the notion that the government is trying to promote Greek pantheism.

Phred said:

In recent years I’ve noticed a trend… seems that many Christians feel their faith is the only appropriate faith for an American.

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Absolutely right. We are monothiests who believe Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Light and that no one may come to the Father except through Him.

That being said, we tolerate the religious beliefs of other people, but we don't endorse them.

Christians believe all other religious beliefs are in error and that it is our duty to inform the rest of the world of the Good News of Christ's life, death, and resurrection for our personal salvation; we are not to force others to believe, however.

Not necessarily. Agnostics can have beliefs, too.

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Hence why I said "religious, and otherwise". Anyone can have a beliefs system that is disassociated from religious ones.

That's a stretch. While three or four Commandments do have secular counterparts, those are also the ones that appear in other, non-Biblical legal codes.

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Yes, but the legal system had to be based upon something and then progress from there. The legal system has been changed and adjusted over time, but the foundation was the Ten Commandments and that is why you see them in some courthouses.

Well, since Greek pagans seem to be a minority in this country, no one seriously entertains the notion that the government is trying to promote Greek pantheism.

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Sidestepping, are we? It still pays homage to mythology and is a more widely used symbol in our courts than the Ten Commandments. Why is one considered a threat but the other one isn't? Just because the majority of people who enter the courthouse are not Pagan?

For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Matthew 13:15

He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Matthew 11:15



Everyone always ignores my links.



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fluffy_rainbow said:

Hence why I said "religious, and otherwise". Anyone can have a beliefs system that is disassociated from religious ones.

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My point was that agnostics tend to leverage their beliefs. We explicitly claim not to know much of anything with absolute certainty.

Yes, but the legal system had to be based upon something and then progress from there. The legal system has been changed and adjusted over time, but the foundation was the Ten Commandments and that is why you see them in some courthouses.

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Appearing in courthouses does not mean the Ten Commandments are the foundation. Roy Moore, for example, used to hang the decalogue because he was a barely-sane zealot who worshipped a vengeful God.

Again, a perusal of political history readily shows the various influences credited by the Founders.

Sidestepping, are we? It still pays homage to mythology and is a more widely used symbol in our courts than the Ten Commandments. Why is one considered a threat but the other one isn't? Just because the majority of people who enter the courthouse are not Pagan?

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No, it's because no one thinks Greek pagans are substantially represented in the government and the citizenry, thus the idea that the state is promoting Greek pantheism is easily refuted.

zbignew said:

I think that interpretation is mighty strained. It doesn't make sense. Why would Jesus ask such a "rhetorical question" that will be prone to be misunderstood? Was he trying to lead the guy astray?

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No, that's pretty much what the passage says and the interpretation orthodox Christianity has arrived at.

Jesus was the finger pointing the way. Instead of following the way he was pointing to, we instead started worshipping the finger because it's so much easier to just stay where we are and just "idol"ize something that's already there than to take up our cross and do the arduous task of walking toward salvation.

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But Jesus wasn't just "pointing the way", He is the Way.

Phred said:

I don't know of any that have directly said that... what I do know is how I feel when statements like this are made:

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Bush: No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.[/font]

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Do you have a source for this or is this just another of the many false statements you guys attribute to President Bush?

The site you linked to said that this took place at "a formal news conference". If this were true then surely, there must be a bona fide journalistic source for this.

You see, my post isn't about the validity of Christianity... it's about why many seem to think I have to be Christian in order to be considered an American.

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Again, who has said this? So far, you've offered a dubious quote from a biased source.

Yup, all irrelevant to my post. When the chief judge of a state supreme court puts a momument to his particular deity into a public courthouse, that suggests people will be tried according to his belief and not our law.

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But it's not irrelevant at all. Our laws and virtually all of our founding documents are based, at least in part, on these things.

The establishment clause protects us from any religion being preferred by the state over any other... or none.

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Actually, that's not what the establishment clause says.

Commandments 1, 2 and 3 are specifically related to religion, enforcing them would be establishing religion.

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But who is enforcing them?

Again, in hurrying to the defense of your faith, you miss the point. I saw Christians lining up to take their kids to see a movie that normally they would be screaming against.

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So what is this to you? It's no more of your business what movies these people take their kids to see, anymore than it's their business what movies you take your kids to see.

How does the idea that someone allowed their kids to see a movie you disagree with show that you're being persecuted?

You don't think this is perceived as how Christian morality is easily changed to suit? If it serves a Christian purpose, raging violence is fine... otherwise it's smut.

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What in the world are you talking about? What has any of this to do with "Christian morality" and, again, what is it to you what other parents let their kids see? Worry about your own life.

In the meantime, anyone who criticized this movie... Jesus really not being white and so on, was labeled anti-Christian. Not wrong, but wrong with malace.

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Really? Who has said this?

Or is this another case of "well, nobody's actually said it. It's just a feeling I get"?

Really? Wouldn't know it if you hadn't told me. Check here...

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I didn't say that there weren't individual Christians who wanted organized prayer in schools. I said the church, in general.

Notice that First Things, a Christian magazine with a large circulation among Christians and which has an blatantly conservative Christian worldview, does not name one person or group. It merely addresses the idea that individuals may favor it.

Second, notice that the prayer that is being discussed here is voluntary. A student may pray or not and he may pray to the diety of his choice. There is no conspiracy in this article to force prayer on anyone, only to protect the rights of those who choose to excercise their religious beliefs in a public forum.

You may pray, anytime... anyplace. What you can't do is force your belief upon others. Pretty simple. So why do some Christians insist upon forcing children to say a prayer each and every day?

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Who is forcing anyone to pray? Are you equally outraged about the fact that school children are punished or are otherwise not allowed to pray?

Won't see what you don't want to see... huh?

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See what? So far, you haven't shown me anything.