Why Is This A Problem???

Bradskii · Aug 9, 2021

Tone said:
So if you don't pull the lever are you intentionally doing something that you know will kill someone?

Good grief...

The choices are:
1. Pull the lever thereby saving five people but killing one.
2. Do nothing, thereby allowing five people to die, but saving the one.

Tone · Aug 9, 2021

Bradskii said:
Good grief...

The choices are:
1. Pull the lever thereby saving five people but killing one.
2. Do nothing, thereby allowing five people to die, but saving the one.

No, you're not saving life by taking life that's oxymoron

And no you're not saving that one person's life, if anything, you may be preserving it...that life is not in danger.

You're not allowing anything, that's the real point...you're not in control.

Bradskii · Aug 9, 2021

Tone said:
No, you're not saving life by taking life that's oxymoron

And no you're not saving that one person's life, if anything, you may be preserving it...that life is not in danger.

You're not allowing anything, that's the real point...you're not in control.

Oops. Took too long. The five people just got wiped out by the trolley.

Lets clear up the corpses and play again. OK, here comes another trolley and there are five people still on the track cleaning up the mess from the last accident. Do you want to pull the lever and save them but kill the one guy? Or do nothing again?

Tone · Aug 9, 2021

No, I don't want to kill.

Tone · Aug 9, 2021

Tone said:
No, I don't want to kill.

That would be violating a will to live.

Bradskii · Aug 9, 2021

Tone said:
No, I don't want to kill.

Yikes. Another five bodies. They're certainly stacking up on trackside. But they're complete strangers, so who's going to care. But wait, here's your wife and the rest of the family on the track this time.

Want to give it one more go? Do you kill the guy and save your entire family? I think it's probably too difficult a decision. I'll pull it for you.

No need to thank me.

Tone · Aug 9, 2021

Here's a more realistic scenario:

There's a death trolley barrelling down on all of us and we all have a lever right beside us.

Pull the lever and someone else may live, but you'll die.

Don't pull the lever...

And see what happens.

Bradskii · Aug 9, 2021

Tone said:
Here's a more realistic scenario:
There's a death trolley barrelling down on all of us and we all have a lever right beside us.
Pull the lever and someone else may live, but you'll die.
Don't pull the lever...
And see what happens.

Unless I'm mistaken, I'm still alive. Certainly better than being dead like the other guy.

setst777 · Aug 9, 2021

Tone said:
So if you don't pull the lever are you intentionally doing something that you know will kill someone?

Yes. But you if don't pull the lever, you are responsible for killing five people.

Occams Barber · Aug 9, 2021

Tone said:
Here's a more realistic scenario:

There's a death trolley barrelling down on all of us and we all have a lever right beside us.

Pull the lever and someone else may live, but you'll die.

Don't pull the lever...

And see what happens.

The essence of an ethical dilemma is to justify a particular decision. No wriggling out, no running away, no hiding behind distractions.

In this dilemma either way you act will cause death. Inaction is actually a decision to do nothing. Morally inaction is no different to action in these circumstances.

Screw up your courage @Tone and try to make a decision. In your case perhaps you could use Christian ethics to help you to decide.

OB

Occams Barber · Aug 9, 2021

Tone said:
So if you don't pull the lever are you intentionally doing something that you know will kill someone?

Yes

Occams Barber · Aug 9, 2021

Tone said:
Here's a more realistic scenario:

There's a death trolley barrelling down on all of us and we all have a lever right beside us.

Pull the lever and someone else may live, but you'll die.

Don't pull the lever...

And see what happens.

An interesting ethical problem - but not the one the OP described.

Bite the bullet @Tone or accept that a 'right' decision is a major ethical problem - even for Christians.

OB

jacknife · Aug 9, 2021

durangodawood said:
I'm talking about the tired old "trolley problem". It goes like this:

Trolley problem - Wikipedia

Where's the "problem"? Pull the darn lever. Only a jerk wouldnt.

Rule of thumb I've adopted working in hospitals is when things are bad I want to dig as few graves as possible. I would also pull the lever.

2PhiloVoid · Aug 9, 2021

Tone said:
What's kinda sad, but funny is my biological father used this illustration to explain to me why he was in and out of prison and not raising me...

He considered himself a minister to the other inmates. So I was the one person he chose to sacrifice in order to save the others.

I believe I've even heard this as an illustration for God's choice to sacrifice His Son.

I personally don't see the connection in either scenario though.

And you'd be correct.

2PhiloVoid · Aug 9, 2021

...it's like this. Utilitarianism isn't the only legitimate Ethical framework in town.

Time for some of you to expand your educational swath in regard to the various facets of the field of Ethics.

Leave the Trolley Problem for Mr. Rogers to figure out ...

durangodawood · Aug 9, 2021

Tone said:
Pulling that lever does indeed initiate it for that one person.

In the exact same way that by doing nothing you initiated it for 5 people.

There's nothing super special about the initial position of the switch. In fact it means nothing - because its a functioning binary switch with an operator present (you).

"Hands-off" means you preferred the 5 death scenario to the 1 death scenario.

durangodawood · Aug 9, 2021

Tone said:
Here's a more realistic scenario:
There's a death trolley barrelling down on all of us and we all have a lever right beside us.
Pull the lever and someone else may live, but you'll die.
Don't pull the lever...
And see what happens.

I find myself wanting a specific example of this^ so I can understand what your asking me to imagine.

durangodawood · Aug 9, 2021

Tone said:
No, I don't want to kill.

So the additional 4 dead people are the price the town pays so that you can walk away saying "clean hands".....?

durangodawood · Aug 9, 2021

Bradskii said:
....But if you had to physically push someone in front of the trolley to derail it, and killing him in the process, thus saving five, most people wouldn't....

Ah, the "fat man" variation.

Now that one is farcical. It defies intuition so brutally that its hard to put myself into the situation.

Everyone knows in the game of rock-trolley-human....trolley cuts human.

BNR32FAN · Aug 9, 2021

durangodawood said:
Its not about being a good boy and complying. Its about what you just did there: looking the moral issue straight on, and justifying a decision.

Of course I totally disagree with your decision.

Let me use a different scenario:

Youre flight attendant and an accident has just killed the pilot and killed the engines. The plane is on a glide path right toward what looks to you like the most populated part of the city. Youve been taught how to steer a plane in a situation like this. No other pilots on board. Do you try to take the stick and steer it toward less populated area? The plane itself is totally doomed either way. .......Or.... hands off, let God decide? Those are the available options in your very best judgement at the time.

Id try to steer the plane to a place where there is no people if possible. If my only option was to steer the plane towards less people then I wouldn’t steer the plane at all.

Why Is This A Problem???

Old age should burn and rave at close of day;

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."

Old age should burn and rave at close of day;

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."

Old age should burn and rave at close of day;

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."

Old age should burn and rave at close of day;

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