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Why is there a hell?

realtruth101

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God created us. In his image, I might add. And yet, there is a hell.

Why would god make people imperfectly so as to necessitate a hell? Is it to serve as an example to others and scare them into obeying? Or is there another reason?:confused:
Hell was never created for man, but for satan and his fallen angels, who disobeyed God and were caste out of heaven
 
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elman

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God created us. In his image, I might add. And yet, there is a hell.

Why would god make people imperfectly so as to necessitate a hell? Is it to serve as an example to others and scare them into obeying? Or is there another reason?:confused:
I believe hell is the default position for those who fail to receive the gift of eternal life. Hell is death--oblivion. God did not make us imperfect. He made us where we could love others and we fail to love others perfectly and completely. The failure is not a creation of God, but a creation of man.
 
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CryptoLutheran

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God created us. In his image, I might add. And yet, there is a hell.

Why would god make people imperfectly so as to necessitate a hell? Is it to serve as an example to others and scare them into obeying? Or is there another reason?:confused:

According to the Eastern Fathers Hell isn't a location, but a condition, state or disposition. St. Isaac the Syrian, an 8th century theologian specifically says that the difference between Heaven and Hell is how we experience the presence of God, for the wicked this is experienced as intense agonizing remorse, which he analogues to that remorse we feel after injuring a close friend.

Even in the West, Hell is not necessarily seen as a place, but rather as a condition of being outside of God (though, note, that this is essentially opposite of the Eastern view), it's the intense sense of loss of being wholly disconnected from the Source and Ground of our being, Who is God.

The concepts of fire, darkness (etc) are by many Christians conceived of as metaphors, not literal descriptions.

C.S. Lewis, in attempting to communicate the concept of Hell speaks of Hell as a "place" locked from the inside, that is, nobody is forcing anyone to be in Hell except for those that are there. Lewis somewhat famously said that there are two sorts at the Judgment, those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, "Your will be done,"; i.e. Hell in Lewis' mind is simply the fruition of our own desires, our own wills, and he even speculates that from the position of those there it may not even be all that unpleasant and is only described horribly from the vantage point of those who share in the glories of the Beatific Vision. From that perspective, then, Hell is fundamentally little different than life as most know it, though perhaps more dull and gray, it's simply the organic continuation of our current state of existence without change.

Those are, at least, a few examples of how Christians conceive of Hell, it's by no means a monolithic concept in Christianity, principally because our Scriptures say very little about it, and there has been a very broad array of ideas as Christians have spoken and thought about it over the last two thousand years.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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S

Spirko

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RuthJoseph said:
God created us. In his image, I might add. And yet, there is a hell.

And it's precisely because He made us in His image that He takes our transgression of His laws so seriously.

Why would god make people imperfectly so as to necessitate a hell?

False premise. God didn't make people imperfectly (or imperfect, which is what I suspect you meant), nor do our "imperfections" necessitate a Hell.

Is it to serve as an example to others and scare them into obeying? Or is there another reason?:confused:

No. It is for the punishment of the Devil and his angels and the wicked who die in their sin.
 
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Walter Kovacs

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-CryptoLutheran

Allow me to supplement this excellent post by citing an article from one of my favorite thinkers, David Hemlock:

"Isa 33:14-15 describes God as a consuming fire that devours the wicked, but does not harm the righteous. The flames of hell have been described as God's love as experienced by those who hate Him and refuse His love obstinately until the end of eternity (G. Campbell Morgan). This is something different from the purposeful torture hell is often conceived to be. But still, why must anyone suffer eternally? Is the maker of heaven and earth who consigns some to eternal suffering still unjust, or even wicked, as some claim today?

Many Christians such as C. S. Lewis hold that no one will suffer eternity in hell that does not willfully and adamantly reject God and the goodness/love which flows from and is consonant with him (that is the official position of Eastern Orthodoxy, for example). This softens some, but not all of the serious objections which may be raised concerning the doctrine of hell.

Hell and/or judgment with infinite consequences (e.g. eternal annihilation) may both be described as instances of infinite and everlasting penalties for finite and temporal offenses. Who are the offenders? Individuals who did not choose to exist, born into an environment (genetic, cultural, familial, geographical) not of their choosing, and facing an eternal punishment – the possibility of which they were (potentially) unaware. Today many argue a single death for crimes however heinous is immoral. What then may be said of endless agony, of the worm that never dies, a fire that is never quenched?

What if, in spite of all the endless weeping and gnashing of teeth, the inhabitants in hell might conceive their reality to be the better way with only God and the inhabitants of a better place knowing or believing differently? If some individuals would forever choose what harms over what is loving where these conflict (it is impossible to maximize two independent variables), it is not unreasonable to think there could be no heaven apart from harm without separation of some kind. Perhaps the hell of separation, agonizing as it is known to be to God, will be preferable to the inhabitants of hell itself –or at least some of them- to non-existence or never-existence. In such a case it would be preferable in the eyes of the sufferers themselves for God to bring into existence beings who would suffer eternal agony. In such a situation annihilation would be the greater cruelty. Scripture suggests there are degrees of suffering in hell (“more tolerable on the day of judgment Mt 11:21-24; cf. “he who did not know” in 12:47-4). This may clearly suggest degrees of amelioration of suffering by hell’s eternal Caretaker. Perhaps there are multiple possibilities rather than a singular fate for all who stand in opposition to love with annihilation vs. eternity as options rather than a forced either/or. Or perhaps God can truly know that even individuals who would choose annihilation for themselves are simply making a mistake, as illustrated in the song lyrics “you don’t know what you’ve got till its gone.” God could know better. Perhaps the sufferings of hell are better than annihilation, as life in this beautiful, wonderful, miserable horrible world is generally better than the alternative (else a majority would choose suicide). Or perhaps the whole idea implies God is unjust, cruel, and/or incredible as Hitchens and others claim. It seems clear to me that the latter view can no more be stated without a “perhaps” than any of the others named above, though this is all too seldom recognized. Inductive/abductive trust/mistrust decides which “perhaps” we will lean towards, not facts, but all the options above have a degree of “perhaps,” not just the ones that make God look like something less than an Ogre. It must be stated unequivocally that the word “perhaps” pertains no less so to any presumption that a morally problematic situation pertains to the biblical hell. It simply cannot be established deductively or exegetically that hell is morally problematic. And nothing surrounding this issue, I think, firmly or finally rules out a good and merciful just and holy God who well might opt for eternal separation without contradicting attributes we would think of as adequately commendable. We are not easily content to say we simply do not know, and cannot expect to know, or that sources of certainty are unavailable to us. But God has left the details more open-ended than is often realized. He has told us enough to suspect there is a bridge out ahead, and that there is a real danger of taking a wrong road, but He has not painted the kind of picture Dante, the Greeks with their Tartarus, and others have which have so strongly influenced Western imagination. Consider the following descriptions of hell by Donald Bloesch (“Heaven and Hell” in Bloesch, Donald, Essentials of Evangelical Theology, Vol. 2, pp. 211-234):

“While he saw hell as a necessary concomitant of the justice of God, Thomas Aquinas did not divorce God’s justice from his love. The divine love is related to hell for the purpose of mitigating the sufferings of the damned. In his view the purpose of hell is not exclusively retributive. Moreover, it serves as a deterrent to evil and as a basis for moral order in the universe…”

“Man is in hell not because God is absent but because he is present, and therefore man is constantly reminded of his guilt and infamy. Hell is exclusion from communion with God, but not exclusion from the presence of God (we interpret 2 Thess 1:9 as referring to an exclusion from man’s side but not from God’s side. Man shuts himself off from the salvation of the Lord and from the glory of his might, but he cannot escape from this glory (Phil 2:9-11). Cf. Revelation 14:10 which speaks of sinners in hell being tormented ‘in the presence of the Lamb…’”

“The metaphor that most nearly describes hell is not a concentration camp presided over by the devil, but a sanitorium for sick souls who are ministered to by Jesus Christ… His light still shines even in the darkness of man’s hell… We can rest assured that those in hell are in the hands of a God who is both righteous and merciful, and we can trust that his mercy as well as his justice will be manifest among them, though this does not mean final universal salvation.”

“Hell is not outside of the compass of God’s mercy nor the sphere of his kingdom, and in this sense we call it the last refuge of the sinner… only rejection of the grace of God keeps us in hell… the only sin that is unforgivable is the sin against the Holy Spirit, rejecting and refusing the offer of divine grace (cf. Mt 12:31, 32; Mk 3:28, 29; Heb 12:25).”

“Hell will not be seen as an evil, but as the place where those who reject Christ are still cared for by Christ –and not simply as Lord and Judge but as Savior and Healer… we should not forget that God placed upon Cain a sign for his protection, even though he was condemned to wander in a far country… God will punish our transgressions, but he will not remove from us his steadfast love or be false to his faithfulness (Ps 89:31-34)” (“Heaven and Hell” in Bloesch, Donald, Essentials of Evangelical Theology, Vol. 2, pp. 211-234)

“Thou grantest grace even to those who will forever experience the rigor of they justice” –Francois Fenelon

This viewpoint represents the most ancient trajectory of Christian theology and has long been a standard of the Christian East:

“Christ is the judge; and yet, from another point of view, it is we who pronounce judgment upon ourselves. If anyone is in hell, it is not because God has imprisoned him there, but because that is where he himself has chosen to be. The lost in hell are self-condemned, self-enslaved; it has rightly been said that the doors of hell are locked from the inside. How can a God of love accept that even a single one of the creatures whom he has made should remain for ever in hell? There is a mystery here which, from our standpoint in this present life, we cannot hope to fathom. The best we can do is to hold in balance two truths, contrasting but not contradictory. First, God has given free will to man, and so to all eternity it lies in man’s power to reject God. Secondly, love signifies compassion, involvement, and so, if there are any who remain eternally in hell, in some sense God is also there with them. It is written in the Psalms, ‘If I go down to hell, thou art there also’ (139:7); and St. Isaac the Syrian says, ‘It is wrong to imagine that sinners in hell are cut off from the love of God.’ Divine love is everywhere, and rejects no one. But we on our side are free to reject divine love; we cannot however, do so without inflicting pain on ourselves, and the more final our rejection the more final our suffering” (Kallistos Ware, The Orthodox Way, pp. 135-136).

THE NECESSITY OF SEPARATION
The NT claims that God asks nothing of us that does not ultimately boil down to the requirement that we act according to the demands of love. Is this too much to ask?

Romans 13:8-11: Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. For this, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no wrong to a neighbor; love therefore is the fulfillment of the law. And this do, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed.”

“…sin consists in man’s choosing to go his own way rather than follow God. Throughout life, man says to God in effect, ‘Leave me alone.’ Hell, the absence of God, [and the absence of love among the people one is with] is God’s simply giving man at last what he has always asked for. It is not God, but man’s own choice that sends man to hell.” (Erickson, Millard, Christian Theology, p. 432).

“Holy wrath” sounds like an oxymoron/contradiction to the contemporary mind, but it is an inseparable part of the biblical portrayal of God’s holiness. How should a holy God respond to evil? Complete indifference to evil by anyone amounts to moral bankruptcy, but this would be especially so for God. This is widely recognized even by atheists, agnostics, and philosophers who frequently ask “Why does God allow it?!” of evil. God's implacable opposition to every form of moral evil is disturbing and even offensive to so many, largely because this kind of opposition inevitably reaches the human heart that beats within. It reaches into you; it reaches into me. It seems that God cannot win the popularity game with us. If he does not resist evil, he is evil. If he resists evil, he resists us and we resent him for that. God's anger is not the uncontrollable and disreputable outburst of passion that human anger often is, but instead is a holy and blameless opposition to all that is destructive of selves, societies, and environments (i.e. sin). Yet God does not merely desire to oppose and chasten; he desires to heal us. Still, mercy must not be separate from opposition to evil, or God is indifferent to evil once again. God’s holiness is a holy wrath as equally as it is a holy love or it is bankrupt because it is impotent to eradicate evil. Traditional Christian eschatology sees this tension as having eternal consequences. It is hard to see how God could provide a heaven for anyone if it included those who eternally would refuse to turn to evil. It is hard to imagine a heaven with malevolent hatred, eternal strife, jealousy, child molestation, theft, etc. Even heaven cannot be without all such things unless all those who populate it are willing to at least approximate doing the will of God rather than their own while residing there. If God’s policy is merely to forgive and let everyone continue to live as sinfully as they wish throughout eternity, then everyone is going to hell! (or at the very least, heaven would be no better than the present world). God’s call, often ignored, doubted, partitioned, or otherwise explained away is “repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand; repent, or ye will all likewise perish.” C. S. Lewis claimed that in the final judgment there will be only two classes of people: those who say to God "Thy will be done" and those to whom God will say "thy will be done." I tend to imagine a river of tears flowing from God’s eyes in the latter case. Here yet again the holiness of God is often challenged. Especially here! Yet those who know God are more than reasonable to suspect that the judge of all the earth will judge rightly.

“All of our sins send us to hell, but only rejection of the grace of God keeps us in hell… The only sin that is unforgivable is the sin against the Holy Spirit, rejecting and refusing the offer of divine grace…” –Donald Bloesch

“It is salvation or perdition. Salvation lies ahead; perdition behind –for everyone who turns back, whatever it is he sees” (Soren Kierkegaard, Concluding Unscientific Postscript, trans. David F. Swenson (Princeton, N.J: Princeton University Press, 1944, p. 533).

CONCLUSION
“To whom did Jesus address his gracious words of invitation and promise? To people who were obviously guilty –dishonest tax collectors, prostitutes, political and social outcasts rejected by respectable people. And to whom did he address his sternest warning of hell-fire and eternal misery? He almost never mentioned hell except when he spoke to the scribes and Pharisees –the very moral, very religious, complacent church-going people of his day” -Guthrie, Shirley, Christian Doctrine, p. 398-399.

“The NT also gives the additional warning that the wrath and condemnation of God will fall not only upon the outside world but even more upon the sons of the kingdom, those to whom the message of salvation is first delivered. Jesus says that it is the sons of the kingdom who will be cast into the outer darkness (Mat 8:12; 13:41, 42; 24:45-51). Even the servants who have been set over the household of the Lord will suffer condemnation (Matt 24:45-51). We can fall from grace through our negligence and stubbornness (2 Pet 1:9-11). -Bloesch, Donald, “Heaven and Hell,” in Essentials of Evangelical Theology, Vol. 2, p. 213.

“For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?” -Hebrews 2:1-3
 
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ephraimanesti

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God created us. In his image, I might add. And yet, there is a hell.

Why would god make people imperfectly so as to necessitate a hell? Is it to serve as an example to others and scare them into obeying? Or is there another reason?:confused:
MY SISTER,

There is a hell because human beings, created with free will to allow them to freely make choices, sometimes misuse and abuse their free will by making choices which defy the expressed will of God and thus, in their rebellion, willfully separate themselves from God and cast themselves adrift in the darkness.

Heaven is not a place--it is wherever God is present and His will is done.

Hell is not a place--it is wherever God has withdrawn because His will is spurned.

No one is "sent" to hell--it is freely chosen: It is eternity spent in the absence of God and thus in the absence of all Light, all Love, all Truth, and all Good.

:bow:ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim
 
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LWB

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There is no heaven without hell, just like there is no white without black. If everything was white, a white disc would be meaningless. A white disc on a black background on the other hand, and suddenly existence is real.

God has decided that it is better to have the bad and the good, than for there to be nothing.
 
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drich0150

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God created us. In his image, I might add. And yet, there is a hell.

Why would god make people imperfectly so as to necessitate a hell? Is it to serve as an example to others and scare them into obeying? Or is there another reason?:confused:

Heaven is not just a reward and in turn the reason for Hell is not to just punish. Heaven is being in the presents of God. Hell is the absents of God or creation.

Those who want to be with God and accept the atonement provided for them get to be in His presents for eternity. Those who spend this life putting distance between themselves and God can only do so in the absents of God's presents or any part of creation.
which for those who want to be with god is indeed Hell.

If for some reason the descriptions of Heaven and Hell were some how changed in our past and Heaven was a fiery pit (but God lived there) and Hell was what we know to be paradise would you still want to goto Heaven (the fiery pit) just to be with God? Would it be fair for those who did not want to be with God and spent a life time putting distance between themselves and God, for him to drag them to Heaven? (the Pit?)

What makes heaven Heaven is not the things that line the streets or what the gates are made of. Heaven is Heaven because God is there. God knows not all of us want to be with Him so He has provided an escape to an eternity with Him.
 
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elman

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There is no heaven without hell, just like there is no white without black. If everything was white, a white disc would be meaningless. A white disc on a black background on the other hand, and suddenly existence is real.

God has decided that it is better to have the bad and the good, than for there to be nothing.
In the beginning there was God and there was no evil. There can be good without evil. The existence of God is not removed with the removal of evil.
 
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bling

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It is very unfortunate but, I need there to be a hell, so God created hell.

In order to fulfill my objective in this life I need to first sin and then humbly accept God’s Charity in the form of accepting God’s forgiveness to relieve me of the burden of sin.


With accepting God’s forgiveness I obtain Godly type Love “…he that is forgiven much Loves much…”. The problem is I want to try to minimize what I have been forgiven of and have a little “love”, but God placed a huge value on sin with hell, so I have been forgive of a huge debt.
 
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elman

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It is very unfortunate but, I need there to be a hell, so God created hell.

In order to fulfill my objective in this life I need to first sin and then humbly accept God’s Charity in the form of accepting God’s forgiveness to relieve me of the burden of sin.


With accepting God’s forgiveness I obtain Godly type Love “…he that is forgiven much Loves much…”. The problem is I want to try to minimize what I have been forgiven of and have a little “love”, but God placed a huge value on sin with hell, so I have been forgive of a huge debt.

You don't have to worry about falling short of being a perfect loving being as God is and therefore needing grace and forgiveness. Sin or being unloving is not a requirment for being loving. I don't think God created a place for us to be tortured. I also don't think such a place needs to be created.
 
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aiki

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God created us. In his image, I might add. And yet, there is a hell.

There is also a heaven.

Why would god make people imperfectly so as to necessitate a hell? Is it to serve as an example to others and scare them into obeying? Or is there another reason?
confused.gif

God did not make people imperfectly. Through our sin we have corrupted what God made, which, at the beginning, was very good.

Hell is the wage of sin just as heaven is the reward of faith in Christ as Saviour and Lord. God uses both the carrot and the stick to induce us to make the right choice.

The very real place of fire, and darkness, and torment prepared for the devil and his demons and the unrepentant wicked demonstrates God's perfect holiness, justice and wrath. Some would have you believe God's love trumps His holiness and justice and nullifies them. But this defies Scripture which plainly speaks of hell as an expression of God's holy anger toward sin. We see in God's terrible judgment upon our sin just how horrible it truly is. The awfulness of hell reflects the awfulness of our sin. Being so steeped in sin as we are, it seems to us that God is over-reacting to our sin when he punishes it with eternal torment. The reality, however, is that we are woefully under-reacting to it.

Selah.
 
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elman

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There is also a heaven.



God did not make people imperfectly. Through our sin we have corrupted what God made, which, at the beginning, was very good.

Hell is the wage of sin just as heaven is the reward of faith in Christ as Saviour and Lord. God uses both the carrot and the stick to induce us to make the right choice.

The very real place of fire, and darkness, and torment prepared for the devil and his demons and the unrepentant wicked demonstrates God's perfect holiness, justice and wrath. Some would have you believe God's love trumps His holiness and justice and nullifies them. But this defies Scripture which plainly speaks of hell as an expression of God's holy anger toward sin. We see in God's terrible judgment upon our sin just how horrible it truly is. The awfulness of hell reflects the awfulness of our sin. Being so steeped in sin as we are, it seems to us that God is over-reacting to our sin when he punishes it with eternal torment. The reality, however, is that we are woefully under-reacting to it.

Selah.
Hell in scripture is described as a lake of fire, a bottomless pit, outer darkness, etc. but most often it is referred to as destruction and death. Holy justice would not require that we be tortured forever.
 
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bling

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You don't have to worry about falling short of being a perfect loving being as God is and therefore needing grace and forgiveness. Sin or being unloving is not a requirment for being loving. I don't think God created a place for us to be tortured. I also don't think such a place needs to be created.
We might be in disagreement here.

Do you see the difference between “Godly type Love” defined by everything Christ said and did and other types of Love even the Love a mother has for her baby?

Is Godly type Love instinctive, learned or given as a free gift?

If it is a gift when and how do you get it?

How can you tell you have it?

Do you agree with Christ’s teaching “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”?

If you do believe what Jesus taught would it be better to make and show sin to have a huge debt, so once you are forgiven you will Love all the more?

What would happen if sin really had no significant consequences and God forgave you would that produce little “love”?
 
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elman

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Why not?

Matthew 25:46
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Selah.
Because then God would not be a loving and just Creator. Everlasting punishment can be the failure to receive everlasting life. It can mean death as in the wages of sin are death and death may not mean eternal life in pain.
 
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