Why is there a church?

Sketcher

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People should only meet together and work towards reaching their ideals without giving up money to an institution.
You can't really have that and get very far without "giving up money" to an institution, since we live in a society where money exists, and groups of people generally want to do things that cost money. Take for example, the dance club I was a part of in college. Pay the 25 cent dues each night, and you get to dance or learn how to dance. Would you call that bad?

Community and fellowship should exist, but definitely NOT priests or pastors. If one person claims to have a divine connection with God, they should teach everyone how to have this connection without preaching about the bible.
The problem with this is that Christianity runs on absolute truth, and that truth is objective. Therefore priests and pastors are necessary because one person would just share something, another would share something totally different, and everything would be out of hand. Furthermore, people are not perfect. There needs to be an authority figure to put those who misbehave in place. The alternative is people who are strong taking advantage of the weak. That is where sin leads to if it is left unchecked.

The bible isn't what allows people to have a divine connection to Jesus or God anyways. It's a person's commitment to an ideal that Christ would approve of. The bible can inspire people because of the story of Jesus, but you only need to hear the story to be inspired. You don't need the bible.
Churches need Bibles in the same way the US government requires the Constitution. Priests, pastors and elders are also human, and therefore also capable of error. Having Bibles and having them available helps keep this in check. Furthermore, that is also why there are multiple priests, pastors, and elders to help keep each other in check. There must be a separation of people who know their stuff from those who don't, and likewise there must be a check against abuses by those who know their stuff.

My point is that Christianity seems to care less and less about the person than they do about spreading the word of God and making the Church stronger.
The truth sets people free. If people have the truth and accept it, they can be set free. This is the greatest good one can do for a person. Sin destroys individuals, and causes those individuals to harm other individuals. There's nothing wrong with preaching against that.

I think people care more about a divine connection with God and Jesus that can help them make their dreams come true by doing what is good.
And what if being good doesn't pay? What if it costs us? You are not the center of the universe, so who is to say your dreams are even good? God doesn't exist for us, we exist for Him.
 
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firesky112

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The same old answers. The same old "wall of faith" you guys build around yourselves. No one can ever get through to any of you because you're so attached to a book because you think you should be. Why should you ignore everything else in your life and just do what this book says? No one will ever know, but one thing's for sure. You guys are trying to eliminate sin when in actuality you should be living with it. If you can't do that, then you are a coward who is afraid of him/herself.
So much inner conflict and guilt awaits you...
 
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WarEagle

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The same old answers. The same old "wall of faith" you guys build around yourselves. No one can ever get through to any of you because you're so attached to a book because you think you should be. Why should you ignore everything else in your life and just do what this book says? No one will ever know, but one thing's for sure. You guys are trying to eliminate sin when in actuality you should be living with it. If you can't do that, then you are a coward who is afraid of him/herself.
So much inner conflict and guilt awaits you...

I guess that's a chance we'll just have to take.

You know, back in your first post, you said something about the goodness of your soul shining through and I asked you if your behavior was an indication of the state of your soul. You never did answer that and I'm curious to know if you believe it is or not.

So, is your behavior an indication of the "goodness of your soul"?
 
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firesky112

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Yes. However, whether you think they are good or not I don't really care. The reason is because you're a pretender. By the information you have given about your religion I know you have no real connection to God. You do, actually, but what I mean is that you aren't aware of it.

Sure you pray and quote interesting things from the bible you have studied. You also appear to be very intelligent and reasonable person for the most part. The only problem is that you really believe your religion has led you to the light, when in actuality you haven't seen the tip of the iceberg. Praying involves no true connection. It just involves pretending. It's a one way conversation, whether you realize it or not. The Bible has inspiring stories, but the words are just words. Hear the words for yourself, and put into action these words spoken from the man himself!

PLEASE. Just try it. The bible and the church are a sorry, sorry, substitute for what we could be doing.
 
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Whitestone

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Yes. However, whether you think they are good or not I don't really care. The reason is because you're a pretender. By the information you have given about your religion I know you have no real connection to God. You do, actually, but what I mean is that you aren't aware of it.

Sure you pray and quote interesting things from the bible you have studied. You also appear to be very intelligent and reasonable person for the most part. The only problem is that you really believe your religion has led you to the light, when in actuality you haven't seen the tip of the iceberg. Praying involves no true connection. It just involves pretending. It's a one way conversation, whether you realize it or not. The Bible has inspiring stories, but the words are just words. Hear the words for yourself, and put into action these words spoken from the man himself!

PLEASE. Just try it. The bible and the church are a sorry, sorry, substitute for what we could be doing.
Firesky even if we took Christianity out of the equation I would still have to disagree with you.

If you take a set of written laws our guidelines out of society, group, or organization. You would return to anarchy.

It would be like playing a game with a 5 year old(a game that they made up). Everytime they start losing the rules would change in their favor. If society functioned like this there would be constant infighting.

Without a rule book there would be no way to distinguish accountablity for problems/crimes or process for correction/punishment.
 
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AllTalkNoAction

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It seems to me that the church should not even exist. People should only meet together and work towards reaching their ideals
The ideal isn't just something you work towards, it's to appreciate and share the love of God, with all it's benefits & effects now.

without giving up money to an institution.
The church is what was set up in Acts 2, a group of people who have all received God's Spirit, God's family!

Small amounts of money are required for renting or buying a building, care for the poor and other admin. needs but money never played a big part in the church. Any offerings are voluntary.

Community and fellowship should exist, but definitely NOT priests or pastors. If one person claims to have a divine connection with God, they should teach everyone how to have this connection without preaching about the bible.
In God's church, ALL members are priests! - All minister the things of God.
Pastors are there to help & protect less experienced people, they do not have a special connection to God.


Really, I think there are a lot of people who are extremely bored with the church and I see a lot of people that turn away from it because of how it tries to conform people under a set of rules.
Sounds to me like your experience of "church" isn't what God would have, PM me for an alternative suggestion.
 
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Zunalter

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I want to thank all of you who replied to what I said. I appreciate your input in this thread.

However, every single one of you fail to see what I am saying.

I think Jesus cares about us becoming brighter, more caring, powerful people. I think he wants us ALL to have a true, divine connection with God. He wants all of these things for us. So, what I am saying is I think the church is actually spoiling this idea because we are all conforming to this widespread institution we have formed. It's about the person, not about the church. Don't tell me that a person has to be completely selfless; what Jesus was talking about was making people work together to create a better world, and you can't do that unless you put energy into discovering what YOUR ideal is and how it is you're going to connect to God. AS SOON AS YOU START CONFORMING TO THE CHURCH, all of that burns away. You no longer care about how you're going to reach God, you care about the church. You start caring about "salvation" and you conform in order to save yourself.

The problem is that people think they need to save themselves by going to church. In actuality, the only thing you need to save yourself is God and Jesus, and your willingness to be at one with them. People can help each other do this in fellowship, BUT A CHURCH THAT TELLS A PERSON HOW TO DO IT is not needed. People may need help in finding out what their ideal is, but once they know what to work towards THEY DO NOT NEED TO READ THE BIBLE OR GO TO CHURCH. It should be their life's work, something they do everyday. The church should be eliminated. Period. IF YOU STILL NEED THE BIBLE, and you still need church then I believe that you do not have the connection to God that Jesus intended.
I know you people may like the church, but I can tell it's holding a lot of people behind. Are you guys saying that you don't believe it's possible to have a divine connection with God without the church or bible?

In the end, what I am telling you is that THE ONLY WAY I see people uniting under one "religion" is if the religion makes everyone more powerful, everyone more happy and connected with God. If someone could find their ideal and try to describe it in one to three words, and then they figured out how to reach this ideal and connect with God, then the results would be fantastic. People would know Jesus, would know God, and at the same time they would be reaching for what they truely desire. They would be happy, and not only that, more powerful and able to realize their dreams. It would apply to the person on a very, very deep and individual level. Everyone would fight for God and want to serve Jesus. Fellowship with this idea would make it reach more and more people. In my opinion, WE HAVE NOTHING LIKE THIS NOW. Don't settle for anything less than the best; I know a lot of people in the church who still want more. So don't tell me that the church works, because it obviously has repelled many, many, many people. We don't need it.


With a worldview like that, it would seem that you are consistent in your disapproval of the Bible, because your theology doesnt seem to come from it. For one thing, how are people supposed to know about Jesus, if not for the Bible? And if the Bible can be trusted to teach people about Jesus, what about the rest of it? Are you simply picking what lines up with your worldview and tossing the rest?

You seem to want to believe in a concept of God and Jesus, but Jesus taught from the Old Testament, and was the best follower of the Law that there had ever been. So if it wasn't important, why would He have done such a thing? Several of the books of the Bible are written by people who were close to Him and were taught by Him...so can't they be trusted to know what He was all about, moreso than our opinion?

I can accept you believing in some nebulous higher power that only wants us to strive toward our ideals of goodness, cooperation, and love...but leave my Jesus out of it, don't taint His holiness with man's ideals.
 
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firesky112

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Wareagle: Yes, I have. (?)

Whitestone: Dude, yeah you have a good point. However, this is a relationship with God and Jesus that we talking about. We are talking about things that are eternal that can exist everywhere at once. When you're talking about God and Jesus, you're talking about breaking rules. Under the guidance and leadership of Jesus, we can succeed.

Don't ever try to put all the rules of the universe into one book. THAT IS UTTERLY FOOLISH. I KNOW that you MUST TALK TO GOD HIMSELF, and you must communicate with Jesus himself.

If you set up rules as to how to exactly connect to God, you are going to fail. You know why? Everyone's perception is different, you idiot. People are going to not be able to find the answer they are looking for, and they are going to turn away and never connect to God. This is why you must approach each individual person and help them find their own way by helping them find their own unique ideal. Each person must use their own unique power, their own gifts and their own perception. By connecting to their ideal they can connect to Jesus, and then connect to God.

If you tell everyone how to live, and you make everyone read a book and you make everyone follow a specific set of rules, YOU WILL NOT BRING ANYONE CLOSER TO GOD. You will only bring them closer to the bible, or the church or whatever. Regarding what we are talking about, difference must be recognized. However, by maintaining fellowship after everyone has become closer to God, only then can everyone come together to form a new "government".
Rules may be temporarily made after everyone has been connected, but in order to find this connection rules need to be ignored.
 
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firesky112

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"Are you simply picking what lines up with your worldview and tossing the rest?"


Yes, Zunalter. Sorry to say it but so are you. You believe in the bible, and you're tossing the rest. That's what beliefs are all about, man. You have to make a choice.

Also, Alltalknoaction said this and I want to reply:

"The ideal isn't just something you work towards, it's to appreciate and share the love of God, with all it's benefits & effects now."

Dude man you can appreciate and share the love of God without reading the bible. When you work towards your own ideal you get all the benefits and effects now. I'm saying you can do what you're saying without all that boring reading and conforming crap. You can completely be yourself. You can finally realize that God wants you just as you are, and the more you truely are yourself, the more he loves you.

You know what I heard the most common phrase in the bible was?

"Fear not"
 
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Zunalter

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"Are you simply picking what lines up with your worldview and tossing the rest?"


Yes, Zunalter. Sorry to say it but so are you. You believe in the bible, and you're tossing the rest. That's what beliefs are all about, man. You have to make a choice.

Also, Alltalknoaction said this and I want to reply:

"The ideal isn't just something you work towards, it's to appreciate and share the love of God, with all it's benefits & effects now."

Dude man you can appreciate and share the love of God without reading the bible. When you work towards your own ideal you get all the benefits and effects now. I'm saying you can do what you're saying without all that boring reading and conforming crap. You can completely be yourself. You can finally realize that God wants you just as you are, and the more you truely are yourself, the more he loves you.

You know what I heard the most common phrase in the bible was?

"Fear not"
I see your point, but you misunderstand mine. I am accepting the Bible as truthful and accurate, as a whole work. You, on the other hand, are taking what you want out of the Bible, believing what it says where it is convenient to you, and deciding something is false because it is inconvenient. So, though the book was meant to convey an entire truth, you are ripping out what you like and throw the rest away, which is illogical. If you don't believe that HUGE parts of it are relevant, how can you possibly hope that the pieces you do happen to like are any more correct, any more a reflection of reality...especially considering that the context of the things you DO like are supposed to be taken in light of what has been previously written. Christians can have assurance that Jesus was who he said he was because he fulfills what was written about him in the OT.
 
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tapero

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"Are you simply picking what lines up with your worldview and tossing the rest?"


Yes, Zunalter. Sorry to say it but so are you. You believe in the bible, and you're tossing the rest. That's what beliefs are all about, man. You have to make a choice.

Also, Alltalknoaction said this and I want to reply:

"The ideal isn't just something you work towards, it's to appreciate and share the love of God, with all it's benefits & effects now."

Dude man you can appreciate and share the love of God without reading the bible. When you work towards your own ideal you get all the benefits and effects now. I'm saying you can do what you're saying without all that boring reading and conforming crap. You can completely be yourself. You can finally realize that God wants you just as you are, and the more you truely are yourself, the more he loves you.

You know what I heard the most common phrase in the bible was?

"Fear not"

you wrote:
You know what I heard the most common phrase in the bible was?

"Fear not

Interesting..you are believing as does all who do not know the bible, what people say the bible says.. Just did a search, 'fear not' occurs one time in the NIV and in the old testament.

I explained earlier, that it's not good to get 2nd hand bible knowledge without knowing for yourself.

You think churches go by rules, and many don't.

You think christians live by rules, many don't.

Jesus didn't give us rules.

He gave us commandments. A commandment is what we should do; and basically what he commanded is love, tell others the good news, forgive, trust, have faith, do good to all, don't sin, etc.

Not a rule there, commandments.

Have you heard of Jonah. He was told by God to preach to the Ninevites and he didn't want to do it and sort of ran away.. In the end he did as God asked.

I also explained to you that if you go to a church that has rules (except for church discipline) that you should go to another church. If a church is giving rules, they are not teaching the truth, as God has not given us any rules, but commandments which we obey or disobey.

There may be some rules in a church, about how the service is done, etc. So, I am telling you, there are churches there that don't preach rules, so try to find one that doesn't and enjoy learning about Christ, if you choose to go to church, as there are Christ centered churches out there.
 
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tapero

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Wareagle: Yes, I have. (?)

Whitestone: Dude, yeah you have a good point. However, this is a relationship with God and Jesus that we talking about. We are talking about things that are eternal that can exist everywhere at once. When you're talking about God and Jesus, you're talking about breaking rules. Under the guidance and leadership of Jesus, we can succeed.

Don't ever try to put all the rules of the universe into one book. THAT IS UTTERLY FOOLISH. I KNOW that you MUST TALK TO GOD HIMSELF, and you must communicate with Jesus himself.

If you set up rules as to how to exactly connect to God, you are going to fail. You know why? Everyone's perception is different, you idiot. People are going to not be able to find the answer they are looking for, and they are going to turn away and never connect to God. This is why you must approach each individual person and help them find their own way by helping them find their own unique ideal. Each person must use their own unique power, their own gifts and their own perception. By connecting to their ideal they can connect to Jesus, and then connect to God.

If you tell everyone how to live, and you make everyone read a book and you make everyone follow a specific set of rules, YOU WILL NOT BRING ANYONE CLOSER TO GOD. You will only bring them closer to the bible, or the church or whatever. Regarding what we are talking about, difference must be recognized. However, by maintaining fellowship after everyone has become closer to God, only then can everyone come together to form a new "government".
Rules may be temporarily made after everyone has been connected, but in order to find this connection rules need to be ignored.


you wrote:
Everyone's perception is different, you idiot.

I didn't see orignal post if poster called you name, but I rather doubt it. You asked us to be kind to you and you are being unkind by the above statement by saying that to a poster. Why ask for respect if you don't have any for others?

There are Christians who do think there are rules that must be followed to be a Christian. They are wrong. Get over it, and get to a Christ centered church, which does not have rules, etc.

There are denominations that have tons of rules. Don't go there!

The only rules that are in the bible are in the Old Testament and was to the Hebrews only; Gods chosen people. The law is past, however, there are believers who do practice as best they can some of those rules (laws) in the Old Testament. They keep the Sabbath according to Leviticus, and many other things as contained in the Law in the Old Testament which is prior to Jesus' coming. They are much a minority, and if you don't like rules, don't go to a Messianic church where such might be espoused.

No one makes anyone read the bible or go to church, except parents. Sounds like you've been burnt or had a friend is, and blaming all Christians for garbage that happened to you.

Most likely of course without a clue of what's in the bible, you say not to read it, nor do as God commands, you are going by probably having been offended by ONE Christian, maybe TWO, I doubt you've been in a church as again, don't know what occurs in church, so I'm guessing it was a Christian who OFFENDED you.

Christians OFFEND people all the time including each other. If such occured, let it go and move on, and know that if you want to know WHO God is, and what Jesus is like and what he desires of you, crack the bible, or your grasping from the ungodly world what you think God wants which many if not most very wrong, and basically is a deception; which you need to see thru, but can't without the bible.

Some do say; do unto others, do good to your neighbor, don't hurt anyone, etc, those are very good things, coming from the ungodly world, but the same are also adding God is in everyone and everything, and you don't need any truth but my truth.

Your doing what Romans says, exchanging the truth of God for lies.

You are turned of from the bible, because one, you haven't read it, 2, some Christian offended you, or some Christian misquoted, or did not reveal the truth of what was said (as there are many Christians who do not know the bible either) and do same as you, hear stuff, think that's what God says and hate it, or take to it, and preach it and its false. They blame it on God or other Christians, what they hear, and have no clue to what is in the bible to determine things.

If I looked at you and said, well, i've read what you have to say, and since you do not read the bible, that means that all who do not read the bible feel exactly the same way you do. That's called prejudice which is what you are full of towards christians, the gathreing of chrisitans is a building, and the bible, with no knowledge.

you wrote:

Under the guidance and leadership of Jesus, we can succeed.

How do you follow him if you don't know what he wants of you? And how can you be guided, when your not certain whether due to your psychic ability if you are talking and listening to demons or not (which I explained in earlier post such is detestable to God, and so should not be practiced (not that you are detestable, but the practice of such is.)

you wrote:

However, by maintaining fellowship after everyone has become closer to God, only then can everyone come together to form a new "government".

and i ask for like the 3rd time now, what are you gonna do with the rapists, incestors, murderers etc.

You have no answer; God does, we know it too, but you have no way to do anything about such; and so how does that bit play into your one world religion?

Again, I'll remind you, you asked us to be gentle with us and then made such a statement as quoted above.

If you wish respect, be respectful. Many of us will be respectful any way; but if my tone is out of line, it's cause I'm human and fail, cause when I read what you said to another poster; well, you know.

You reap what you sow.
 
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"I am accepting the Bible as truthful and accurate, as a whole work. You, on the other hand, are taking what you want out of the Bible, believing what it says where it is convenient to you, and deciding something is false because it is inconvenient. "



The bible was created exactly in this way in the meeting in Nicocea called by Constantine, the Roman emperor, in approx 300AD.
Many parts were added , many taken away and most of the new testament was written by a Roman family called Piso.
It may be hard for you to understand but many "Messiah" stories existed long before Christ was suppose to have walked the earth.They too were of virgin birth,started ministering at age 30 and died for the sins of the world.

Of the 20 well known Historians that lived in and around the time and area of Christs supposed life-time, how many made mention of his sermons, his triumphant entry into Jerusalem, his many miracles and sermons,his trial and crucifiction?

Not one, not a single peep.


See David Ickes many books, amongst other authors.


I am NOT preaching, only relaying knowledge, allow the free-flow of knowledge.
Knowledge is know only to the few and hidden from the masses/ sheep/ livestock. (That's how they see us)

but many are "waking up"
Google : david icke or montalk

Check out some of DAvids video casts on utube or google, also search for "Zeitgiest" in utube or google video.

Free your mind.

Allow the scales of religion and dogma and false creations to fall from your eyes.
It will be like a liberation of the mind.
We may all be one conciousness experiencing a false reality were the luciferic conciousness is also present but only you have the answers.

Christianity has been proven a fraud. There is no Heaven or Hell. We may be eternal souls trapped in a recycling machine ruled by other wordly or dimension entities, you may know these as "The Devil" who have actually made themselves the Gods of all world religions.The bible is a conglomeration of pagan religions .Catholic means "universal" and from were the bible sprung. A Universal faith which Constantine created to unite and mind-control the masses.

Pan ,from Greece, is one of your "Devils".

Many Cathederals , religion buildings and financial center buildings are full of the secret society symbols as well as all created religions.



Please people, if only one of you wake up from this I will die happy :)

Christianity is an off-shoot of many pagan religions.
It is a tool used to enslave the masses and keep us from the truth.
That "God" is within us and we have potential far beyond our knowledge and they do not want us to grasp this.
We are already in a kind of Hell or prision.
Have you never asked or said to yourself when you view the world and it's many horrors, (it has many good things too) "Something is very wrong here"?
Why would those in heaven rebel if they knew the truth, lived in the love and light of "God" and choose to be "Damed" for eternity and take as many as they could with them?
We come here for a single life and then some big jealous,vengefull "God" who has ordered the massacre of men, women and children, even whole towns and cities, even whole nations, will judge us an most will go to "Hell".
It's so laughtable.
It is farcical, childish and very very transparent.
The Catholic Church didn't even regonise or acknowledge until 1050AD that Women even had a soul!
Female energy has been surpressed so that the predominately luciferic ego of man could spread throught out the earth.
It is the positive expression of the female energy that they have sought to suppress, not the female energy itself.

My Love to you all.

"Spiritual recovery most probably comes about in the same way that nearly all personal improvement occurs:through personal conscious effort, not through the
machinations of a fictitious cosmic ladder.*William Bramley:The Gods of Eden.
If you can access higher levels of consciousness, you can bring into this world understandings and knowledge that are light years ahead of human science.
I am an aspect of consciousness awakening to my true self and that does not require titles or all-encompassing ‘movements’. It requires me to follow my own intuition at all times. *David Icke"
 
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WarEagle

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Wareagle: Yes, I have. (?)

So, if you admit that you lie, how do you think your lies are going to go over when you stand before God to be judged?

Everyone's perception is different, you idiot.

Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.
 
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