Why is the Vatican and Catholicism superior?

[PT Calvinist]

tell me more, You seem to know something I don't

 

[Albion]

tell me more, You seem to know something I don't

All I was saying is that, regardless of how we interpret "rock" and "build my church" -- even if we were to provisionally accept the RCC's claims on those points--there is nothing about anyone coming after Peter or about the city of Rome, and nothing that would make either of those necessary, despite the awkward "it's implied" replies that always come back from Catholics.

 

[HolyGuardianAngels]

any thoughts?

. . . Because Catholicsm is the true way. The Devil has offered many False paths; but we know, when he or she says, "I am a Catholic" is the truth, since Christ called into being His Church via Pope Peter.

 

[Uphill Battle]

. . . Because Catholicsm is the true way. The Devil has offered many False paths; but we know, when he or she says, "I am a Catholic" is the truth, since Christ called into being His Church via Pope Peter.

I find that amusing. You are, correct me if I'm mistaken, refering by proxy to the passage "nobody who says "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit.

which doesn't mention denominational affiliation in the slightest.

 

[BrightCandle]

The Vatican is superior because it has been since the Early church. None of it's values have been corrupted.

It has remained longer than any other.

It is contentness allows it not to be slave to human thought and rationalism.

The Roman Church was prophesied by Paul in II Thess.2 to arise late in the first century, where Paul describes "the man of lawlessness" who "exalts himself" and proclaims himself to be God, and would exist all the way to the second coming of Christ as prophesied by John in Revelation 13, as the beast that arises out of the sea who was given its authority by the "dragon" (Pagan Rome).

When it comes to corruption and biblical values, did you know that Rome believes in theistic evolution and exalts tradition over the plains words of Scripture? How could a pure church persecute true Christians to the point of death for over 300 years during the Inquisition?

 

[BrightCandle]

. . . Because Catholicsm is the true way. The Devil has offered many False paths; but we know, when he or she says, "I am a Catholic" is the truth, since Christ called into being His Church via Pope Peter.

Peter would have no part of the doctrines and practices of Rome if he were alive today. Can you imagine Peter trumping himself up like the Pope does in our time? I don't think so!!

 

[wiselife]

What if we take the simpler route that the references to Rome in the last book of the Bible refer to Rome, that is Imperial Rome?

 

[Fixation On God]

The Roman Church was prophesied by Paul in II Thess.2 to arise late in the first century, where Paul describes "the man of lawlessness" who "exalts himself" and proclaims himself to be God, and would exist all the way to the second coming of Christ as prophesied by John in Revelation 13, as the beast that arises out of the sea who was given its authority by the "dragon" (Pagan Rome).

When it comes to corruption and biblical values, did you know that Rome believes in theistic evolution and exalts tradition over the plains words of Scripture? How could a pure church persecute true Christians to the point of death for over 300 years during the Inquisition?

The Papacy is a good read.

 

[BrightCandle]

What if we take the simpler route that the references to Rome in the last book of the Bible refer to Rome, that is Imperial Rome?

History is clear that Papal Rome arose out of the rubble of Pagan Rome. In the book of Revelation Pagan Rome is symbolically referred to as the "Dragon", while Papal Rome is symbolically shown as a one of the seven heads on a composite beast that exalted himself over the rest of the heads and spoke blasphemous things. See Revelation 13:1-10 and Daniel 7: 23-25.

 

[AmericanCatholic]

Peter would have no part of the doctrines and practices of Rome if he were alive today. Can you imagine Peter trumping himself up like the Pope does in our time? I don't think so!!

Why would he "trump himself like the Pope" if he was the first Pope to begin with?

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Originally Posted by Stephen Kendall (bold mine)

Superior is the one who fastens his drying towel on and starts washing others' feet. Organizations are not superior, but really inferior as compared to our individual relationships with our Father. 37,000 denominations are not all going to be right and none of them will be able to stand the heat. Individuals, together or alone, will stand the test.
​

Jesus says the exact opposite. One Church WILL be able to stand the "heat": "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Matthew 16:18

As I said above, "Individuals, together or alone, will stand the test." (together being the one true spiritual church (not man-made) or alone by our faith we are saved through Christ (still being a spiritual church by summation and collection by God himself)). Organizations, established by men, are not the spiritual church established by God and the Holy Spirit for Christ. There is one body of true faith, innocent of sin through Christ, and this body is spiritual or it is naught. The walls of organizations can not contain or know the Spirit of God. It if futile for men to speak of their place before God. Let God say it and in this way it is truly known, as was with Christ and his early believers.

I have someone to follow and faith to do so. I need not the creations of man to know my God, but Christ alone and my faith in him, to obey, trust and follow him with the help of the Holy Spirit.

 

[BrightCandle]

Why would he "trump himself like the Pope" if he was the first Pope to begin with?

You miss my point: Look at how the modern Popes use so much pomp and circumstance to dazzle the sense of the ignorant masses. Look at the regal and ornate costume that the Pope wheres to add more sizzle. These are the ways the world impresses people, look at Las Vegas, and you see much of the same type of visual stimulation when the Papacy performs its ceremonies. Remember, Peter, denied Christ, and had to be reinstated as an Apostle, only Judas committed a worse crime than Peter against Jesus of the 12. Therefore, its very hard to imagine Peter adding the name Great to his title like so many Popes have done in the history of the Papacy. For example: Leo the Great, Gregory the Great, etc, etc., exalting one self over his brethren is a key identifying mark of the Antichrist.

 

[BrightCandle]

Originally Posted by Stephen Kendall (bold mine)

Superior is the one who fastens his drying towel on and starts washing others' feet. Organizations are not superior, but really inferior as compared to our individual relationships with our Father. 37,000 denominations are not all going to be right and none of them will be able to stand the heat. Individuals, together or alone, will stand the test.
​

As I said above, "Individuals, together or alone, will stand the test." (together being the one true spiritual church (not man-made) or alone by our faith we are saved through Christ (still being a spiritual church by summation and collection by God himself)). Organizations, established by men, are not the spiritual church established by God and the Holy Spirit for Christ. There is one body of true faith, innocent of sin through Christ, and this body is spiritual or it is naught. The walls of organizations can not contain or know the Spirit of God. It if futile for men to speak of their place before God. Let God say it and in this way it is truly known, as was with Christ and his early believers.

I have someone to follow and faith to do so. I need not the creations of man to know my God, but Christ alone and my faith in him, to obey, trust and follow him with the help of the Holy Spirit.

Revelation 14:12 identifies those type of people that you have described above, "Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their in Jesus." (Note, this is in contrast with those mentioned in vss. 9-11 who don't keep God's commandments and receive the mark of the beast).

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

The Roman Church was prophesied by Paul in II Thess.2 to arise late in the first century, where Paul describes "the man of lawlessness" who "exalts himself" and proclaims himself to be God, and would exist all the way to the second coming of Christ as prophesied by John in Revelation 13, as the beast that arises out of the sea who was given its authority by the "dragon" (Pagan Rome).

That has nothing to do with the Church that Paul was part of - the Catholic Church.

When it comes to corruption and biblical values, did you know that Rome believes in theistic evolution and exalts tradition over the plains words of Scripture? How could a pure church persecute true Christians to the point of death for over 300 years during the Inquisition?

Rome doesn't "believe in theistic evolution". Evolution is a scientific matter, therefore, the Church doesn't hold any scientific accounts as doctrine or matters of faith.

The Church doesn't hold tradition over "the plain words of scripture". By tradtion, I assume you mean Holy Tradition- which is what we call what the apostles taught. The Church holds that Holy Tradition (what the apostles taught) is equal with Scripture (what the apostles taught that ended up in canonical writings). The idea of going by scripture alone is an Islamic belief that was one of many the Reformationist incorporated into their form of Christianity.

The Church didn't persecute "true Christians". I don't know where you are getting the word "pure" from. Catholics are fallible human beings. Meanwhile many of the Reformers persecuted and killed Christians. The Anabaptists were some of the nastiest- they were Anarchists who wanted to overthrown governments and started multiple riots. What I love is when protestants argue that the Catholic Church is wrong because governments like France and Germany sent troops to squash these rebellions and they call that "persecution by the Church".

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

So...

Is the Vatican superior?

Forgive me...

We didn't make this up.

From the Council of Chalcedon (451 AD):

"We received directions at the hands of the most blessed and apostolic bishop of the Roman city, which is the head of all the churches"

"We cannot go counter to the decrees of the most blessed and apostolic bishop, who governs the Apostolic See, nor against the ecclesiastical canons nor the patristic traditions." [hmm: Pope, Canons, Tradition]

"Canon Six of the 318 holy fathers, "The Roman Church hath always had the primacy. "

"Wherefore the most holy and blessed Leo, archbishop of the great and elder Rome, through us, and through this present most holy synod together with the thrice blessed and all-glorious Peter the Apostle, who is the rock and foundation of the Catholic Church, and the foundation of the orthodox faith"

The last line is a direct reference to Matthew 16:18, don't you think?

 

[Albion]

We didn't make this up.

From the Council of Chalcedon (451 AD):

"We received directions at the hands of the most blessed and apostolic bishop of the Roman city, which is the head of all the churches"

"We cannot go counter to the decrees of the most blessed and apostolic bishop, who governs the Apostolic See, nor against the ecclesiastical canons nor the patristic traditions." [hmm: Pope, Canons, Tradition]

"Canon Six of the 318 holy fathers, "The Roman Church hath always had the primacy. "

"Wherefore the most holy and blessed Leo, archbishop of the great and elder Rome, through us, and through this present most holy synod together with the thrice blessed and all-glorious Peter the Apostle, who is the rock and foundation of the Catholic Church, and the foundation of the orthodox faith"

The last line is a direct reference to Matthew 16:18, don't you think?

I agree. It probably was Leo who should be credited with inventing the Papacy...and this happened about 400 years after Christ. The Roman church thereafter found meanings in various scriptural passages which it had not used previously and presented them as supposedly supporting its claims (Matthew 16:18 being the most famous).

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

I agree. It probably was Leo who should be credited with inventing the Papacy...and this happened about 400 years after Christ. The Roman church thereafter found meanings in various scriptural passages which it had not used previously and presented them as supposedly supporting its claims (Matthew 16:18 being the most famous).

Are you kidding? Christ created the Papacy.

Leo wasn't even at the Council. Everything quoted there came from something that was said before Leo was born.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Are you kidding? Christ created the Papacy.

Leo wasn't even at the Council. Everything quoted there came from something that was said before Leo was born.

Sounds like the makings of a new thread

 

[Albion]

Are you kidding? Christ created the Papacy.

Christ created the Papacy? LOL

Excuse me, but am I supposed to realize that I'm not to take you seriously, but that (like Holy Banana) you're being some kind of Devil's Advocate for the sake of having a discussion?

 

[BrightCandle]

That has nothing to do with the Church that Paul was part of - the Catholic Church.



Rome doesn't "believe in theistic evolution". Evolution is a scientific matter, therefore, the Church doesn't hold any scientific accounts as doctrine or matters of faith.

The Church doesn't hold tradition over "the plain words of scripture". By tradtion, I assume you mean Holy Tradition- which is what we call what the apostles taught. The Church holds that Holy Tradition (what the apostles taught) is equal with Scripture (what the apostles taught that ended up in canonical writings). The idea of going by scripture alone is an Islamic belief that was one of many the Reformationist incorporated into their form of Christianity.

The Church didn't persecute "true Christians". I don't know where you are getting the word "pure" from. Catholics are fallible human beings. Meanwhile many of the Reformers persecuted and killed Christians. The Anabaptists were some of the nastiest- they were Anarchists who wanted to overthrown governments and started multiple riots. What I love is when protestants argue that the Catholic Church is wrong because governments like France and Germany sent troops to squash these rebellions and they call that "persecution by the Church".

You say Rome doesn't believe in "theistic evolution" (6,000 year creation time period), and yet look at what this Catholic Answers Web site has to say:

Creation and Genesis

Basically, it puts more weight in to what the early church fathers have to say, than what the Bible says. Again, tradition trumps Scripture. It clearly states in Genesis 1, over and over again six times: "And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.". What marks out days now and then? Sunset and sunrise.

Regarding Paul identifying the Papacy as the Antichrist: The Reformers who were almost all former Catholics who came to believe that the Papacy was the "lawless one" that Paul mentions in II Thess. 2. This is the same person that Daniel and John saw in vision and wrote about as well. One who would exalt himself, would persecute God's true people, and would seek to change God's laws and trump himself up to be like God on earth. The Papacy is a perfect fit, with over 1,500 years of solid evidence to back up the claim.