Why is the Church weak?

[joshuanazar]

When I talk about the Church, I am talking about the body of Christ. I am talking about everybody that has a relationship with Jesus, regardless of denomination or whatever else is dividing us.

If you do not believe that we are weak, then I invite you to read about the early church in Acts. They were strong, they were effective, and they were different than we are now. Now, I hardly see healings or deliverances. I see backbiting and gossiping, vain conversations void of God, complacent christians who are strangers to each other, and I see a sea of hurting souls stumbling in the darkness while searching for the truth.

Obviously these denominations are one of the reasons that we are weak. As Jesus said, "a house divided against itself will fall." But these divisions are just symptoms of what is really plaguing the body of Christ. The problem that I see is traditions that breed meaning religion. Matthew 15:1-9

 

[BryanW92]

Denominations (and non-denominations, which are really just a denomination of one) don't make the church weak. They have denominations in Africa and Asia where the church is strong. It is fear and distraction that makes our churches weak in the West. The churches know that people have too many distractions and an overblown sense of self-importance and they fear giving them a reason to leave. So, the church preaches weakness and tolerance of sin and begs people to help others, because that's easier than convicting the memebrship of its own sin. A church full of people who understand their own sinful natures and know the importance of Jesus and the cross is strong--denomination or not.

 

[pescador]

When I talk about the Church, I am talking about the body of Christ. I am talking about everybody that has a relationship with Jesus, regardless of denomination or whatever else is dividing us.

If you do not believe that we are weak, then I invite you to read about the early church in Acts. They were strong, they were effective, and they were different than we are now. Now, I hardly see healings or deliverances. I see backbiting and gossiping, vain conversations void of God, complacent christians who are strangers to each other, and I see a sea of hurting souls stumbling in the darkness while searching for the truth.

Obviously these denominations are one of the reasons that we are weak. As Jesus said, "a house divided against itself will fall." But these divisions are just symptoms of what is really plaguing the body of Christ. The problem that I see is traditions that breed meaning religion. Matthew 15:1-9

I don't see much difference between Jesus' saying "a house divided against itself will fail" and what you are saying here. You are putting forth your standard for the church and judging others who don't meet that standard. Aren't you doing what you accuse others of doing?

 

[Bramwell]

Hi Joshua,

It sounds like your reference to the church includes all who believe in Jesus, regardless of their denomination. Is that correct?

I agree that the church today is weak in comparison with the church from the book of Acts. The differences are so big, in fact, that I wonder: what would happen if Christians today were to live like the first church? What would result if modern Christians were to share all things in common, and live communally? (Acts 2:44-45) I reckon that lifestyle change alone would be enough to affect positive change, and eliminate so many of the divisions we currently have in "Christendom".

 

[pescador]

Denominations (and non-denominations, which are really just a denomination of one) don't make the church weak. They have denominations in Africa and Asia where the church is strong. It is fear and distraction that makes our churches weak in the West. The churches know that people have too many distractions and an overblown sense of self-importance and they fear giving them a reason to leave. So, the church preaches weakness and tolerance of sin and begs people to help others, because that's easier than convicting the memebrship of its own sin. A church full of people who understand their own sinful natures and know the importance of Jesus and the cross is strong--denomination or not.

There is nothing wrong with helping others! We should all do that instead of judging them in their sin. It was foundational to Jesus to help all regardless of their status. He severely criticized others who judged people but did little or nothing to help them.


BTW, why and joshuanazar both say the church is weak?

 

[pescador]

Hi Joshua,

It sounds like your reference to the church includes all who believe in Jesus, regardless of their denomination. Is that correct?

I agree that the church today is weak in comparison with the church from the book of Acts. The differences are so big, in fact, that I wonder: what would happen if Christians today were to live like the first church? What would result if modern Christians were to share all things in common, and live communally? (Acts 2:44-45) I reckon that lifestyle change alone would be enough to affect positive change, and eliminate so many of the divisions we currently have in "Christendom".

The church from the book of Acts is described as being passionate and having a strong sense of community but that didn't last long. When you read Paul's letters it is obvious that there were real problems in the church not very long after: divisions, selfishness, hierarchies, etc. There was even the great division between Paul's Christianity and the Christianity centered in Jerusalem, something that isn't discussed as often as it should be.


Unfortunately, the church in Acts had a "honeymoon period" that quickly ended. It's probably impossible to live that way except for a very short time.

 

[joshuanazar]

Let me begin by repeating that denominations are one of the symptoms, not the underlying problem. The problem is religion. It is being distracted by this world and not seeing Jesus' grace. Then people pass on their viewpoints that are shadowed by our ignorance of his grace. They pass on these traditions as if they came from God himself, though they have lost sight of him. There are some strong churches, but as a whole we are weak.
And yes, when I say church I mean everyone who believes in Christ Jesus regardless of what denomination they claim. I myself claim no denomination, not even non-denomination. I am claiming only Jesus.

 

[joshuanazar]

All things are possible with Christ. His love never fails. We can live a continuous passionate honeymoon love with Him as long as we keep our focus on him.

 

[Bobinator]

Don’t know why this “don’t judge” mantra keeps entering the discussions, especially when pointing out the failings of the church. It’s obvious that by virtue of the church being so weak today, that God has already judged. Pointing out this fact does not make one a judge. It's merely pointing out the obvious and making a statement that the body of Christ needs to repent.

I’m of the opinion that judging people, as referred to in the Bible, is usually associated with some kind of verdict or consequence. Calling sin a sin is not judgment, but is discernment. Since the Lord says to confess our sins one to another, confessing the church’s sins before God is not an unrighteous act.

1orin.6:3- “Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?”

 

[Sketcher]

If you do not believe that we are weak, then I invite you to read about the early church in Acts. They were strong, they were effective, and they were different than we are now. Now, I hardly see healings or deliverances. I see backbiting and gossiping, vain conversations void of God, complacent christians who are strangers to each other, and I see a sea of hurting souls stumbling in the darkness while searching for the truth.

It seems that the churches that emphasize healings and deliverances also emphasize the so-called prosperity gospel, which is not really a gospel at all. That's more about greed and spiritual abuse than it is about the love and truth that Jesus and the Apostles preached. We're not entitled to wealth or physical healing, born again or not. Faith isn't a cure-all to instantly get us out of our trials, no matter how much of it we have.

 

[joshuanazar]

I do agree. Some people take the verse "judge not lest ye be judged" to the extreme and ignore all of the other verses about judging. Paul was big on making judgments in the church, but he also said that we are not to judge the lost. 1 Corinthians 5:9-13

 

[joshuanazar]

It seems that the churches that emphasize healings and deliverances also emphasize the so-called prosperity gospel, which is not really a gospel at all. That's more about greed and spiritual abuse than it is about the love and truth that Jesus and the Apostles preached. We're not entitled to wealth or physical healing, born again or not. Faith isn't a cure-all to instantly get us out of our trials, no matter how much of it we have.

But the Bible does promise healing and that all of our needs will be met, also that we will have the desires of our heart. There can be no denying what the Bible says. The problem is when we focus on the blessings instead of the blesser. I honestly never followed this debate about prosperity. But I do know God's grace and love and He will always be the answer. We will go through trials. But with his grace we will find joy and life in the valley of the shadow of death. A trial shouldn't be a hardship, but a way to get closer to our redeemer, our healer, our provider, our loving friend Jesus.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

There we problems in the early church. Peter and Paul had major problems for quite a while. Very different understanding of the gospel as it referred to gentiles.

All the epistles are letters to the churches. I think Corinth and Galatia are two good examples of churches who were heading towards the wrong direction and needed Paul to help bring them back to the fold.

If your point is all about miracles, then your not seeing the forest through the trees. Your title calls the church weak. That's quite a statement. If your basing that statement off of lack of miracles and healings, than you should be in the Spirit Filled forum discussing such things as does not a weak church make one that does not do miracles. Yesireeee

 

[ToBeBlessed]

But the Bible does promise healing and that all of our needs will be met, also that we will have the desires of our heart. There can be no denying what the Bible says. The problem is when we focus on the blessings instead of the blesser. I honestly never followed this debate about prosperity. But I do know God's grace and love and He will always be the answer. We will go through trials. But with his grace we will find joy and life in the valley of the shadow of death. A trial shouldn't be a hardship, but a way to get closer to our redeemer, our healer, our provider, our loving friend Jesus.

The Lord chooses who He will heal.

Having all your needs met by God is that you will not starve or die from thirst. God is not all about supplying our physical needs. God is about spiritual things. Things to come in heaven. This earth is where we are until we are with the Lord. Not the other way around.

Jesus says that this world is not His home. The Word tells us that this world is also not our home.

God does not dwell on preparing us for or keeping us in this world. If it is His will then we do. If it's not, then who knows how long we will be here.

 

[BryanW92]

All the epistles are letters to the churches.

I think that the modern Western church is weak because of this. If a modern-day Paul wrote a letter to a modern church telling them where they are teaching incorrectly or acting un-Christlike, how many pastors would read that to his church? How many church councils would vote to change (the scariest word in church) how they do things?

How many would dismiss him as a crackpot who "doesn't understand the uniqueness and special circumstances of OUR church"?

Obviously, those early churches took Paul's advice because they eventually became the churches who sent the emissaries to the councils who canonized the scripture we now use.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

I do agree. Some people take the verse "judge not lest ye be judged" to the extreme and ignore all of the other verses about judging. Paul was big on making judgments in the church, but he also said that we are not to judge the lost. 1 Corinthians 5:9-13

Paul was THE apostle to the gentiles. That was Paul's role given to him by Christ.

Paul had full authority as an apostle and as Paul FOUNDED EACH one of those churches during Paul's Missionary journeys, I think Paul had more than enough authority to correct them.

A judgement is an opinion. Paul had the knowledge of the gospel and how it was related to the gentiles. That is not a judgement when Paul corrected the church.

 

[Sketcher]

But the Bible does promise healing and that all of our needs will be met, also that we will have the desires of our heart. There can be no denying what the Bible says.

Not to all faithful Christians, all the time. However, prosperity doctrine teaches that it does. If you don't have those things, you must not have enough faith. Personally, I think everyone who clobbers Christians who are down with that lie ought to be similarly clobbered when its their turn to suffer. Especially the teachers.

I honestly never followed this debate about prosperity.

You should. It's a very relevant strain of thought that has infected American Christianity, and from those churches that send out missionaries, the world. It's too important for a Christian not to have an opinion on.

But I do know God's grace and love and He will always be the answer. We will go through trials. But with his grace we will find joy and life in the valley of the shadow of death. A trial shouldn't be a hardship, but a way to get closer to our redeemer, our healer, our provider, our loving friend Jesus.

Through Christ, we can bear up under trials, unnaturally so. But the prosperity teachings fly in the face of faithful Christians having trials.

 

[joshuanazar]

The Lord chooses who He will heal.

Having all your needs met by God is that you will not starve or die from thirst. God is not all about supplying our physical needs. God is about spiritual things. Things to come in heaven. This earth is where we are until we are with the Lord. Not the other way around.

Jesus says that this world is not His home. The Word tells us that this world is also not our home.

God does not dwell on preparing us for or keeping us in this world. If it is His will then we do. If it's not, then who knows how long we will be here.

There is the key. You say that the Lord chooses who he will heal. The Lord's will is that all shall be healed. God is no respecter of persons, what he does for one he will do for anyone else. Remember Isaiah says that by his stripes we were healed (past tense). I worship a God of love and he will fulfill every single promise in the Bible. Jesus never turned anyone away when they came to him to be healed. He didn't when he walked the earth and he will not now.
I know that we will go through trials and sufferings, and part of me delights in them. But we should never be content with staying in the valleys of life. We should always be striving to see more of God's grace.
A strong church is a body of believers with an over abundance of healings and miracles. But it also has people being delivered from addictions and depression, more souls being saved than ever before. A strong church will stand out as being separate from the world, but still loving and serving the people in it. It will be a church where the members worship the Lord without ceasing. And it will be a church that will overcome the forces of darkness where we will eventually be outlawed to gather because the prince of this world wishes to suppress our strength. And we will become even stronger despite that. WE NEED TO FOCUS ON JESUS AND GROW IN HIS IMAGE.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

There is the key. You say that the Lord chooses who he will heal. The Lord's will is that all shall be healed. God is no respecter of persons, what he does for one he will do for anyone else. Remember Isaiah says that by his stripes we were healed (past tense). I worship a God of love and he will fulfill every single promise in the Bible. Jesus never turned anyone away when they came to him to be healed. He didn't when he walked the earth and he will not now.
I know that we will go through trials and sufferings, and part of me delights in them. But we should never be content with staying in the valleys of life. We should always be striving to see more of God's grace.
A strong church is a body of believers with an over abundance of healings and miracles. But it also has people being delivered from addictions and depression, more souls being saved than ever before. A strong church will stand out as being separate from the world, but still loving and serving the people in it. It will be a church where the members worship the Lord without ceasing. And it will be a church that will overcome the forces of darkness where we will eventually be outlawed to gather because the prince of this world wishes to suppress our strength. And we will become even stronger despite that. WE NEED TO FOCUS ON JESUS AND GROW IN HIS IMAGE.

I think that we can see by the number of church goers who pass from many different diseases that God does not always heal. I really doubt that you know or can say what is the will of God.

If you are judging the strength of a church by an ABUNDANCE of healings and miracles, than you are NOT judging a church on God's set of criteria, which is the Word, but your own set of criteria. God's criteria is different then yours.

Do you worship the Lord without ceasing? That would be constantly. I doubt this as no one does.

As far as overcoming the powers of darkness, actually that will not be done until Christ's return. Christ is the only one ABLE to overcome darkness because satan is too strong for us.

 

[Sketcher]

A strong church is a body of believers with an over abundance of healings and miracles.

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. . .

So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love. - 1 Cor 13:1-3, 13​