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Joseph did not lose the plates, he lost the manuscript for the Book of Lehi or it could have been stolen when Martin Harris took it to show it to his wife.
He had his head in a hat when he dictated the Book of Mormon. The plates weren't in the hat.
Joseph Smith used the plates to translate the Book of Lehi through revelation from God. There are at least eleven witnesses to the plates. After the Book of Lehi was either lost or stolen Joseph Smith lost his ability to translate for a time. Translating the Book of Lehi was a slow process. God made it possible for Joseph Smith to use a seer stone in a hat to finish dictating the Book of Mormon. The exact date that the plates were returned to the angel Moroni is not known, but it is believed to be around June of 1929.He had his head in a hat when he dictated the Book of Mormon. The plates weren't in the hat.
Yet, you insist that he had no plates when his head was in the hat. So, again, it is not adding up in my head. If he did not need the plates when his head was in the hat, what was he translating for he had no plates. What am I missing?Joseph Smith used the plates to translate the Book of Lehi through revelation from God. There are at least eleven witnesses to the plates. After the Book of Lehi was either lost or stolen Joseph Smith lost his ability to translate for a time. Translating the Book of Lehi was a slow process. God made it possible for Joseph Smith to use a seer stone in a hat to finish dictating the Book of Mormon. The exact date that the plates were returned to the angel Moroni is not known, but it is believed to be around June of 1929.
I believe you are missing the fact that all of the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price was given to Joseph Smith by revelation. The Bible also was given by revelation:Yet, you insist that he had no plates when his head was in the hat. So, again, it is not adding up in my head. If he did not need the plates when his head was in the hat, what was he translating for he had no plates. What am I missing?
Your right, the plates were not in the hat. But he did have golden plates that he had translated the Lehi manuscript from. Many saw the plates and many testify they saw the plates. Can't get around the testimonies of many who never denied their testimonies.He had his head in a hat when he dictated the Book of Mormon. The plates weren't in the hat.
Add this up:Yet, you insist that he had no plates when his head was in the hat. So, again, it is not adding up in my head. If he did not need the plates when his head was in the hat, what was he translating for he had no plates. What am I missing?
I believe you are missing the fact that all of the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price was given to Joseph Smith by revelation. The Bible also was given by revelation:
(Old Testament | Exodus 4:10 - 17)
10 ¶ And Moses said unto the LORD, O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I am slow of speech, and of a slow tongue.
11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?
12 Now therefore go, and I will be with thy mouth, and teach thee what thou shalt say.
13 And he said, O my Lord, send, I pray thee, by the hand of him whom thou wilt send.
14 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Moses, and he said, Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak well. And also, behold, he cometh forth to meet thee: and when he seeth thee, he will be glad in his heart.
15 And thou shalt speak unto him, and put words in his mouth: and I will be with thy mouth, and with his mouth, and will teach you what ye shall do.
16 And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of God.
17 And thou shalt take this rod in thine hand, wherewith thou shalt do signs.
(New Testament | John 14:26)
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
(New Testament | 2 Peter 1:21)
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
However, the plates were necessary as proof that a record was kept by those who lived here in the Americas and that Joseph Smith didn't just make it up. That is one of the reasons for the plates and of course the plates were handed down from generation to generation by the people who lived here so they would have guidance from God.
Your right, the plates were not in the hat. But he did have golden plates that he had translated the Lehi manuscript from. Many saw the plates and many testify they saw the plates. Can't get around the testimonies of many who never denied their testimonies.
Did the Jews learn anything from Jesus turning over the tables. No, in fact they crucified him.All of those are before He went bac k to Heaven. Once thee, He has not come back and will not un t8il His return for us. The rest have been in visions.
Mat_24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
He is not going to say that, and turn around and go to some other country. And, as I said, where is the proof that He was anywhere in the Americas, for they continued to have human sacrifice until the Spaniards came. Jesus turned over the tables at the temple, how much more would He have turned over the stones used for human sacrifice in the Americas. No such thing happened. Our Jesus is not ineffectual. When He showed up---things changed. When your Jesus shows up, things stayed the same.
Add this up:
1) the Lord brought JS the golden plates. For a real hands on testiment of the reality of the people written about on the plates.
2) JS translates very slowly and methodically with the plates and the U&T.
3) after he did this, the Lord told him he could read from the stone and do the translation much faster, which he did.
So JS needed the plates for a reality check, and then finished the translation with the stone.
Not too difficult to get your head around that, unless you are anti JS.
Did the Jews learn anything from Jesus turning over the tables. No, in fact they crucified him.
Did anyting change for the Jews? No, they thought he was a radical nut, they just turned the tables back over and started doing what they had done for 6 centuries.
So your analogy does not work. Jesus had to turn to the gentiles for expansion of his church. The Jews remained an obstacle for the church through the first 100 years and beyond. No change.
At least in the Americas, the golden age of the Mayan people took place. For 250 years after Christ visited the people in Central America, they were not divided into tribes, but were one tribe with Jesus as their center. Then satan continued to pursue his goals and by 450ad there was a total anihilation of the people of Nephi and the rest of the people fell into a downward spiral that existed when Cortez came 1,000 years later.
IOW his visit did make a difference for almost 400 years.
Did you read the last part of my post?:So you say---which still does not answer the question---why then were any plates needed at all? And it doesn't matter at all that they were lost or stolen, does it? For you still have no plates, ---nothing at all was needed to prove the bible. It was written without any golden plates. They did not need any for the REAL GOD spoke to the REAL PROPHETS. The scriptures are stories that the prophets heard directly from God not stories written by any man about what their tribe was doing. That is what makes them scripture. The BOM, at best, are the diaries of men, not the words of God to men. God needs no plates from a unknown people that need a man looking at a stone in a hat translate them. He tells His prophets directly what He wants them to know in their own language., in the vernacular of the time. Not one single prophet throughout history has ever had to have to translate His word. Only Daniel with the handwriting on the wall. And he did not need a single thing to decipher the writing---no stone in a hat, no magic computer--God told him what it meant. That is a God.
Sorry, but your God has never been able to do much right. He can not create from nothing, he is unable to have his command to be fruitful and multiply followed unless they sinned first, he can not speak to his prophet without some golden plates written by men in an unknown language that needs the man to translate them, he was unable to keep his written word from being corrupted by man, he is unable to have children without a wife (or more) and then can not produce one single child that is of the same substance as he is for his children are "spiritual" and must become human to learn how to obey him, he does not save everyone to the same degree---only some can get eternal life in his presence and have something called "increase."......!!!! Ours is able to do all of the above--and He was never human, born from a human woman and man and had to be saved and learn how to become God. Ours always was God. And His one Son, of the same substance, became human in order to save His creation. Nobody on this planet needs y0ou God, we all need and want our God---the REAL GOD OF THE REAL SCRIPTURES!!
You have your story wrong. The golden plates were never stolen, or lost. You make it sound confusing, but it is not confusing.Reality check??? The word of God is not reality enough??? God speaking directly to a prophet is all that the scriptures are! God has never needed any "Golden plates" that need translating. Why didn't God just do what He has done with ALL His prophets, just tell him what He wanted JS to know? And why not tell him through the hat in the first place? And your god can't even keep the golden plates safe and show them to everyone. God wrote His words on stone HIMSELF. He wrote the 10 on stone with His own finger and a whole tribe of over a million people saw them. Not just a few of Moses closest family and friends.
They were known by everyone involved to have existed and still do, they are hidden for now. Yours were stolen, or lost. They were buried to begi9n with, brought out and then buried agsain and then lost? Sorry---just doesn't add up any way you look at it.
Did you read the last part of my post?:
"However, the plates were necessary as proof that a record was kept by those who lived here in the Americas and that Joseph Smith didn't just make it up. That is one of the reasons for the plates and of course the plates were handed down from generation to generation by the people who lived here so they would have guidance from God."
It was also important that the characters from the plates were shown to professor Anton to fulfill the prophecy:
(Old Testament | Isaiah 29:11 - 14)
11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
13 ¶ Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.
I said the manuscript of the Book of Lehi was lost or stolen, not the plates. Joseph Smith had the plates until the angel Moroni called for them after the Book of Mormon was completed.
You have your story wrong. The golden plates were never stolen, or lost. You make it sound confusing, but it is not confusing.
The prophets of the Americas wrote their words as the Holy Spirit spoke to them. Their words were abridged into a smaller record, and the last prophet buried this smaller record which were on gold plates.
When it was time to translate these plates, that same last prophet was instructed by the Lord to enlighten JS as to their reality, and get translating.
After the translation was complete and the witnesses saw what they saw, then JS gave the plates back to the angel (Moroni) that gave them to him and that was the end of the plates.
It is interesting because JS translated only about 1/3 of the plates and was told that the other 2/3 would be translated before the second coming of the Savior. So look for that translation to be coming soon.
There were people still here in the Americas and there is just as much archaeological evidence for the Book of Mormon as there is for the flood. People who don't like the Bible will say it is fiction and people who don't want any more of God's word will say that the Book of Mormon is fiction. I know that neither the Bible or the Book of Mormon is fiction. People have the word of the witnesses to the golden plates and they still won't believe. The witnesses had plenty of time and reason to deny what they had seen, but none of them ever denied what they had seen. However, there are still a lot of people who do not believe in Jesus Christ so it is no wonder there are a lot of people who will not believe in the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ and His gospel in these latter days.The bible required no such thing---faith is in God, not in the writer. Why did JS need to know any of this. If it had actually happened, there would still be people here, there would be archeological evidence---just like there is now for what the bible says. Bible needed no gold plates, for "authenticity." Archeology has proven it right, archeology has no evidence for Lehi's. The Native American did keep records. there are paintings on walls and blankets, and leather, not to mention pottery. There is some evidence that there were Jews that came in some of the ships that landed here. After all, it is said that Columbus was a Jew. Have no idea what you think Isa. is saying that in any way concerns JS or any of his writings. You have shown no reason to even have golden plates. But then for God to allow them to be taken from Him makes even less sense. However, that He Himself would take them away, makes even less sense. Everything is totally contrary to how God has shown He works---the real God, anyway. God never took His only handwritten declaration of His will. The Jews hid them, and Jesus has chosen to leave them where they are until the right time. What God wants the Golden plates for when they would certainly do more good here. Authenticity is needed now for all people---not authenticity so one man, or just a few, can believe. Again, just the 10 commandments on stone were shown to over a million people. But Gold Plates only to a handful? And those words not even the handwritten words of God but the diaries of some men.
There were people still here in the Americas and there is just as much archaeological evidence for the Book of Mormon as there is for the flood. People who don't like the Bible will say it is fiction and people who don't want any more of God's word will say that the Book of Mormon is fiction. I know that neither the Bible or the Book of Mormon is fiction. People have the word of the witnesses to the golden plates and they still won't believe. The witnesses had plenty of time and reason to deny what they had seen, but none of them ever denied what they had seen. However, there are still a lot of people who do not believe in Jesus Christ so it is no wonder there are a lot of people who will not believe in the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ and His gospel in these latter days.
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