Why is scripture so fuzzy about heaven and hell?

Der Alte said:

I have only ever mentioned the Jews before and during the time of Jesus, NOT modern Judism. You guys seem to have a cognitive disconnect about this.

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When did Judaism get rewritten to create "modern Judaism"?

Oh! A pair of comedians.

Der Alte said:

Oh! A pair of comedians.

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You and who else?

Hmm said:

That was a quote from Comrade Alte and not me btw. I know it's often hard to tell us apart

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Not sure how that happened, but was easy to fix.

MMXX said:

When did Judaism get rewritten to create "modern Judaism"?

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You might want to inform yourself. I don't know of any Priests, High Priests, Saduccees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. among Jews today. As I have shown from Jewish sources, which OBTW have not been refuted despite the misdirected attempts to do so. I am well aware that Judaism currently generally does not believe in "hell." But you cannot seem to comprehend that is irrelevant.
Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews [of His day] who believed, e.g.

Hmm said:

Do you ever get weary of always being so offensive and wish you communicated in a civil manner? Your posts are so hate-filled.

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Interesting.

Hmm said:

That was a quote from Comrade Alte and not me btw....

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Der Alte said:

"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" ([Judith xvi:17]Judith xvi. 17). Link: Judith, CHAPTER 16

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When the meat is separated from all the fat, that's pretty much the only morsel of evidence there is. And even that is weak.

Hmm said:

Do you ever get weary of always being so offensive and wish you communicated in a civil manner? Your posts are so hate-filled.

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Brings out the worse in others as well when they start reciprocating.

Hmm said:

A spiritual truth is that we become like the God we worship, and if that's a God who tortures people forever, well, the mind boggles. I've just checked my mind again and it's still boggling.

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One doesn't see that level of scathing contempt and condescension from any other group.

MMXX said:

One doesn't see that level of scathing contempt and condescension from any other group.

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Only surpassed by the UR-crowd insulting those who believe Jesus when He said "And these shall go away into eternal punishment" NOT the ridiculous phrase "age during correction" which doesn't make sense.

Der Alte said:

Only surpassed by the UR-crowd insulting those who believe Jesus when He said "And these shall go away into eternal punishment" NOT the ridiculous phrase "age during correction" which doesn't make sense.

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It's not their fault the damnationist doctrine is built on a word or two used in a symbolic story.

Der Alte said:

Only surpassed by the UR-crowd insulting those who believe Jesus when He said "And these shall go away into eternal punishment" NOT the ridiculous phrase "age during correction" which doesn't make sense.

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Don't you know that when Jesus said "these enemies of mine who would not have me over them, come and slay them before me." what he actually meant was "they'll come around eventually, let's just torture them into compliance and call them saved."

MMXX said:

It's not their fault the damnationist doctrine is built on a word or two used in a symbolic story.

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Total rubbish. Typical UR hocus-pocus whenever scripture contradicts their UR narrative dismiss it as "symbolic." According to the Eastern Greek Orthodox church it ain't symbolic.
Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years +/- ago. Who better than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, the translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], know the correct meaning of the Greek words in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online;
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., first occurrence Matt 25:46 and the second occurrence is 1 John 4:18.
[Indent]EOB 1 John 4:18 here is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[ κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love. [/indent]
Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios” as “eternal,” NOT age.
The Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4;18. Some folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.” However, according to the EOB Greek scholars it means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not and cannot mean “correction.
…..I recognize that modern Greek is different than koine Greek but I am confident that EOB scholars are competent enough to know the meanings of words which may have changed in meaning or have dropped out of use altogether and translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of archaic words which occur in the KJV and translate them correctly.

Fervent said:

Don't you know that when Jesus said "these enemies of mine who would not have me over them, come and slay them before me." what he actually meant was "they'll come around eventually, let's just torture them into compliance and call them saved."

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There's that strawman again.

Der Alte said:

Total rubbish. Typical UR hocus-pocus whenever scripture contradicts their UR narrative dismiss it as "symbolic." According to the Eastern Greek Orthodox church it ain't symbolic.

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”​

Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years +/- ago. Who better than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, the translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], know the correct meaning of the Greek words in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online;
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., first occurrence Matt 25:46 and the second occurrence is 1 John 4:18.
[Indent]EOB 1 John 4:18 here is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[ κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love. [/indent]
Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios” as “eternal,” NOT age.
The Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4;18. Some folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.” However, according to the EOB Greek scholars it means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not and cannot mean “correction.
…..I recognize that modern Greek is different than koine Greek but I am confident that EOB scholars are competent enough to know the meanings of words which may have changed in meaning or have dropped out of use altogether and translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of archaic words which occur in the KJV and translate them correctly.

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There's that spammed template you say nobody reads again.

MMXX said:

It's not their fault the damnationist doctrine is built on a word or two used in a symbolic story.

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I guess all these verses are also "symbolic"]
“aionios” occurs 107x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 40 times in the N.T.[37%]
“aionios” is correctly translated eternal 42 times in the N.T.[39%]
“aionios” is correctly translated everlasting 25 times in the N.T.[23%]
Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times, 26% of the total, Jesus never used “aionios” to refer something common, ordinary or mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”
= = = = = = = = = =
Juxtapose means, the act or an instance of placing two or more things side by side often to compare or contrast.
In twenty four [24] of the following verses αἰώνιος/aionios is defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by paralleling or juxtaposition with other adjectives or descriptive phrases.
= = = = = = = = = =
…..Some people claim that “aionios” never means eternity/eternal/everlasting because it sometimes refer to something which is not eternal, e.g. “world,””age.” etc.
However, “aionios” is never defined/described, by adjectives or descriptive phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament, as in the following 10 verses.
…..Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times. He never used “aionios” to refer to anything common, ordinary or mundane that was not or could not be eternal.
…..In the following ten [10] verses Jesus defines/describes “aionios” as “eternal/for ever/everlasting.”
In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here definitely means eternity.
In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “live forever” with “death.” If “live aiona” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aiona” by definition here means “eternity.”
In this verse Jesus parallels “aiona” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice! Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.
In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See footnote [fn] on “ou mé” below.
In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.
In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “unto aion” with “never see death.” By definition “aion” means eternity.