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OK, whatever you say, champ!
What's the points of the warnings if universalism is biblical?
We're encouraged through chastisement that heaven is worth it.
But we're warned about those not in Christ, that won't inherit the kingdom, and the smoke of their torment will rise up for ever and ever.
What's the points of the warnings if universalism is biblical?
We're encouraged through chastisement that heaven is worth it.
But we're warned about those not in Christ, that won't inherit the kingdom, and the smoke of their torment will rise up for ever and ever.
All of that is abundantly known to universalists. Including PhD Bible scholar theologian universalists. It's not easily dismissed when one knows all the particulars.
This is a pretty good lecture by a well known respected Bible teacher, who is not a universalist.
I dunno man... it's seems pretty easy to dismiss by those who don't seem to understand what a parable is.
Yes, being a literalist means you have to resort to theological gymnastics to rationalise all the problematic things in scripture. This makes the Bible inaccessible whereas Christ taught in accessible parables to the common people.
Leaving a parable as a parable means anyone can pick up the book, see the problem and the solution together regardless of translation or version and without becoming delusional trying to believe all kinds of contradictory things such as ALL doesn't mean ALL and an English translation is more accurate than the original Greek.
If it's all a warning, it kind of defeats the purpose to have it real meaning of everything hidden.
Only thing is, Christ taught in parables, so that not just anyone could understand... and those parables have done their job very well.
Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Mat 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
And he continues to speak to the multitude in parables, but those who don't understand the parables, will swear blind that they understand what he is saying.
God does not hide, God reveals Himself
that's why we have a bible.
It's God revealing His will.
and that includes warning of the consequences of our sin.
and if inspired scripture says tormented for ever and ever...
then that's what I believe.
Only thing is, Christ taught in parables, so that not just anyone could understand... and those parables have done their job very well.
Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Mat 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
And he continues to speak to the multitude in parables, but those who don't understand the parables, will swear blind that they understand what he is saying.
Revelation was not a parable.
and not everything Jesus said was a parable.
Jesus was not speaking in parables when he talked about Judas betraying him and it'd be better for Judas if he'd never been born.
It's something else that has complexity then!
When the apostles asked Jesus why he speaks in parables, he says "This is why I speak to them in parables: 'Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.'"
I wonder if this actually supports the idea.of universalism? Jesus comes to brings truth to us but he conceals himself from many/most us at the same time. So right here on Earth can't be the place where many of us will understand God.
The basic Team Hell argument is "Jesus gave us everything we need to believe and get to heaven so it's our own fault if we don't make it. And there's no more development after this life because God will be done with you and will have switched from forgiving Father into torturing mode." But if Jesus kept truth away from many of us then this argument is shown to be false. A more consistent argument is that this life is just the first step and there's a lot more truth to come.
So you worship a literal four footed barn animal then, do you?
Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Mat 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
Mar 4:33 And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it.
Mar 4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.
Don't argue ad absurdium.
Revelation explains its own symbols.
and look at the last clause of the quotation from Mark. When they were alone He expounded all things. He explained the parables to them. Many of Jesus' parables are explained in the text. Jesus was not without revealing to those who believe in Him. To those who didn't believe in Him, he spoke in nonsense parables and they couldn't always figure out what they meant (however sometimes they did, and the Pharisees wanted to kill him right then and there when Jesus told them the parable of the wicked husbandmen and they picked up it was referring to them), but to his disciples who believed in Him, Jesus explained what the parables meant when they asked Him.
So, he predestined the vast majority for ECT? (eternal conscious torment)Jesus Himself warned that few would find Him.
That is actually a good point. I need to think about that. Thanks.There is little meaning to salvation if we are not saved FROM something.
How can you say that after I posted this?Not everyone goes to Heaven, Universalism is unbiblical and false attack on Jesus Christ.
Revelation explains it's own symbols? You really don't know what you are talking about, man.
So, he predestined the vast majority for ECT? (eternal conscious torment)
Made our eternal destiny a game, a puzzle to solve, with dire consequences for the losers?
Then why did you say, "few there be that find it"?it's a game so simple a child can figure it out if you want to look at it as a game.
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