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I'll not hesitate to call that totally wishy washy. Jesus has given us clear instructions on how to find him and he's made the first move to bring us home.
Cool, well I think it's been posted before. Anyway, the Bible according to my understanding frames Satan as a bad guy. It's all there for anyone to read.
Sounds like a d&d religionjust curious, did you know that satan is described as a dragon?
Ok but if were assuming it's real we should assume it's all real: like God is just, God doesn't sin, God gave his own life etc - because the Bible is all related.
And even if you don't believe the creator is right, isn't blaming him for the consequences of our own rebellion a bit like slamming the door on mom and dad when you're 11 and screaming "I wish I had never been born!"
What's the solution here guys? Do you want god to unmake you?
Any analogy where God is a mafia boss doesn't work for me. God is love.
You're assuming God was a little bit evil and therefore Satan was kinda justified, but it's not true.
Come on man, if you theorise God made everything etc, why do you theorise him to have flaws? He's much more likely in my eyes, to be perfect.
He doesn't.
Nope. If we met those requirements inherently we would be perfectly without sin and thus not human at all, in any recognizable capacity.
No, saved from the consequences of our own sins.
So you're in favor of just granting people anything they want for no reason even if they not only don't deserve it, but actively refuse your gift?
This kind of attitude always reminds me of a bratty little child:
"I want an ice cream! I want an ice cream!"
"Sorry, little Timmy, you were bad and threw a temper tantrum and made a mess in the kitchen earlier, so you don't deserve an ice cream."
"But I want one!"
"Well, okay, just because I'm being so nice, I'll forgive you. You can have an ice cream, as long as you apologize for what you did earlier."
But the atheist goes:
"No, I don' wanna' 'pologize! I didn't do nothin' wrong! Gimme my ice cream!"
And then they say it's unfair that they don't get one.
So, you don't believe in hell?
I know some christian denominations don't believe in hell.
In any case, all christian denominations have some kind of "saved" concept. Which means there still is the notion of "not being saved".
So the he created rules and requirements and then created us in such a way that we would be unable to live upto it?
Those consequences were decided and installed by him. It's his system, his rules, his requirements, his reward and his punishment.
Furthermore, he created us in such a way that it would be impossible for us NOT to sin.
A direct analogy would be me building a room deep underground with no access to the outside world whatsoever, locking you in there for a year and then punishing you when you fail to tell me what the weather is like on the surface of the planet. Purely by virtue of defining "sin" as "not being able to tell what the wheater is like".
It's ridiculous. It's punishing humans for being humans.
I am in favor of fairness and judging people on the actual life they lead, not what stories they decide to believe.
The rest of what you wrote, is really a reach and misses the main point.
There is a Hell but it's not a place of everlasting torment for human souls. That's an idea that was invented by the church later and is not supported by the original scriptures.
Yes, and it's entirely your choice.
We are finite beings by definition and don't inherently deserve eternal life, yes. But he offered it to us anyway, it's your own choice to reject it.
If if were impossible for us to sin then we would be mindless automatons. Is that what you want?
Is allowing human lives to end (which is the natural consequence of mortal lives) somehow a punishment? You might as well say that being human is a punishment for being human, that makes no sense.
So what have you done that makes you think that God owes you eternal life?
Not really, it's quite an apt analogy.
There is a Hell but it's not a place of everlasting torment for human souls. That's an idea that was invented by the church later and is not supported by the original scriptures.
Yes, and it's entirely your choice.
We are finite beings by definition and don't inherently deserve eternal life, yes. But he offered it to us anyway, it's your own choice to reject it.
If if were impossible for us to sin then we would be mindless automatons. Is that what you want?
Is allowing human lives to end (which is the natural consequence of mortal lives) somehow a punishment? You might as well say that being human is a punishment for being human, that makes no sense.
If you can show me that the possibility of eternal life is real, I could answer your question better.
My discussion, is around the Christian dogma and how people are judged; on their beliefs, as opposed to the quality of life they live. I believe this is immoral and self serving and highly likely, to be a fairy tale.
You are aware, I assume, that lots of denominations (many followers of which are on this board), that wouldn't agree with that?
No, it's not. Belief is not a choice.
This doesn't make any sense. I'm not even sure how to respond to it. If he created everything then why would there be any "rules" about what created thing "deserves" created things?
Clearly, if we are not worthy then it is because he decided to create us unworthy. I don't have ny choice here. It's all his game.
It's like if I would create a traffic network where all lights are permantly locked on the red light and then implement a fining system that punishes everyone that crosses a red light. And then pretend that they had a "choice". They didn't. When red is the only option, you don't have a "choice" of waiting till its green.
Missing the point. The point is that, according to the theology, it is inherently impossible to NOT sin.
According to the theology, he created us with flaws and then holds the flaws against us.
I don't know what you are responding too. It can't be anything I said, because I never made a point remotely like that.
I've heard on here once or twice that we make a choice to get saved or not.
It is not a choice.
A choice is to pick something from the available options. To me believing in God is not an available option because there is nothing out there to verify his existence. If there was evidence that he exists then I am in a better position to make the choice.
John 20:29 said:Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
The reality is, if God does indeed exist then he is actually taking away my ability to make a choice. He is hindering my free will to choose because he hasn't made a case for his own existence. Until he does that, belief in him is not an option.
I'm not making a choice not to believe. I physically cannot believe the myth, the magic, the talking snake, the talking donkey, people turning into salt, dead people coming back to life, people living in big fish etc. I'm not choosing to dismiss it.. it's automatically dismissed as a possible option.
So yeah, if your God is real.. he isn't putting himself forward as an option for me to choose. And therefore by extension he is happy to see me go to hell for eternity because I can't believe extraordinary claims when there is no evidence .
Your loving God could prevent that in a second.... But he chooses not to
Luke 16:31 said:And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
If you don't accept the possibility of eternal life, why are you complaining that you can't have it?
What finite action on earth would deserve an eternal reward in Heaven?
Yeah, I've debated this stuff with them before. I'm aware my position isn't the most popular.
So you say, but you probably have made choices to believe certain things regarding your worldview, ethics, and such that you don't even realize.
It's basic logic. Humans are finite beings by definition - we are born, we grow older, and we die. Living eternally is not our natural state.
So you would prefer to be something completely inhuman then, an eternal, unchanging being with no concept of mortality? That would not even be comparable to a human in how it thinks?
Not getting what you want for free just because you demand it =/= punishment.
You want your ability and propensity to sin removed?
Fine then, you're no longer a human being - you're a mindless (or at least completely psychologically alien) creature, completely unable to identify with any of the thoughts or ideas you had as a human. In effect you no longer exist, you have been destroyed and replaced with a completely different entity. Do you want that?
Of course you did. You said that God is punishing people for being human, by letting them die, even though that is part of what defines us as humans.
Of course it is. You have to have faith.
That's called being closed-minded.
No one is going to Hell for eternity.
I don't believe I have ever complained about not having eternal life, because it likely does not exist, IMO.
What I have critiqued, is the typical Christian belief of who gets eternal life and how I believe, it is immoral.
If you think it's immoral that believers in Christ are granted eternal life and you are not, then you must desire eternal life for yourself. If you don't, then you wouldn't care.
Not quite.
I am critiquing how some decide to judge others and buy the story that the judgment is moral. Nothing to do with a desire I have for something I don't believe exists.
Being unable to even consider it does.
This isn't true. The belief that a certain category of people are determined to languish in eternal hell is an endorsement of torture. That kind of contemptible statement should not go unchallenged.If you think it's immoral that believers in Christ are granted eternal life and you are not, then you must desire eternal life for yourself. If you don't, then you wouldn't care.
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