Why is pornography wrong?

[Galatea]

About a happy polygynous man, does it matter? You think every monogamous marriage was bliss in scripture? A possible life of emotional misery doesn't make for a forbidding of polygyny. I will humor you though, and say that Gideon and Samuel's father are two examples of men where their large families weren't an issue.

Can you be more specific about the verses commanding as a point of law to have only one wife in Proverbs? I don't remember any.

The Bible doesn't teach "one woman, one man". Do you think God was committing adultery or describing himself in sinful terms when he was referring to his own multiple wives?

Reread about Samuel's family. Hannah was not very happy. Do you think Elkanah was very happy, seeing Hannah was depressed? Here's a man with two women- one who is Hannah's adversary, provoking her sore (Bible says this, not me). How happy can Elkanah be? He's got two women- one picking on the other. One who is depressed and crying all the time. What a happy home that must have been! Besides, Elkanah was not happy- he tried to cheer Hannah up I Samuel 1:8 "Then said Elkanah her husband to her, Hannah, why weepest thou? And why eatest thou not? And why is thy heart grieved? Am not I better to ther than ten sons?"

He doesn't sound like a very happy man, to my way of thinking. Picture it: you are married to two women, one mean and one depressed. A miserable time is had by all.

Besides, Hannah might not have been so heart sore for a baby if she had her husband all to herself.

 

[redstang281]

Redstang281, not many people I come across are able to look past their biases, prejudices, and assumptions into what the scripture is actually teaching, but you are exactly right in what you wrote there. Peace bro.

Thanks, church indoctrination on this topic is thick so I don't blame people for being caught up in it. I too wanted to be a good little christian and believe everything my Pastor said until one day I discovered a couple big errors they had taught and after that I started questioning everything.

This site helped wake me up on the sex topic.
Bible Topic Study: Matthew 5:28 Lust and Adultery

Imagine all the good the body of Christ could be doing if we weren't wasting 90% our time worrying about if some dude is looking at a naked lady on the internet...

 

[redstang281]

Reread about Samuel's family. Hannah was not very happy. Do you think Elkanah was very happy, seeing Hannah was depressed? Here's a man with two women- one who is Hannah's adversary, provoking her sore (Bible says this, not me). How happy can Elkanah be? He's got two women- one picking on the other. One who is depressed and crying all the time. What a happy home that must have been! Besides, Elkanah was not happy- he tried to cheer Hannah up I Samuel 1:8 "Then said Elkanah her husband to her, Hannah, why weepest thou? And why eatest thou not? And why is thy heart grieved? Am not I better to ther than ten sons?"

He doesn't sound like a very happy man, to my way of thinking. Picture it: you are married to two women, one mean and one depressed. A miserable time is had by all.

Besides, Hannah might not have been so heart sore for a baby if she had her husband all to herself.

I have two kids and they fight a lot, does that prove it's wrong to have more than one kid?

 

[Torino]

Galatea,

You're reaching. You can't attribute every ill a family experiences to polygyny, and every blessing to monogamy. As you point out, Hannah's sadness was because of her barrenness, the same for her husband's concern for her. That he had more than one wife had nothing to do with this.

 

[Torino]

Redstang281,

Awesome man, I have seen Godrules' videos and articles before, he is indeed one of very few online who tries to be intellectually honest on these topics.

And I agree, we'd all be getting a lot more done if we weren't all straining at gnats.

 

[EmethAlethia]

What is the rational explanation about why pornography is wrong?

First, you are assuming it is wrong. And, if that is your assumption, you are correct.

1st: Whatever is not from faith is sin. (Rom. 14:28) This means that if you believe:

1. Eating pizza on Sundays, meat other than fish on Fridays … then it is a sin … for you.
   
   
2. If you believe playing cards is a sin … it is a sin … for you.
   
   
3. If you believe that dancing is a sin … it is a sin … for you.

2nd: Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth … God created sexual desire … He meant for us to “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth.” Most humans, male and female both, have the desires, or, if you will, lusts built into them by God.

3rd: Ungodly lusts / the lusts of the world are different than Godly lusts. (Yes, I did just use Godly with the word lust.)

1. Ungodly lusts are those that “RESULT IN” a violation of God’s precepts / commands on the issue.
   
   
2. Godly lusts are desires that haven’t yet resulted in a violation of God’s commands and teachings on the issue of fornication yet. How can I say this? Definition of words and terms:

1. Fornication: (Pornea) 1st, you can’t take our modern word pornography and force that meaning into the word pornea(fornication). The word means illicit sexual intercourse. And includes homosexuality, bestiality, adultery and pre-marital sex. Each one of those is an instance of fornication. Jesus was accused of being born of pornea(fornication). And I am sorry, but no one ever got pregnant “from” looking at pictures, movies … maybe “while” looking, but not from looking. To try and force the meaning of pornography into the word pornea is like trying to force the meaning pneumatic (air powered) onto the Holy Spirit (again, Pneuma). In which case, how long an air hose does the Holy Spirit use, what sized compressor powers Him … And no, I am not being disrespectful of the Holy Spirit like those that disrespect the Word of God are when they try and force modern meanings onto biblical passages.
   
   
2. 1 Corinthians chapter 7 some keys:
   1. First, this is not a passage of “commandments of God”, this is a passage about what God recommends, and why He recommends it. Those that don’t believe this is “God’s opinion” and don’t believe Paul had the Holy Spirit guiding him to write these things need to discard the majority of their New Testaments. The writings are God’s opinions on the topic of sex, marriage, divorce …
      
      
   2. Verse 1 and 2. From the context, the touching in verse 1 is what leads up to the illicit sexual intercourse mentioned in verse 2. We are told to “try” and avoid “touching” a woman in the way that leads up to verse 2. However, that’s what getting married is for. If you can’t keep your hands to yourself, and you are in danger of not keeping other things to yourself, GET MARRIED!
      1. But realize that if you do, your spouse has 100% complete control over you sexually. Whenever, wherever, however … with the exclusion of violations of laws, and other violations of the meaning of fornication. (We are commanded to follow the laws of the land after all.)
         
         
      2. But marriage is NOT God’s best. Being unencumbered to serve the Lord is God’s BEST. 7:7, 26, 35, 40
         
         
      3. In verse 1, it’s the touching that inflames the desire to do the actions that result in we humans “being fruitful and multiplying and filling the earth”. And getting married is a requirement for those who are losing “self-control” in this area, and are burning with passion(lust). Vs. 9.
         
         
      4. 7:36 Again, if you are acting unbecomingly, touching, inflaming passions … GET MARRIED. Vs. 37 If you cannot stand firm, if you cannot avoid touching, if you cannot exercise self-control, and you have authority over your own will, it is better that you do not get married. Marriage is for the rest of us.
         
         
      5. So are these kinds of desires, touching, inflaming burning passions … sin, according to the word of God? 1Co 7:36 But if any man thinks that he is acting unbecomingly toward his virgin daughter, if she is past her youth, and if it must be so, let him do what he wishes, he does not sin; let her marry.
         
         
      6. God doesn’t consider this process to be sin. He considers it a part of His design. The part that isn’t His design is where “Fornication” intercourse outside of God’s proscribed boundaries.
         
         
      7. Here’s the rub. Look at the context. Look at the meaning. In this verse the writer calls “singleness”, as in the ability to avoid touching, inflaming passions, self-control in this area … as a gift from God. From the context, what is the “other” area of giftedness that is discussed in this passage? “1Co 7:7 Yet I wish that all men were even as I myself am. However, each man has his own gift from God, one in this manner, and another in that.” Guess what the other “Gift from God is”? It’s the gift of these desires to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. God’s gift of “needing” to get married.
   3. So you haven’t ever heard a sermon on this before? All lust is sin? Not according to God. Touching, inflaming passions … is it sin? According to God, in this passage, until you cross the line to fornication, you haven’t sinned … I suggest you look up the passage about defrauding as well though. Even dating, if you do not have desires like this, “could” be defrauding. But then I left the topic of pornography, didn’t I ?

4th: Pornography (Modern definition), Masturbation, … : Are all strangely missing from scripture. Not one word. Not one comment. Even in a society where almost every Roman household was full of graphic art depicting all kinds of things. Want a picture of what this was like, look up all of the art from Pompeii, which was destroyed in 79 AD.

5th: What about Mat 5:28? : If a man looks at a woman to dwell on lust with her he has committed adultery with her in his heart. Doesn’t this contradict 1 Cor. 7? Nope.

1. Some keys to understanding Mat. 5:28 are in the words used.

1. Is the word εμοιχευσεν (adultery: used in Mat. 5:28) the same as πορνειας(fornication: Not used in Mat. 5:28)? Nope. Completely different meaning. Adultery(μοιχεύω) is a specific form of fornication(πορνεία). But adultery REQUIRES a woman already married to another living man to be involved to commit it.
   
   
2. Think about it. David had between 18 and 26 wives, minimum. When does God say he committed adultery? How many times does God say David committed adultery? Solomon, how many times does God say Solomon committed adultery? Zero, right? Look at Ezekiel 23. God takes multiple wives. Does He say He committed adultery? Nope. They went out and committed fornication/adultery with others not their husband. They committed adultery.
   
   
3. More important words in Mat. 5:28: The ONLY way to indicate married woman in Greek is with the word used here. That coupled with the choice of the word adultery, and not fornication, indicates that this is an instance where a man is gazing at a woman married to another man, to dwell on his lusts for her. This is all that this verse refers to. You can’t “change” the meaning to include non-married women because you “want” it to mean that. You can’t include artwork. This “mental” adultery REQUIRES you be in close enough proximity to dwell on lust with a woman married to someone else but you.
   
   
4. But what about all the other verses in the New testament that mention what adultery is. They all REQUIRE the destruction of an existing marriage relationship to form another one, either by intercourse or by divorce. Adding wives (Not married to another living man), is not spoken against. Divorcing a current spouse to marry someone else, is spoken against. Of course, obeying the laws of the land is something all Christians are commanded to do, unless obedience requires them to violate a command of God.
   
   So what does all of this mean? God doesn’t state an opinion on graphic depictions of sex, even though artwork of this type was prominent even centuries before Christ. God doesn’t say how many cars you can have either. So is pornography sin? Certainly the vast majority of it does involve people committing fornication / sin. But then a lot of scripture also describes sin in detail as well. There are many graphic novels that leave nothing to the imagination and are much more erotic than much pornography. But then, what were the intentions of those making all of the erotic art in Jesus time? Was there any difference? I don't see it. Yet there is silence. Could it be that God doesn't care about art, "dirty" pictures and movies ... but only in the actual relationships and interactions between people? I see the clear commands pertaining to committing adultery, homosexuality, bestiality, premarital intercourse ... but I see nothing pertaining to the issue of pornography. Remember, Solomon had how many wives? How many kids by them? What was his sexual sin according to scripture? (Not according to what men want to claim without any data whatsoever to confirm it.) Solomon sinned by taking foreign wives. It is the same admonition found in 1 Cor. 7;39 Get married to whoever you want, but ONLY to Christians. Guess what that means. NEVER date a non-Christian.

But … that said, again ... whatever is not from faith is sin. If you believe that looking at nudity, woman’s undies, … is a sin, it is for you. Unless you are absolutely 100% positive that something is not a sin, it is a sin for you. If you aren't sure, if you haven't done as I have done and haven't the examined absolutely every passage you can find, and that others have found, and haven't come to the exact same conclusions I have, then it is sin ... for you.

 

[EmethAlethia]

While the king was on his couch, my nard gave forth its fragrance. My beloved is to me a bag of myrrh that lies between my breasts.

With great delight I sat in his shadow, and his fruit was sweet to my taste. He brought me to the banqueting house, and his intention toward me was love. Sustain me with raisins, refresh me with apples; for I am faint with love. O that his left hand were under my head, and that his right hand embraced me!

Your lips distill nectar, my bride; honey and milk are under your tongue; the scent of your garments is like the scent of Lebanon. A garden locked is my sister, my bride, a garden locked, a fountain sealed. Your channel is an orchard of pomegranates with all choicest fruits, henna with nard, nard and saffron, calamus and cinnamon, with all trees of frankincense, myrrh and aloes, with all chief spices– a garden fountain, a well of living water, and flowing streams from Lebanon. Awake, O north wind, and come, O south wind! Blow upon my garden that its fragrance may be wafted abroad. Let my beloved come to his garden, and eat its choicest fruits….

How graceful are your feet in sandals, O queenly maiden! Your rounded thighs are like jewels, the work of a master hand. Your navel is a rounded bowl that never lacks mixed wine. Your belly is a heap of wheat, encircled with lilies. Your two breasts are like two fawns, twins of a gazelle. Your neck is like an ivory tower. Your eyes are pools in Heshbon, by the gate of Bath-rabbim. Your nose is like a tower of Lebanon, overlooking Damascus. Your head crowns you like Carmel, and your flowing locks are like purple; a king is held captive in the tresses. How fair and pleasant you are, O loved one, delectable maiden! You are stately as a palm tree, and your breasts are like its clusters. I say I will climb the palm tree and lay hold of its branches. Oh, may your breasts be like clusters of the vine, and the scent of your breath like apples, and your kisses like the best wine that goes down smoothly, gliding over lips and teeth. I am my beloved’s, and his desire is for me. Come, my beloved, let us go forth into the fields, and lodge in the villages; let us go out early to the vineyards, and see whether the vines have budded, whether the grape blossoms have opened and the pomegranates are in bloom. There I will give you my love.

Sorry... got hot in here all of a sudden... LOL Vividly imagined is vividly imagined. Be it God's telling His people to kill every man, woman and child, watching a man in a movie being depicted as being blown up by a land mine in a war movie ... It is all the same in our mind. Including the Song of Solomon. Sorry ... going to take a break and read some scripture to my wife ... I'm sure we will feel edified ...

 

[Torino]

EmethAlethia, that was a great post and I agree with it overall. Bringing up the "whatever is not of faith is sin" is a primary principle. God bless bro.

 

[EmethAlethia]

It sure is. Sin = doing what God says not to do, Not doing what He says to do when He says to do it, and not knowing for sure one way or the other, and being unwilling to take the time, make the effort, do the manual labor of gathering every single passage that might apply, cutting every piece out straight, holding to a consistent meaning for all words and terms as they are used throughout the scriptures, including context, flow of discussion, flow of thought surrounding each and every passage ...

But then ... holding fast to opinions and beliefs and gathering what we can "use" to prove our beliefs true, and what we can "use" to prove all opposing beliefs false, and then interpreting everything in the light of our beliefs is so much easier. Plus, we can usually just get all that "selected" data and the interpretations as well, from those that agree with us with almost no work whatsoever.

""Most people" "honestly" seek after truth the way "most people" "honestly" seek after things to step into in the farm yard. Come to think of it, they seem to have a similar reaction when they find it as well." Me 1997

 

[redstang281]

First, you are assuming it is wrong. And, if that is your assumption, you are correct.

1st: Whatever is not from faith is sin. (Rom. 14:28) This means that if you believe:

1. Eating pizza on Sundays, meat other than fish on Fridays … then it is a sin … for you.
   
   
2. If you believe playing cards is a sin … it is a sin … for you.
   
   
3. If you believe that dancing is a sin … it is a sin … for you.

First, just wanted to say this is a really great post you have made. I want to get your opinion on some of my thoughts relating to what you have said.

To your point above I had the thought that maybe the devil wants sex to be thought of as sinful because completely abstaining from sex is incredibly difficult for the majority of people. That way the devil can cause us to sin more!

Fornication: (Pornea) 1st, you can’t take our modern word pornography and force that meaning into the word pornea(fornication). The word means illicit sexual intercourse. And includes homosexuality, bestiality, adultery and pre-marital sex. Each one of those is an instance of fornication. Jesus was accused of being born of pornea(fornication).

Are you sure that fornication in the Bible includes premarital sex? The reason I ask is I don't see anywhere in the Bible that specifically says that.

I don't mean to say that I am advocating it or that I want premarital sex not to be a sin, I'm married anyway so doesn't matter to me. I am just interested in the truth because I don't want to put burdens on people that shouldn't be on them and I know in our society where people don't get married until their 30s due to college and careers that it can be very hard to wait so long to have sex. I also know premarital sex comes with its own set of potential consequences but that in itself doesn't necessarily mean its a sin.

Leviticus chapter 18 is the only place in the Bible with a list of sexual sins and premarital sex is not there.

Here in Exodus 22 no one gets stoned for having premarital sex they just have to pay the dowry and marry the girl. Although I'm not sure if the marriage was a punishment, it looks to me that it assumes he wants to marry the girl.

16 “If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife. 17 If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he must still pay the bride-price for virgins.

Also look here at Deuteronomy chapter 21. God gives permission to a guy to find a hot girl, take her home to play house and give her a couple spins and then if he isn't happy just kick her out and then there's nothing more to be said about it just don't sell her to make a profit. We Christians tell people not to live together before marriage right?

10-14 When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the Lord thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.

1. 1 Corinthians chapter 7 some keys:
   1. First, this is not a passage of “commandments of God”, this is a passage about what God recommends, and why He recommends it. Those that don’t believe this is “God’s opinion” and don’t believe Paul had the Holy Spirit guiding him to write these things need to discard the majority of their New Testaments. The writings are God’s opinions on the topic of sex, marriage, divorce …

I think the thing that is Paul's opinion in 1 Corinthians chapter 7 is the verse after..

6 I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7 I wish that all of you were as I am. But each of you has your own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.

Like you said God's best is to be single so you have more time and resources to devote to him.

The rest of the chapter should be considered a command, that we should each have our own spouse for sexual fulfillment instead of doing sexual immorality. But it looks like from chapter 5 that the specific sexual immorality that was being answered was incest/adultery not premarital sex. So I think the point is theft, instead of enjoying someone else's wife you should get your own.

It's also interesting to me that the parts of this chapter about wives always being available to their husbands is often ignored by churches but then if a man looks at porno because his wife ignores his needs he gets crucified.

 

[Galatea]

I have two kids and they fight a lot, does that prove it's wrong to have more than one kid?

If you have two wives and one is mean to the other, and one is depressed it means you are a horrible husband and not doing a good job keeping either one of them happy. Neither one feels loved. The Bible said Elkanah loved Hannah, but she was not eating, crying all the time, and had bitterness of heart because she didn't have a baby. The Bible does not say the Elkanah loved Peniah, maybe that is the reason why she was mean to Hannah. Jealousy can sure make women turn into mean cats.

The Bible says to love your wife as your own flesh. So, would you want your wife to bring in another man? Would you feel happy about this arrangement, sharing your wife?

Do unto others as you would have done unto you.

 

[Galatea]

Galatea,

You're reaching. You can't attribute every ill a family experiences to polygyny, and every blessing to monogamy. As you point out, Hannah's sadness was because of her barrenness, the same for her husband's concern for her. That he had more than one wife had nothing to do with this.

Torino,
You're reaching if you think Samuel's family life was a happy one. It sounds like a bunch of drama, to me. Elkanah asks her "Aren't I better than ten sons?" She should have said "You are only half a husband."

The Bible says that Peniah was Hannah's adversary and provoked her sore. This means Peniah was her enemy and constantly was mean to her.

What if your wife was married to you and another man? And the other man made fun of you because you were not able to have children, or didn't make that much money, etc.? Would that make for an A-1 happy home?

 

[Galatea]

First, you are assuming it is wrong. And, if that is your assumption, you are correct.

1st: Whatever is not from faith is sin. (Rom. 14:28) This means that if you believe:

1. Eating pizza on Sundays, meat other than fish on Fridays … then it is a sin … for you.
   
   
2. If you believe playing cards is a sin … it is a sin … for you.
   
   
3. If you believe that dancing is a sin … it is a sin … for you.

2nd: Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth … God created sexual desire … He meant for us to “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth.” Most humans, male and female both, have the desires, or, if you will, lusts built into them by God.

3rd: Ungodly lusts / the lusts of the world are different than Godly lusts. (Yes, I did just use Godly with the word lust.)

1. Ungodly lusts are those that “RESULT IN” a violation of God’s precepts / commands on the issue.
   
   
2. Godly lusts are desires that haven’t yet resulted in a violation of God’s commands and teachings on the issue of fornication yet. How can I say this? Definition of words and terms:

1. Fornication: (Pornea) 1st, you can’t take our modern word pornography and force that meaning into the word pornea(fornication). The word means illicit sexual intercourse. And includes homosexuality, bestiality, adultery and pre-marital sex. Each one of those is an instance of fornication. Jesus was accused of being born of pornea(fornication). And I am sorry, but no one ever got pregnant “from” looking at pictures, movies … maybe “while” looking, but not from looking. To try and force the meaning of pornography into the word pornea is like trying to force the meaning pneumatic (air powered) onto the Holy Spirit (again, Pneuma). In which case, how long an air hose does the Holy Spirit use, what sized compressor powers Him … And no, I am not being disrespectful of the Holy Spirit like those that disrespect the Word of God are when they try and force modern meanings onto biblical passages.
   
   
2. 1 Corinthians chapter 7 some keys:
   1. First, this is not a passage of “commandments of God”, this is a passage about what God recommends, and why He recommends it. Those that don’t believe this is “God’s opinion” and don’t believe Paul had the Holy Spirit guiding him to write these things need to discard the majority of their New Testaments. The writings are God’s opinions on the topic of sex, marriage, divorce …
      
      
   2. Verse 1 and 2. From the context, the touching in verse 1 is what leads up to the illicit sexual intercourse mentioned in verse 2. We are told to “try” and avoid “touching” a woman in the way that leads up to verse 2. However, that’s what getting married is for. If you can’t keep your hands to yourself, and you are in danger of not keeping other things to yourself, GET MARRIED!
      1. But realize that if you do, your spouse has 100% complete control over you sexually. Whenever, wherever, however … with the exclusion of violations of laws, and other violations of the meaning of fornication. (We are commanded to follow the laws of the land after all.)
         
         
      2. But marriage is NOT God’s best. Being unencumbered to serve the Lord is God’s BEST. 7:7, 26, 35, 40
         
         
      3. In verse 1, it’s the touching that inflames the desire to do the actions that result in we humans “being fruitful and multiplying and filling the earth”. And getting married is a requirement for those who are losing “self-control” in this area, and are burning with passion(lust). Vs. 9.
         
         
      4. 7:36 Again, if you are acting unbecomingly, touching, inflaming passions … GET MARRIED. Vs. 37 If you cannot stand firm, if you cannot avoid touching, if you cannot exercise self-control, and you have authority over your own will, it is better that you do not get married. Marriage is for the rest of us.
         
         
      5. So are these kinds of desires, touching, inflaming burning passions … sin, according to the word of God? 1Co 7:36 But if any man thinks that he is acting unbecomingly toward his virgin daughter, if she is past her youth, and if it must be so, let him do what he wishes, he does not sin; let her marry.
         
         
      6. God doesn’t consider this process to be sin. He considers it a part of His design. The part that isn’t His design is where “Fornication” intercourse outside of God’s proscribed boundaries.
         
         
      7. Here’s the rub. Look at the context. Look at the meaning. In this verse the writer calls “singleness”, as in the ability to avoid touching, inflaming passions, self-control in this area … as a gift from God. From the context, what is the “other” area of giftedness that is discussed in this passage? “1Co 7:7 Yet I wish that all men were even as I myself am. However, each man has his own gift from God, one in this manner, and another in that.” Guess what the other “Gift from God is”? It’s the gift of these desires to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. God’s gift of “needing” to get married.
   3. So you haven’t ever heard a sermon on this before? All lust is sin? Not according to God. Touching, inflaming passions … is it sin? According to God, in this passage, until you cross the line to fornication, you haven’t sinned … I suggest you look up the passage about defrauding as well though. Even dating, if you do not have desires like this, “could” be defrauding. But then I left the topic of pornography, didn’t I ?

4th: Pornography (Modern definition), Masturbation, … : Are all strangely missing from scripture. Not one word. Not one comment. Even in a society where almost every Roman household was full of graphic art depicting all kinds of things. Want a picture of what this was like, look up all of the art from Pompeii, which was destroyed in 79 AD.

5th: What about Mat 5:28? : If a man looks at a woman to dwell on lust with her he has committed adultery with her in his heart. Doesn’t this contradict 1 Cor. 7? Nope.

1. Some keys to understanding Mat. 5:28 are in the words used.

1. Is the word εμοιχευσεν (adultery: used in Mat. 5:28) the same as πορνειας(fornication: Not used in Mat. 5:28)? Nope. Completely different meaning. Adultery(μοιχεύω) is a specific form of fornication(πορνεία). But adultery REQUIRES a woman already married to another living man to be involved to commit it.
   
   
2. Think about it. David had between 18 and 26 wives, minimum. When does God say he committed adultery? How many times does God say David committed adultery? Solomon, how many times does God say Solomon committed adultery? Zero, right? Look at Ezekiel 23. God takes multiple wives. Does He say He committed adultery? Nope. They went out and committed fornication/adultery with others not their husband. They committed adultery.
   
   
3. More important words in Mat. 5:28: The ONLY way to indicate married woman in Greek is with the word used here. That coupled with the choice of the word adultery, and not fornication, indicates that this is an instance where a man is gazing at a woman married to another man, to dwell on his lusts for her. This is all that this verse refers to. You can’t “change” the meaning to include non-married women because you “want” it to mean that. You can’t include artwork. This “mental” adultery REQUIRES you be in close enough proximity to dwell on lust with a woman married to someone else but you.
   
   
4. But what about all the other verses in the New testament that mention what adultery is. They all REQUIRE the destruction of an existing marriage relationship to form another one, either by intercourse or by divorce. Adding wives (Not married to another living man), is not spoken against. Divorcing a current spouse to marry someone else, is spoken against. Of course, obeying the laws of the land is something all Christians are commanded to do, unless obedience requires them to violate a command of God.
   
   So what does all of this mean? God doesn’t state an opinion on graphic depictions of sex, even though artwork of this type was prominent even centuries before Christ. God doesn’t say how many cars you can have either. So is pornography sin? Certainly the vast majority of it does involve people committing fornication / sin. But then a lot of scripture also describes sin in detail as well. There are many graphic novels that leave nothing to the imagination and are much more erotic than much pornography. But then, what were the intentions of those making all of the erotic art in Jesus time? Was there any difference? I don't see it. Yet there is silence. Could it be that God doesn't care about art, "dirty" pictures and movies ... but only in the actual relationships and interactions between people? I see the clear commands pertaining to committing adultery, homosexuality, bestiality, premarital intercourse ... but I see nothing pertaining to the issue of pornography. Remember, Solomon had how many wives? How many kids by them? What was his sexual sin according to scripture? (Not according to what men want to claim without any data whatsoever to confirm it.) Solomon sinned by taking foreign wives. It is the same admonition found in 1 Cor. 7;39 Get married to whoever you want, but ONLY to Christians. Guess what that means. NEVER date a non-Christian.

But … that said, again ... whatever is not from faith is sin. If you believe that looking at nudity, woman’s undies, … is a sin, it is for you. Unless you are absolutely 100% positive that something is not a sin, it is a sin for you. If you aren't sure, if you haven't done as I have done and haven't the examined absolutely every passage you can find, and that others have found, and haven't come to the exact same conclusions I have, then it is sin ... for you.

It is fascinating what contortions people make in order to justify their own sins. I digress, so according to your interpretation of what fornication and adultery are, does this mean you think lusting after women who are not married is an alright kind of thing to do? And, does this mean you research the people who are in pornographic movies before you watch them to make sure the woman is not married? What if she becomes married, do you just watch her early stuff prior to getting married?

Your premise is absurd.
Love thy neighbor as thyself. Would you like your wife to be looked at by men in such a situation? What about before your wife married you? Would it all be a great thing to have these types of things made with your wife before you knew her? Would it make you feel jealous? Embarrassed?

 

[redstang281]

If you have two wives and one is mean to the other, and one is depressed it means you are a horrible husband and not doing a good job keeping either one of them happy. Neither one feels loved. The Bible said Elkanah loved Hannah, but she was not eating, crying all the time, and had bitterness of heart because she didn't have a baby. The Bible does not say the Elkanah loved Peniah, maybe that is the reason why she was mean to Hannah. Jealousy can sure make women turn into mean cats.

Well its the husbands job to take care of his wife, whether he has one or two its still his job. Also in the Bible there's regulation around taking more wives, you have to be able to not neglect the first.

Exodus 21:10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.

The Bible says to love your wife as your own flesh. So, would you want your wife to bring in another man? Would you feel happy about this arrangement, sharing your wife?

Do unto others as you would have done unto you.

No, I wouldn't want to share my wife but that's also not the design God established.

 

[Torino]

Redstang281, you brought out my only real issue with EmethAlethia's post. I believe it was Godrules, but I recall that someone had addressed the passage in Corinthians about marriage being the solution to "fornication" ("porneia", frequently coupled with idolatry) in Corinth because the prostitutes in Corinth had connotations, if not actively employed, in service to the foreign god Aphrodite, hence the mixing Paul mentioned. Elsewhere you don't see warnings against extra-marital sex with harlots/harlots in the same way you do here, as they were not necessarily religious prostitutes. I mentioned Delilah, Gomer, earlier. Tamar might be another example, when Judah had sex with her apparently believing her to be a general harlot.

What are your thoughts on the Aphrodite-harlot fornication connection?

 

[Torino]

Galatea, you're still appealing to potential consequences, and I mentioned that this is a fallacy.

Beyond that, as Redstang pointed out, a wife being shared with multiple men is not the design God put in place. As much as you might not like this, women were designed to be with one man for life. The Word is sufficient, but if you want more look into microchimerism and telegony, both concepts alluded to in scripture, and see how when a woman has sex with a man his seminal fluids carry his DNA which gets into the woman's body, into her blood, and into her brain even, and they are there for life. Furthermore, when a man has children by such a woman, DNA from her previous partners wind up in the offspring of her current man, even though the previous partners didn't sire these children. This is why there are many comparisons to agriculture and sex in the Bible - man's "seed" and all.

And this corruption is exactly the "adultery", the adulterating that is going on when a man's wife is with another man. The field and seeds being mixed.

 

[Galatea]

Well its the husbands job to take care of his wife, whether he has one or two its still his job. Also in the Bible there's regulation around taking more wives, you have to be able to not neglect the first.

Exodus 21:10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.



No, I wouldn't want to share my wife but that's also not the design God established.

So, you don't do unto your wife as you would have done unto you.

Love thy neighbor as thyself. If you would not share your wife, why do you think it is loving her for her to share you? Does she not care about you all that much, so she's willing to share you with other women?

 

[Galatea]

Galatea, you're still appealing to potential consequences, and I mentioned that this is a fallacy.

Beyond that, as Redstang pointed out, a wife being shared with multiple men is not the design God put in place. As much as you might not like this, women were designed to be with one man for life. The Word is sufficient, but if you want more look into microchimerism and telegony, both concepts alluded to in scripture, and see how when a woman has sex with a man his seminal fluids carry his DNA which gets into the woman's body, into her blood, and into her brain even, and they are there for life. Furthermore, when a man has children by such a woman, DNA from her previous partners wind up in the offspring of her current man, even though the previous partners didn't sire these children. This is why there are many comparisons to agriculture and sex in the Bible - man's "seed" and all.

And this corruption is exactly the "adultery", the adulterating that is going on when a man's wife is with another man. The field and seeds being mixed.

Let's talk about love. If you love yourself, you would not want your wife with another man, correct?

If you love your neighbor as yourself (your wife being your neighbor), why don't you love her enough to not force her to share you?

 

[redstang281]

It is fascinating what contortions people make in order to justify their own sins. I digress, so according to your interpretation of what fornication and adultery are, does this mean you think lusting after women who are not married is an alright kind of thing to do? And, does this mean you research the people who are in pornographic movies before you watch them to make sure the woman is not married? What if she becomes married, do you just watch her early stuff prior to getting married?

Lust implies you have the desire to take something. Noticing someone's beauty, admiring them, or even having a fantasy about someone doesn't necessarily mean you actually want to take that person or even do the things you might think of.

Is it wrong to look at my neighbors car? I don't think so unless I start thinking about how I can steal it.

God made men very visually stimulated by women. He made women beautiful to us. It's just a normal thing for a man to be attracted to a woman. I believe the things God created are good things. The sin is when you desire to take a woman who belongs to another man.

Another thing I think people miss about Matthew 5:28 is it isn't necessarily even about sex. You might be lusting after someone else's wife because she is a good cook, or you like talking to her, or you think she would be fun to hang out with. The point is once you start desiring to actually take her at that time you are already committing adultery.

 

[Galatea]

Lust implies you have the desire to take something. Noticing someone's beauty, admiring them, or even having a fantasy about someone doesn't necessarily mean you actually want to take that person or even do the things you might think of.

Is it wrong to look at my neighbors car? I don't think so unless I start thinking about how I can steal it.

God made men very visually stimulated by women. He made women beautiful to us. It's just a normal thing for a man to be attracted to a woman. I believe the things God created are good things. The sin is when you desire to take a woman who belongs to another man.

Another thing I think people miss about Matthew 5:28 is it isn't necessarily even about sex. You might be lusting after someone else's wife because she is a good cook, or you like talking to her, or you think she would be fun to hang out with. The point is once you start desiring to actually take her at that time you are already committing adultery.

Can you look at pornography without wanting to take the woman to bed?