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Why is man's heart so desperately wicked?

Stones

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Jesus is the Word. The Bible, from the beginning to the end tells us about him. His word is throughout both books. He has spoken it, thus it is his word. It is true, the Apostles didn't have the NT. They did have the Old. Our Lord quoted it, he even took some aside after his resurrection, showing the scriptures that pertained to him. The book is inspired by the Holy Spirit.

You are being disingenuous, you yourself quote from it. Without the Bible, you wouldn't know Jesus. Without the testimony of the Gospel, you would be lost. It is evident that you do believe in some of it. I am curious though, which parts do you throw away, which do you believe are true?

There is a big difference in using the bible as a tool to learn about the word of god and worshiping the bible as god. Fanatical Christians have lost sight of this.

Jesus often quoted the scriptures but he did not worship the scriptures like some of the other Jewish sects.

Moses said, "Eye for an Eye" But Jesus said, "Turn the other Cheek". How many times do we see Jesus change the scriptures? Jesus was persecuted by sects that followed the law of mosses to the letter, because Jesus didn't. Jesus understood, He and his disciples even picked and ate corn on the Sabbath. he didn't worship the scriptures, He worshiped God, thru the holy Ghost and he used the Scriptures as a tool.

God didn't create man for the Bible, He created the Bible for man
;)
 
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Jake255

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Jesus is the Word. The Bible, from the beginning to the end tells us about him. His word is throughout both books. He has spoken it, thus it is his word. It is true, the Apostles didn't have the NT. They did have the Old. Our Lord quoted it, he even took some aside after his resurrection, showing the scriptures that pertained to him. The book is inspired by the Holy Spirit.

You are being disingenuous, you yourself quote from it. Without the Bible, you wouldn't know Jesus. Without the testimony of the Gospel, you would be lost. It is evident that you do believe in some of it. I am curious though, which parts do you throw away, which do you believe are true?
Although, I agree the Bible is the written Word of God, we have become a people that worships a book and some do see it as Jesus Himself. The Bible is a book, one in which can not contain God. He does not live in it, He lives in us.

The Bible is a guidepost, we read it, we learn from it and then it points us to Jesus, whom then we follow. There is so much more God wants us to experience that can not be contained by a book! We do learn from the Bible but God wants us to have our own experiences with Him!
 
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allykelly07

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Yes the word of God is a tool, it was given by God, it is not to be worshiped. But it is to be upheld as "God breathed". God breathed it into the minds and hearts of true and faithful believers, and they wrote it by the Spirit of Christ. Stones, you must understand what your doing. You are distorting the word of God, (what Christ said, and who He is) to fit what sounds good to you. The pharisees thought they were good without Christ, and this is why Christ said they were white washed walls, and said that He was here for the sinners, not the ones who thought they were good. The only righteousness or goodness, comes from Christ in us. You do not need Christ, nor can you truly hear from His Spirit, because you believe that you are good, without God being the one who is good. You are putting yourself in Gods place, by calling yourself good, because there is only ONE who is good, and that is God the Father. "Every good and perfect gift comes from the Father". You can't be good, our flesh and evil nature cannot change. It will always be evil. Yet you go against many scriptures, and the very thing that Christ did for us on the cross, because of your prideful heart turns away from the living God, who deserves to be praised while we are on our faces before His presence.
 
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thesunisout

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Clearly you just ignored everything I said. I will say it again;

The Bible was non existent when this verse about the gospel of Jesus was written. The New testament hadn't even been written letalone compiled. So, Obviously Jesus is the word of God being referred to here. The apostles are giving them the word of God/Jesus.

You are trapped in the Truth, so try answering it the same way again, haha, the bible was non existent when this was written! So how is it refering to something that doesn't exist yet? Especially when we are given the Holy Ghost to lead and guide us, not a book.

Are you denying that the scripture is referred to as the word of God?

Are you denying that the bible contains the scripture?

Why can't we call a book of Gods words the word of God?
 
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thesunisout

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Umm, heaven??? Sorry but as a Jew/Christian I can assure you the bible does not talk about men going to heaven. The hope in Jesus time and still today for Christians is that god will raise the dead on the last day. The Bible hope is about the resurrection from the dead at the last day.
What did Martha say to Jesus? "I believe my brother will raise from the dead at the last day". That was the Jewish hope and that is the Christian hope, so where does heaven fit in with all this?

We will raise to a new earth and new heaven and we will dwell in Paradise...Seems you don't even understand the book you worship? Don't take so much from the pulpit mate...

I notice you didn't answer the question. I know exactly what the scripture says about the new heaven and earth. I'll rephrase the question since you want to mince words. Why can't you or Mary or Joseph live with God in the new earth without Jesus? If you're a good person, God should just let you in right?
 
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seeingeyes

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I've got a question I can't answer. We all know that the bible tells us that man's heart is desperately wicked, who can know it? It is God who searches the heart. So why is man's heart so desperately wicked? I'm not disagreeing, because I know in my own life I don't even know my heart very well, and I do really sinful things as a result. I just don't understand why.

Maybe when sin entered into the world thru Adam and Eve, the heart of man was filled with fear instead of trust for God - and we are byproducts of that fear. I don't know really, just guessing.

What do you all think?

I think we should look at that verse in context:

This is what the Lord says:“Cursed is the one who trusts in man,
who depends on flesh for his strength
and whose heart turns away from the Lord.
He will be like a bush in the wastelands;
he will not see prosperity when it comes.
He will dwell in the parched places of the desert,
in a salt land where no one lives.

“But blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord,
whose confidence is in him.
He will be like a tree planted by the water
that sends out its roots by the stream.
It does not fear when heat comes;
its leaves are always green.
It has no worries in a year of drought
and never fails to bear fruit.”

The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it?

“I the Lord search the heart
and examine the mind,
to reward a man according to his conduct,
according to what his deeds deserve.”(Jeremiah 17)

It seems to be saying that the deceitfulness of the heart of man makes it unknowable (just as you said about not knowing your own heart), but that God is not fooled and can easily read the heart.

Jeremiah is highlighting the contrast between the trickery of the human heart and the un-trickable-ness of God.
 
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gypsygirl

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Keep in mind that the passage in Jeremiah 17:9 to which we're all referring speaks of the human spiritual heart, which is not the same as our identity before God if we're New Covenant Believers. In the Hebrew, the heart simply refers to the appetites and thoughts of a person, i.e. his motivations and inclinations (see Strong's Concordance).

As other members have commented, in our fallen, natural state, man is always self-seeking and typically deceives himself to justify his behavior; this is why the verse in Jer. states that only God can truly discern the human soul (Heb 4:12). We're afraid that if we level with ourselves (and ultimately with God, who's always watching) that we'll somehow be worse off (note Genesis 3) before Him and other human beings - fear is a powerful motivator and enslaves us to deception.
 
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COG2013

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I've got a question I can't answer. We all know that the bible tells us that man's heart is desperately wicked, who can know it? It is God who searches the heart. So why is man's heart so desperately wicked? I'm not disagreeing, because I know in my own life I don't even know my heart very well, and I do really sinful things as a result. I just don't understand why.

Maybe when sin entered into the world thru Adam and Eve, the heart of man was filled with fear instead of trust for God - and we are byproducts of that fear. I don't know really, just guessing.

What do you all think?
Mans Heart is NOT wicked - Man's mind is. The "Heart" is the metaphorical soul and there is nothing wicked about anybody's soul.
 
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Dan61861

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There is a big difference in using the bible as a tool to learn about the word of god and worshiping the bible as god. Fanatical Christians have lost sight of this.

Jesus often quoted the scriptures but he did not worship the scriptures like some of the other Jewish sects.

Moses said, "Eye for an Eye" But Jesus said, "Turn the other Cheek". How many times do we see Jesus change the scriptures? Jesus was persecuted by sects that followed the law of mosses to the letter, because Jesus didn't. Jesus understood, He and his disciples even picked and ate corn on the Sabbath. he didn't worship the scriptures, He worshiped God, thru the holy Ghost and he used the Scriptures as a tool.

God didn't create man for the Bible, He created the Bible for man
;)

Thank you for your reply. I do understand what you are saying, parts I do agree with, parts I don't. Guess that is what makes us each unique individuals. You are absolutely correct when you do say, God created the Bible for man. It is a teaching tool, yet it is so much more as well. The whole law is fulfilled in one word, even in this, Love your neighbor as yourself.

Is this the true problem you have with today's Christians. You don't see that Love? I myself can attest to this. When we are more worried about how big, or how beautiful we can make a building. Yet we ignore our brother and his family that is in need of food.

However, this isn't an indictment on the Bible. It just shows the infallibility of man. Remember, as you are in Christ, so is your brother in Christ. Sometimes we do forget, it isn't our righteousness that has delivered us from the chains of sin, but it is the Grace of God that saves us.
 
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thesunisout

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As you may have noticed, I don't answer questions that are designed like an inquisitor in an Inquisition, I just don't. I will answer serious questions based on mutual theology that aren't Inquisitive.

You also like to Ignore the obvious and roll right over it with your book. Sorry, Not into those kind of discussions. So I become testy ;) hence the next post about heaven, haha...

Okay.

The bible contains the scripture, the scripture is called the word of God. That's why people call the bible the word of God. It's really that simple.

If you say you're a good person, you're at odds with Jesus:

Luke 18:19

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

You're not a good person because outside of Jesus you deserve death and hell. When you are saved, we receive an *imputed* righteousness. It's His righteousness not ours.
 
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Dan61861

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Although, I agree the Bible is the written Word of God, we have become a people that worships a book and some do see it as Jesus Himself. The Bible is a book, one in which can not contain God. He does not live in it, He lives in us.

The Bible is a guidepost, we read it, we learn from it and then it points us to Jesus, whom then we follow. There is so much more God wants us to experience that can not be contained by a book! We do learn from the Bible but God wants us to have our own experiences with Him!

Hi Jake,
I don't disagree with much you say here. If one is worshipping the Bible, I too think it is a sin. The Bible is a tool, not one that I use. It is one that the Holy Spirit uses in me. I wouldn't be able to comprehend his Word, without His guidance.

For example, let's talk about clean and unclean. In the OT, it was sinful to eat anything that is unclean. If you were not of the tribe of Israel, you were unclean. Israel was under the Law, Christ fulfilled that law. He died for all, What God has made clean, don't call it unclean.

So, what does it mean when it says, Christ fulfilled the Law. It is rather simple. You and I, everyone has broken the law. We have all sinned. Jesus is sinless, thus he fulfilled the law. Now, it is through his righteousness that I and you have become clean. Not of ourselves, but by the Grace of God.

I assume you are asking yourself, why is this guy telling me what I already know. The point, the Holy Spirit reveals Christ to us through the Bible. Without it, our understanding would be a bit more difficult. Not impossible, nothing is impossible for our God. So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

In Christ
Daniel
 
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allykelly07

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As you may have noticed, I don't answer questions that are designed like an inquisitor in an Inquisition, I just don't. I will answer serious questions based on mutual theology that aren't Inquisitive.

You also like to Ignore the obvious and roll right over it with your book. Sorry, Not into those kind of discussions. So I become testy ;) hence the next post about heaven, haha...
Yes the word of God is a tool, it was given by God, it is not to be worshiped. But it is to be upheld as "God breathed". God breathed it into the minds and hearts of true and faithful believers, and they wrote it by the Spirit of Christ. Stones, you must understand what your doing. You are distorting the word of God, (what Christ said, and who He is) to fit what sounds good to you. The pharisees thought they were good without Christ, and this is why Christ said they were white washed walls, and said that He was here for the sinners, not the ones who thought they were good. The only righteousness or goodness, comes from Christ in us. You do not need Christ, nor can you truly hear from His Spirit, because you believe that you are good, without God being the one who is good. You are putting yourself in Gods place, by calling yourself good, because there is only ONE who is good, and that is God the Father. "Every good and perfect gift comes from the Father". You can't be good, our flesh and evil nature cannot change. It will always be evil. Yet you go against many scriptures, and the very thing that Christ did for us on the cross, because of your prideful heart turns away from the living God, who deserves to be praised while we are on our faces before His presence.
 
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S

Steve.Page

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I have a good heart, like most people :)

I find it very demoralising walking around telling myself that god thinks I'm wicked? When I know I'm not??? be more positive and believe in yourself :)

You may seem good in your own mind, and you may seem good if you compare your self to Hitler or others. But you would not think you were so good if you understood perfection and that Jesus is perfect. You also need to understand that Jesus was not perfect because he could not sin, he was perfect by choice. Jesus is holy, holy, holy. He is so holy and so perfect even the angels have to covers their eyes. Are you that good?

What you seem to not understand is that in comparison to that level of goodness, we are indeed all wicked.
 
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S

Steve.Page

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Okay.

The bible contains the scripture, the scripture is called the word of God. That's why people call the bible the word of God. It's really that simple.

If you say you're a good person, you're at odds with Jesus:

Luke 18:19

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

You're not a good person because outside of Jesus you deserve death and hell. When you are saved, we receive an *imputed* righteousness. It's His righteousness not ours.
Well said.
 
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S

Steve.Page

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When Paul wrote that, there wasn't even a bible compiled. The New Testament was non existent, so it is not the Bible it is referring to in this verse, It is Jesus and what Jesus said that he is speaking about. I kinda figure that was obvious? The Word of God is Jesus words, obviously...

You make no sense. The apostles were inspired by the Holy Spirit and they knew they were writing scripture. Haven't you read what Peter said about what Paul wrote?

You are also wrong on yet another level, the Apostles taught from the Bible. Every New Testament principle is found in the Old Testament which is the word of God, Jesus is the fulfillment of that word. You are simply not understanding that there is no difference in the authority of Jesus who is the Word and the scriptures which are the Words of God.
 
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Lilly Owl

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I've got a question I can't answer. We all know that the bible tells us that man's heart is desperately wicked, who can know it? It is God who searches the heart. So why is man's heart so desperately wicked? I'm not disagreeing, because I know in my own life I don't even know my heart very well, and I do really sinful things as a result. I just don't understand why.

Maybe when sin entered into the world thru Adam and Eve, the heart of man was filled with fear instead of trust for God - and we are byproducts of that fear. I don't know really, just guessing.

What do you all think?

There are a lot of threads this afternoon that are making me think about my path, I admit.
This and another related to why did God create us?

In answer to this question in this particular thread, I don't think it's anything that has not crossed peoples minds before. If our hearts are so wicked, can we deny Genesis when it says God created us from the dust first? From what amounts to nothing? And then all that we are now we became through his power and by his will?

If we are wicked in heart, it can only be because we are born sinners. That God allowed the sin of Adam to pass unto all of us and make us in deficit the moment we were born. And now we dwell on earth where God deposited his most powerful adversary, the Satan, after his rebellion in Heaven. Which didn't garner his destruction. But rather, permitted him to fall here and be that higher empowered than we spirit that takes his greatest glory in leading us from the light.
Right under God's nose.
He was even permitted to approach the Son of man and not be struck dead! And tempt him from his path of righteousness. Promising Jesus command over all the kingdoms of the earth if he'd but bow to him. And Jesus too let him live!

Why is man's heart so wicked? There's only one answer given the stage we were born onto by God's will and design in the beginning.
Because God wills it.

Ephesians 2:3 - Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
 
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Moriah Ruth 777

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Stones, Stones my man,

You stated, "The Bible was non existent when this verse about the gospel of Jesus was written. The New testament hadn't even been written letalone compiled. So, Obviously Jesus is the word of God being referred to here. The apostles are giving them the word of God/Jesus."

You forget something very important. The ancient Jews kept written scrolls of the prophets and their laws in the ark of the covenant. So, guess what? The WORD OF GOD was written before Jesus came in the flesh as God. And yes, Jesus is the word of God, but He was before the NT. He showed up as an Angel of God. God instructed men to write own His words, even in the OT. The NT is not just the ONLY word of God, the whole bible is.

Also you forget that we are all born into sin because of the sin nature, thanks to Adam and Eve. Even when we became Christians we still sin with our flesh, in our hearts, with our thoughts. Why do you think that in the NT it states daily to renew your mind with the mind of Christ? It also states to study to show thyself approved unto God. What does this mean? TO READ. Hmmm.. seems to me that is the written word of God THE BIBLE.

Now you say that you are all good. Does this mean that you never sin in your thoughts, heart and fleshly desires? Are you all good? No because Jesus states that NO ONE is good, only the Father God.

Moriah Ruth
 
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bottomofsandal

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I've got a question I can't answer. We all know that the bible tells us that man's heart is desperately wicked, who can know it? It is God who searches the heart. So why is man's heart so desperately wicked? I'm not disagreeing, because I know in my own life I don't even know my heart very well, and I do really sinful things as a result. I just don't understand why.

Maybe when sin entered into the world thru Adam and Eve, the heart of man was filled with fear instead of trust for God - and we are byproducts of that fear. I don't know really, just guessing.

What do you all think?
This thread has provided some evidence about man's heart-;)


Anyone who is spiritually mature and honest with themself knows that they are wicked. By association, we know the other guy is wicked because we ourselves are wicked. We all have evil, wicked thoughts. Even Jesus said we are evil. Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift whereby we pass from death to life. We are not left in our sinful, evil state, Jesus rescued us from death.
 
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Norah63

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So when we come together it is to confess our faults one to another, and pray one for another. To pray for the Lord to search our hearts, is a humble thing, we want His inspection, to show us if there be any wicked way in me. Because then I can confess and turn that over, and replace it with faith in what He knows I can be.
Not to blame Him for creating me, or allowing me to be here on the earth.
We are created in God's image, after His likeness, and as we submit, His will is done in our lives.
It's just like taking a bath or shower every day to stay clean.
A wise man once said, "keep short accounts with God".
Repentance and confession often.
 
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