Why is J.I. Packer Anglican?

[Albion]

I couldn't imagine Purgatory ever being discussed in America at all outside of the Roman Catholic Church proper.

Oh, yes. You will find it among self-described Anglo-Catholics. They usually rework the idea a little bit, ditch the indulgences part, but insist that there must be some place in the afterlife that _________ (here fill in with everything that Purgatory is believed by Roman Catholics to accomplish).

And that's the thing about the drift Romeward by Anglo-Catholics. It used to be said that Anglo-Catholics might go so far as to believe everything that RCs believe except for these few points:

Transubstantiation

Purgatory

The two Marian doctrines of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption, and

The Pope

But all of these are now affirmed by Anglo-Catholics I encounter. As I said before, there is no hard and fast definition that tells us who is a first rate Anglo-Catholic as against someone who is by and large an Anglo-Catholic, but the old rule of thumb I just described surely doesn't hold anymore except for the one about the Pope.

He is not acknowledged to be ruler of the universal church but they are quite willing to agree to him being accorded the title of "Patriarch of the West."

 

[Albion]

#4 You got the 3 streams wrong and a lot of ACNA clergy disagree with that anyways. None of that is official anything. The 3 streams is Catholic, Evangelical, and Charismatic. Not Scripture, Tradition, and Charismatic.

Yep. I had a funny feeling as I was typing that my mind was playing some sort of trick on me. My apologies.

The main point in all of that, however, is that the charismatic "stream" is purely artificial, certainly not on the level of the other two, even if we were to believe that the historic church ever subscribed to this three-way structure. The idea was to attract some of the people who were charismatics looking for ritual, etc., like those who formed the Charismatic Episcopal Church in the early 1990s. For awhile, some people were talking that up as a great new revival movement in Christianity.

#5 Ok, great. ACNA is permitting many clergy from other Protestant denominations. I'm happy that it isn't Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. If they adhere to the 39 Articles and the 1662 BCP as "fundamental principles of authentic Anglican belief" than there isn't really a problem. Anglican ways and values aren't some mysterious "way" like we are in a Free Masons fraternity. We are Christian. Conducting a service using the 2019 BCP isn't rocket science.

Then you're all set. You are correct that many of these folks can follow the Order for Holy Communion if you put the book in their hands.

#6 I don't know the whole story regarding numbers. I haven't gotten the impression of exaggerated membership.

If not, you now have heard it from me.

The church has exaggerated its membership, often via a slightly misleading turn of phrase, and has done so from the start. It continues, too.

One thing about ACNA is that it is very much public relations-oriented. She wants to appear significant in the eyes of the religious media, and membership figures always count towards that. Originally, this was also to bolster ACNA's campaign to be accepted by the Anglican Communion as a second province in the USA, but I think they now have reconciled themselves to the fact that that isn't going to happen, GAFCON or no GAFCON.

Perhaps ACNA is the new TEC. But, ACNA began for far more reasons than gay marriage. That's just the tip of the iceberg. TEC Bishops were denying the deity of Jesus Christ!

These folks tolerated all of that in TEC. They tolerated it all for 40 years after the Continuing Anglicans left.

It was only the homosexual issue that became the straw that broke the camel's back for them.

Lastly, if someone rejects the 39 Articles, than they are what I would call Anglican-In-Name-Only. It's like saying you are a Christian while simultaneously saying you don't think the trinity is important today, it was just important during the time of 33-381 AD. Rejecting core principles like Sola Scripture (Article 6 of the 39) is what lead to the formation of ACNA in the first place.

Oh dear.

 

[David Goforth]

No. They're not all provinces of the Anglican communion. They're either in communion with Canterbury, and part of the Anglican communion, or they've broken off from Canterbury and are new denominations (completely separate bodies) claiming an Anglican identity and heritage.

GAFCON has no official standing as anything. They mostly seem to be out to undermine the structures of the communion in order to advance their own agenda.

I completely agree with article 11 of the 39 Articles, I just don't think Catholics disagree with it. They also believe that we are accounted righteous because of Christ, and not because of our own works.

I understand your point about the technical aspect of Canterbury. However, the Archbishop of Canterbury and York only has jurisdiction in England and Wales (don't think he does Scotland or Northern Ireland).

GAFCON is not trying to undermine anything. Just wants to stick to the Bible and reform Anglicanism back to it. I just googled Australia and GAFCON.
Gafcon Australia – Guarding and proclaiming the unchanging truth in a changing world

 

[David Goforth]

No. They're not all provinces of the Anglican communion. They're either in communion with Canterbury, and part of the Anglican communion, or they've broken off from Canterbury and are new denominations (completely separate bodies) claiming an Anglican identity and heritage.

GAFCON has no official standing as anything. They mostly seem to be out to undermine the structures of the communion in order to advance their own agenda.

I completely agree with article 11 of the 39 Articles, I just don't think Catholics disagree with it. They also believe that we are accounted righteous because of Christ, and not because of our own works.

I'm not sure official Roman Catholic Church doctrine agrees with Article 11 the way it's written or explained in the Homily on Salvation (which agrees with the Augsburg Confession - Lutheran).

 

[David Goforth]

Yep. I had a funny feeling as I was typing that my mind was playing some sort of trick on me. My apologies.

The main point in all of that, however, is that the charismatic "stream" is purely artificial, certainly not on the level of the other two, even if we were to believe that the historic church ever subscribed to this three-way structure. The idea was to attract some of the people who were charismatics looking for ritual, etc., like those who formed the Charismatic Episcopal Church in the early 1990s. For awhile, some people were talking that up as a great new revival movement in Christianity.



Then you're all set. You are correct that many of these folks can follow the Order for Holy Communion if you put the book in their hands.


If not, you now have heard it from me.

The church has exaggerated its membership, often via a slightly misleading turn of phrase, and has done so from the start. It continues, too.

One thing about ACNA is that it seeks very much to be appear to be significant in the eyes of the religious media, and membership figures always count towards that. Originally, this was also to bolster ACNA's campaign to be accepted by the Anglican Communion as a second province in the USA, but I think they now have reconciled themselves to the fact that that isn't going to happen, GAFCON or no GAFCON.


These folks tolerated all of that in TEC. They tolerated it all for 40 years after the Continuing Anglicans left.

It was only the homosexual issue that became the straw that broke the camel's back for them.



Oh dear.

I'm getting the idea that you believe Continuing Anglican Churches are the purest form of "Anglicanism." Here is the ACNA's theological standard (below). What do you think is the correct standard or what confession or model creates the perfect Anglican Way? Also, what do you recommend if you don't live anywhere near a Continuing Anglican Church? Right now, I only have the option (if I want Anglican liturgy) to go to a TEC church (yeah it's in the "Anglican Communion," but then I'd be supporting non-Biblical stances) or the one ACNA Church nearby. Two Choices.

Anglican Church in North America

On your other thread (this forum discussion) you mentioned how some Anglo-Catholics are in agreement with things like purgatory, (Article 22) clearly states, "The Romish Doctrine concerning Purgatory, Pardons, Worshipping and Adoration, as well of Images as of Relics, and also Invocation of Saints, is a fond thing, vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but rather repugnant to the Word of God."

If they are agreeing anything close to the stuff in Article 22, which express the most 101 Basic evangelical/protestant beliefs, than by what standard do they call themselves Anglican? Seems so foreign to me.

 

[Paidiske]

I understand your point about the technical aspect of Canterbury. However, the Archbishop of Canterbury and York only has jurisdiction in England and Wales (don't think he does Scotland or Northern Ireland).

But he has a role beyond that, as one of the instruments of communion.

GAFCON is not trying to undermine anything. Just wants to stick to the Bible and reform Anglicanism back to it. I just googled Australia and GAFCON.
Gafcon Australia – Guarding and proclaiming the unchanging truth in a changing world

I know some of the people in my diocese and beyond involved in GAFCON. I've talked to them about this stuff. I have observed what they're doing. They are absolutely undermining the norms of Anglican governance; they break their oath of obedience, they opt to work outside the normal oversight structures of the church, and they denigrate their colleagues with whom they disagree rather than seeking to work as well as possible together.

I'm not sure official Roman Catholic Church doctrine agrees with Article 11 the way it's written or explained in the Homily on Salvation (which agrees with the Augsburg Confession - Lutheran).

I would have to read the homily to be sure; but as to the basic point of the article; we're saved by Christ, not by our own works, I do not believe Catholic doctrine would disagree. If you want to check, you can always go and ask them in OBOB.

 

[Albion]

If they are agreeing anything close to the stuff in Article 22, which express the most 101 Basic evangelical/protestant beliefs, than by what standard do they call themselves Anglican? Seems so foreign to me.

It's because they are in the historical lineage or path of Anglicanism, of course. And if the beliefs and/or practices have changed, that is viewed as keeping up with the times, being ecumenical, or something else which can be packaged and sold as a positive.

It has happened in virtually all the major denominations, which is why almost all of them are now divided between liberal and conservative branches.

I recommend that you read the following, taken from an Anglican website maintained by a member of ACNA. He is a keen observer of things Anglican and a very careful thinker. You might, in fact, benefit from reading more of Anglicans Ablaze than just this reprint. If this seems long, begin with the section, about midway through, that begins with the rhetorical question about ACNA keeping the Anglican formularies.

Anglicans Ablaze: The Problem of Doctrine in the Anglican Church in North America

 

[tampasteve]

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[Shane R]

A Chaplain on Fort Bragg (ACNA Priest) is going to be at an ordination ceremony for 20 Army Chaplains (occurs 18 Sep 19) who are switching to Anglican. This occurs 2x a year. Numbers like this aren't occurring for other denominations. I get the impression that ACNA is growing.

I am a Navy veteran (08-14). In the early days of ACNA, after they had constituted a diocese for Armed Forces and other forms of chaplaincy, they were accepting all callers. In most cases, these candidates were given something like a six month crash course in Anglican formation with little to no mentorship and turned loose on the fleet. In consequence, they usually did not display any particular Anglican distinctives. So that program was growth for the sake of numbers.

I still live and now minister in a military mega concentration area (Hampton Roads, VA). I am also a Gold Star family member. I have somewhat regular contact with the chaplain corps. They still have the same problems. Most of them have not conducted a communion service in months.

I get the impression ACNA is holding steady. If you discount the influx of the Diocese of South Carolina, they haven't really grown in a couple of years. There is a significant 'back door' that no one talks about because it doesn't fit the media narrative they want to market. I'm not even necessarily talking about dioceses although 2/3 of CANA departed (but ACNA will probably absorb what remains of AMiA before too long). +Ray Sutton has a lot of disgruntled clergy on his hands who are calling the Continuing churches for incardination after the REC chose to go with the flow when the Report on Holy Orders was released. (In fairness, one does occasionally hear of a Continuing priest leaving for ACNA, usually because -even though they claim to be poor- they've got 10X the money of any Continuing church except maybe ACC.) It's not just the REC who's got clergy making phone calls to other bishops either.

I know a few guys who feel a little uncomfortable when they go to diocesan functions and half the clergy were hard pressed to dig up a red stole. Or when they realize their parish is the only one in the deanery that has hymnals. Or any number of issues that clearly delineate significant cultural divides within the dioceses.

 

[Hungarus]

Sola Scriptura / Sola Fide is in official Anglican theology

David, do you mean "Prima Scriptura"? "Sola Scriptura" is not really the Anglican interpretation.

 

[Arcangl86]

David, do you mean "Prima Scriptura"? "Sola Scriptura" is not really the Anglican interpretation.

Sola Scriptura is the Anglican interpretation. We aren't required to believe anything that isn't in scripture or provable by scripture.

 

[Paidiske]

It's a bit more complicated that that, though, isn't it?

We aren't required to believe anything that isn't in Scripture or provable by Scripture as being necessary to salvation; but nor do we treat Scripture as the only authoritative source for our faith.

 

[Arcangl86]

Hmm. That is a fair point.

 

[Anglican Liberal]

Because many in the early Anglican Church were reformed, and there remains a small but strong reformed group within Anglicanism. There is no contradiction in being Anglican and Reformed.

 

[Andrewn]

I also would feel really uncomfortable with a pastor who is Wesleyan.

Why?