Why is it so hard to find historical truths in the modern churches?

[Dionysiou]

I come from a born again background but I am having serious doubts about my chosen path.

For starters, I am actually quite annoyed that nobody bothered to tell me about the Early church Fathers. 20 years in a protestant setting and not once did I hear their names mentioned. The implications of their views and influence are enormous given the circumstances. How can they be so easily cast aside in good conscience? I made mention of them to friends within my church and they also had no idea who they were.

I was taught that Catholicism and orthodoxy were nothing more than religious garbage. Worshiping Mary and other weird stuff, with no foundation in truth. The more i come to understand the historical significance of these denominations, the more i feel like it is I who was lied to. It's like a caveman approaches a king, and somehow believes himself more qualified and capable to run the kingdom. There's a huge gap in compiled knowledge and progression. I mean how would Christianity have even survived without the efforts of these traditions? How could these men be trusted to compile the bible as we know it and yet we ignore what they have to say about it? How can they be bringers of truth and false witnesses at the same time? I say this because the writings i read strike me as catholic/orthodox. Somehow Christians today think they have a deeper understanding of scripture and are closer to the Truth than the past was. It is more logical to me, that the modern day churches are at the tail end of the game "chinese whispers", not the other way around. It always bothered me how many denominations there were but in light of all this it makes perfect sense.

i'll admit, i have only begun to read the volumes of stuff that's out there (previously i was told only to read the bible) yet i can't see how i will be able to proceed in the born again setting should this continue. Honestly, i don't even want to leave the modern day church, it's comfortable and pleases my flesh. I just want the truth, wherever it is.

 

[Goatee]

Continue on your journey of truth. God is calling you towards the truth. Looks like to me He is showing you the way!

 

[RC1970]

Ironically, it was when I began reading the writings of the church fathers that I began moving away from Catholicism. We all need to be continuously reforming.

"Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect." ~ Romans 12:2

 

[Goatee]

I have read loads over the last year or 2 on faith etc. Surprising what one finds out about ones faith / church!

I have always been at odds with some teachings of the Catholic Church and its dogmas and traditions handed down. I am always trying to fathom it all out. But, as i have said before, the one thing that for me is the most important thing is that i know and believe that Jesus is the true son of the Living God! For me, everything else hovers around this important belief.

 

[RC1970]

I have read loads over the last year or 2 on faith etc. Surprising what one finds out about ones faith / church!

I have always been at odds with some teachings of the Catholic Church and its dogmas and traditions handed down. I am always trying to fathom it all out. But, as i have said before, the one thing that for me is the most important thing is that i know and believe that Jesus is the true son of the Living God! For me, everything else hovers around this important belief.

Yes, this is the most important thing to demonstrate to and unbelieving world.

We live in a time where we have access to so much information. There really is no valid excuse for not being more educated about the things of God.

 

[Dionysiou]

I appreciate the input.

How i love the simplicity of Christ. Though i am lost and wounded, I can rest. What we long for most, remains ever close.

 

[Goatee]

I find that sometimes i try too much to understand spiritual / Catholic teachings etc. Maybe a simpler approach is needed?

Like Prayer! Didn't Jesus say something about people saying loads of empty words when fewer would do? Lately i have begun to just say a few prayers morning and night and throughout the day. I have come away from reading pages of prayers! Little with quality seems to be better than more with empty words that float through the mind!

 

[Job8]

Continue on your journey of truth. God is calling you towards the truth. Looks like to me He is showing you the way!

Christ is THE TRUTH (Jn 14:6). If He dwells within you, there is no "journey". Those who are in Christ receive ALL SPIRITUAL BLESSINGS (Eph 1:3).

As to the writings of the Early Church Fathers, the Reformers, and any and all men who have written about spiritual things, they have much that is beneficial and some that is misleading. So don't get all excited about all these writings. It is not a question of casting aside the writings of men. It is a matter of focusing on Scripture as the fountain of all truth. And every writing MUST be weighed in the light of what the Bible says. Prove all things, hold fast that which is good (1 Thess 5:21).

The first question you should ask yourself is "How well do I really know the Word of God, and how seriously and in-depth have I really studied it"? Chances are you may have only a very superficial understanding of Scripture.

 

[Shane R]

I come from a born again background but I am having serious doubts about my chosen path.

For starters, I am actually quite annoyed that nobody bothered to tell me about the Early church Fathers. 20 years in a protestant setting and not once did I hear their names mentioned. The implications of their views and influence are enormous given the circumstances. How can they be so easily cast aside in good conscience? I made mention of them to friends within my church and they also had no idea who they were.

I was taught that Catholicism and orthodoxy were nothing more than religious garbage. Worshiping Mary and other weird stuff, with no foundation in truth. The more i come to understand the historical significance of these denominations, the more i feel like it is I who was lied to. It's like a caveman approaches a king, and somehow believes himself more qualified and capable to run the kingdom. There's a huge gap in compiled knowledge and progression. I mean how would Christianity have even survived without the efforts of these traditions? How could these men be trusted to compile the bible as we know it and yet we ignore what they have to say about it? How can they be bringers of truth and false witnesses at the same time? I say this because the writings i read strike me as catholic/orthodox. Somehow Christians today think they have a deeper understanding of scripture and are closer to the Truth than the past was. It is more logical to me, that the modern day churches are at the tail end of the game "chinese whispers", not the other way around. It always bothered me how many denominations there were but in light of all this it makes perfect sense.

i'll admit, i have only begun to read the volumes of stuff that's out there (previously i was told only to read the bible) yet i can't see how i will be able to proceed in the born again setting should this continue. Honestly, i don't even want to leave the modern day church, it's comfortable and pleases my flesh. I just want the truth, wherever it is.

I relate to your story because I went down a similar path beginning in 2008. I too felt disgruntled at having the historical Christian witness essentially hidden from me. I too was disenfranchised with the myopia present within my family tradition. It was the study of church history that first led me away from my upbringing - my old tradition had largely fabricated a history to attempt to make a claim to being the first century church, possibly hidden 'in the wilderness' for 1260 years and all that rubbish. Then I began reading the creeds and confessions of the magisterial Reformation and the Fathers. Eventually my primary focus became the Fathers.

May I recommend to you the Catechetical Lectures of Cyril of Jerusalem as a good text to read deeply: http://newadvent.org/fathers/3101.htm

You should keep in mind that St. Cyril was teaching what we might call a new converts' class, preparing his students for holy baptism and eucharistic communion. What he taught them as an introduction to the faith is a more rigorous curriculum than what many denominations require of their clergy.

A lot of Evangelical protestants do not even have the vocabulary to properly read the Fathers. It is no small task to work through the material and make sense of it, because they employed symbols that do not correspond to anything found in churches that lost the concept of sacrament.

 

[Trevor S]

Christ is THE TRUTH (Jn 14:6). If He dwells within you, there is no "journey". Those who are in Christ receive ALL SPIRITUAL BLESSINGS (Eph 1:3).

As to the writings of the Early Church Fathers, the Reformers, and any and all men who have written about spiritual things, they have much that is beneficial and some that is misleading. So don't get all excited about all these writings. It is not a question of casting aside the writings of men. It is a matter of focusing on Scripture as the fountain of all truth. And every writing MUST be weighed in the light of what the Bible says. Prove all things, hold fast that which is good (1 Thess 5:21).

The first question you should ask yourself is "How well do I really know the Word of God, and how seriously and in-depth have I really studied it"? Chances are you may have only a very superficial understanding of Scripture.

You do understand that these "misleading" men whom you seem to trivialize for the sale of scripture, were the ones that debated, voted on and assembled scripture as we know it today? If you are skeptical about the church fathers, then you should be skeptical of the texts they assembled that you espouse needing to fully understand first.

As for the OP, I agree, I wish the church would embrace its' roots more. There is a lot we can learn from the early church, considering some of them were taught by the apostles, they lived in the same culture and experienced the same persecution, this history gives us deep insight into scripture as we know it today. Sometimes when I don't know how to act, and scripture alone isn't 100% clear (like, pacifism vs. self-defense), I look to the early church and see how they acted in the first and second centuries and allow that to perhaps assist in guiding my behavior. This was the era before the church got mixed in with the State, before church leadership was politicized and commercialized, before being Christian was the convenient, culturally relevant label to adopt. I am currently studying theology and looking to do graduate studies in church history, so I could speak on the subject all day.

 

[Job8]

You do understand that these "misleading" men whom you seem to trivialize for the sale of scripture, were the ones that debated, voted on and assembled scripture as we know it today?

I said MUCH that is beneficial and SOME that is misleading. Truth be told, a lot of false doctrine crept into Christianity through the writings of the ECF. We would spend hours examining that, but perhaps you will need to take a more balanced approach.

 

[Trevor S]

I said MUCH that is beneficial and SOME that is misleading. Truth be told, a lot of false doctrine crept into Christianity through the writings of the ECF. We would spend hours examining that, but perhaps you will need to take a more balanced approach.

I wont claim that everything they said is inerrant, but they have a lot to offer. Irenaeus was pretty much the entire reason the four gospels we use today were considered canonical, without him who knows how much longer it would've taken to realize it. Of course there were issues, like docetism and gnosticism as a whole. Your comment came off as if studying the early church is a frivolous exercise, perhaps I read you wrong though.

 

[Erose]

I have read loads over the last year or 2 on faith etc. Surprising what one finds out about ones faith / church!

I have always been at odds with some teachings of the Catholic Church and its dogmas and traditions handed down. I am always trying to fathom it all out. But, as i have said before, the one thing that for me is the most important thing is that i know and believe that Jesus is the true son of the Living God! For me, everything else hovers around this important belief.

Could it be that those things that you are at odds with the Apostolic churches, be because they contradict what you were taught?

For example evangelicals have an issue with Mary, because they have been taught that we worship here, and thus they have trivialized here role in salvation history. If this approach has been ingrained into you from early on, then it will be hard for you not to be at odds.

I'm not trying to argue on the subject of the Blessed Mother, just making the point why you may be at odds with something Catholic.

 

[Erose]

When reading the Church Fathers it makes it easier to understand what they are trying to say, if you have some understanding of the traditions that they assume their audiences already know. There are some that are written to pagans sure, but most are written to Christians of the Apostolic Churches.

 

[Albion]

I wont claim that everything they said is inerrant, but they have a lot to offer. Irenaeus was pretty much the entire reason the four gospels we use today were considered canonical, without him who knows how much longer it would've taken to realize it. Of course there were issues, like docetism and gnosticism as a whole. Your comment came off as if studying the early church is a frivolous exercise, perhaps I read you wrong though.

FWIW, I sympathize with RC1970's comment that it was when he started reading the ECFs that he began moving away from his Roman Catholicism. It was when I began studying the Fathers that I saw the obvious. In many cases, if not most, they aren't Early, they didn't agree with each other, and there is too little to base any conclusion upon that could possibly amount to a "tradition!"

Yet, all of those factors (Apostolic, consistency, and continuity) are supposed to be the foundation for the system that Catholicism considers equal to Scripture!

If "Holy Tradition" is so completely untrue to its own standards, what does that mean that it really is?

The answer, of course, is that it's nothing more than whatever scattered comments from ordinary men the institutional church wants to use as its justification for altering the faith.

 

[Goatee]

Could it be that those things that you are at odds with the Apostolic churches, be because they contradict what you were taught?

For example evangelicals have an issue with Mary, because they have been taught that we worship here, and thus they have trivialized here role in salvation history. If this approach has been ingrained into you from early on, then it will be hard for you not to be at odds.

I'm not trying to argue on the subject of the Blessed Mother, just making the point why you may be at odds with something Catholic.

No as i am a cradle Catholic

 

[Erose]

Concerning the OP, what I would recommend is follow the path you on and see were it leads. I like you when I was Pentecostal and Baptist at different times heard nothing about the Fathers. It wasn't until started the RCIA process that I heard of them the first time.

In my case it wasn't the Fathers that led to my conversion, but the Bible; but after I started reading the Fathers their writings just fortified my faith, in where God led me.

Anyway you are going to get varying opinions here.

 

[Job8]

I just want the truth, wherever it is.

The Truth is Christ Himself, His words, and all the words which are deemed to be the Word of God (the 66 canonical books of the Bible).

The ECF were commentators, not Divinely inspired writers. You can certainly gain much from their writings, but you can also study the writing of the Reformers, the Puritans, and other well-known commentators such as Matthew Henry and John Gill. And some which are not so well-known such as Oliver Greene.

In the end, it is the Bible which must either confirm or deny what they say. So if no one pointed you to the ECF that's nothing to cry over. Did anyone tell you to study the Word, and have you committed yourself to the study of Scripture? That is the only thing which makes you "approved unto God" (2 Tim 2:15).

 

[grandvizier1006]

Honestly, the way Protestants love to emphasize their "freedom" from church regulations and "the priesthood of all believers" stuff has really messed up the faith. When you let everyone decide what to believed you open up the door for atheism, agnosticism, and worst of all, some stupid watered-down faith that embraces homosexuality and leftist talking points. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad to be able to read the Bible for myself and not have to worry about a bunch of Old Testament style regulations or elaborate rituals, but I don't like how people in this society have misused our freedom in Christ to just abandon everything.

 

[JM]

Ironically, it was when I began reading the writings of the church fathers that I began moving away from Catholicism. We all need to be continuously reforming.

"Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect." ~ Romans 12:2

My story is similar. I was studying to be a layreader in a very liberal Anglican parish when I encountered conflicting traditions between so-called "traditional churches" as well as traditions that seemed to be in conflict the scriptures. At the time I thought I could find the "correct" tradition with research, reading the fathers, etc. I attended a Roman church for a while but the Marian and Papal dogmas really freaked me out. I never swam the Tiber. Thankfully a local Eastern Orthodox church was in the area and they set me on the right path, sorta. I would attend liturgy on Sunday's and most people would just ignore me, that's fine. It was a Greek parish so it was made clear I could attend but never really "fit in." The one thing they did was direct me to read scripture, read a good translation of scripture and stay with it. So I did, and you know what, the earliest record of the church is found in scripture. If you want to know what the Apostles taught, what was believed, how the early Christians practiced their faith look to the scriptures.

Honestly, the way Protestants love to emphasize their "freedom" from church regulations and "the priesthood of all believers" stuff has really messed up the faith. When you let everyone decide what to believed you open up the door for atheism, agnosticism, and worst of all, some stupid watered-down faith that embraces homosexuality and leftist talking points. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad to be able to read the Bible for myself and not have to worry about a bunch of Old Testament style regulations or elaborate rituals, but I don't like how people in this society have misused our freedom in Christ to just abandon everything.

This is just unsubstantiated nonsense. Let's not forget Humanism, which lead to the period known as the Enlightenment, was birthed in and around Rome. The Enlightenment spurred on the idea that people are completely autonomous from God making each man his own "pope." This is not what the Reformers taught or believed. Sure, you could find elements in the Radical Reformers (Anabaptists, Mennonites, etc) but not in the mainline Reformers like Luther, Zwingli or Calvin.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
PS: A good way to get a birds eye view of church history is by listening to Communio Sanctorum.