Why is it so hard for the US to train Afghans and Iraqis to fight?

[Autumnleaf]

I know several different sources in Iraq and Afghanistan, both high and low level leadership who are concerned about their ability to have their own soldiers maintain order and keep terrorists from taking over the new government once the US leaves. Why is this such an issue? The US has had 10 years to train local troops to take control. What is the problem(s)?

 

[Emp]

War is the Answer, that's the problem.. War wasn't suppose to be the Answer to begin with, but the "Elite" few(not naming any names)(cough)republicans(cough) did I say something? Anyway, the Elite few.. they need an Army to hide behind. Enough said :/

 

[briareos]

yeh so....remove any issue and insert "warmongering money grubbing republicans" and you win. /poopoo

Here is a good answer

Iraqi Jumping Jacks - YouTube

Training the Afghans - YouTube

In all honestly and fairness these are people who can barely read of write have had little or no education, 50% of their population is 15 or younger and they grew up raising animals in mud huts.

 

[Autumnleaf]

yeh so....remove any issue and insert "warmongering money grubbing republicans" and you win. /poopoo

Here is a good answer

In all honestly and fairness these are people who can barely read of write have had little or no education, 80% of their population is 15 or younger and they grew up raising animals in mud huts.

The answer seems to be the US isn't training them at all. If the people I went to boot camp with did jumping jacks like that the drill instructors would have been on us like rabid dogs. Instead the soldiers in charge seem to be doing a lazy job training them. No wonder things are going so poorly there.

The enemy there is having no trouble killing our men and women in uniform so the caliber of the recruit should not be an issue.

 

[briareos]

Well I don't actually believe our U.S trainers have the authority to treat them the way they would treat us if we took so long to meet standards.

I also disagree with the statement that the enemy has no trouble killing our uniformed service members.

 

[Autumnleaf]

Well I don't actually believe our U.S trainers have the authority to treat them the way they would treat us if we took so long to meet standards.

I also disagree with the statement that the enemy has no trouble killing our uniformed service members.

If they don't have the authority to train them properly then they are destined to fail.

I'm just going by what I've seen on the news with US soldiers getting hurt and killed periodically. For some reason I suspect terrorist training camps don't have people doing jumping jacks like that.

 

[briareos]

The last time I sat through a briefing that concerned IED's we were told that we find about 80% of them before they actually hurt anyone (that's really good) their typical method of emplacement and type of explosive used normally does not actually breach the vehicles armor and does not hurt people. It's more harassment than anything else, it damages the vehicle and slows operations. IED's being their main effort and strategy. It's the rich or very well educated minds behind terrorism that teach the working terrorist how to do things and sends them out to get killed or captured doing their dirty work. This war has gone on for over 10 years but we have had less deaths than any previous war, even less that previous peace times.

I am not a source of official military information, that information is not sensitive and I do not represent the U.S military with my statements.

 

[Desk trauma]

TThis war has gone on for over 10 years but we have had less deaths than any previous war, even less that previous peace times.

The lower number of deaths compared to others wars is actually due to improvements is medical technology rather then less soldiers getting hurt. I do not have a line on the numbers at the moment but when the numbers of injures in the Iraq and Vietnam conflicts are compared they are almost he same what has changed is the survival rate of the injured. The cost is just as high now it is just more a case of men coming home crippled rather then dead, in improvement but still a horrid cost.

 

[briareos]

Injuries weren't a part of the context of my statement.

Can you provide a substantiating source for your idea? You would need that in order to verify the claim that same amount and kind of injuries are taking place and the only variable is medical care.

I would say that has to be erroneous... in vietnam we were fighting a trained military force who actually knew how to kill us and in very large numbers and knew how to fight, they were better equipped and better trained.

This was is completely different. The dangers soldiers face today in Iraq and Afghanistan isn't even similar to the kind they faced in vietnam. Entire platoons and and companies were machine gunned down and ran for their lives in Vietnam... that sort of thing doesn't happen today, it is very rare that NATO forces today face any where near that kind of threat.
The main and most volatile weapon our enemies have today is a bomb on the road that will stop a vehicle and might injure a soldier. Nothing like in Vietnam, in light of this difference how you imagine that the casualties taken would be similar and the same? They don't face anywhere near the threat of death that those old soldiers did. We don't have mass casualty losses like that anymore. We aren't fighting a trained skilled enemy force. This is not kinetic warfare at all. I have spent 3 of the last 6 years in combat zones the enemy doesn't have the ability to overrun and keep our posts likes the enemy in Vietnam did. They don't have the ability to kill hundreds of us in a day like the Vietnamese did. The most dangerous thing soldiers face behind their walls is indirect fire.

 

[Desk trauma]

Can you provide a substantiating source for your idea? You would need that in order to verify the claim that same amount and kind of injuries are taking place and the only variable is medical care.

I do not have the article on hand at the moment due to its age but it was a comparison done at the start of the invasion of Iraq. I am looking for it however.

This [war] is completely different...

I make no claim of the wars being the same only that one of the driving factors behind the lower mortality rate is that medical technology has had 40+/- years worth of improvements.

 

[briareos]

Alright, you may very well be right.

 

[differentDemocrat]

lol oh yes... the jumping jack. It makes no sense physically and no one else around the world does it. Yet, like the pound or inch... America refuses to give up on it no matter how dumb it is.

But if these people were so stupid how are they beating us?
Also, many Iraqis/Afghans are only in it for the money or are drug addicts.

 

[briareos]

The jumping jack is great... you're nuts! and no one is beating us. Most of those recruits cannot read, cannot right, have had no education, have never had to do formal structured exercise... so it's a given that they will struggle to do some of the things we do commonly and well. It was only an example, not a mockery.

 

[BobRyan]

Corruption in the government in Arab countries at the local and state level - will always generate its own corrupt society as that society either opposes it with violence - or buys into its immoral illegal methods.

The quick and easy form of income in those states is drug trafficking - as long as that is the "solution" to all their problems their drug lords will eventually win the day given enough time and access.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[ScottFishes]

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']There is a point that I feel is missing here. The culture of the people being trained. The US military is not in need of competent trainers. Without understanding the culture and society how can you blame the instructors? In America when we join the army we at least have a high school level education, and many have college degrees. We have been introduced to the military at a young age and if we do choose to serve our country we know at least to a point what we are getting into. The people of Afghanistan are, in a sense, polar opposites. Most have little to no education, and the only physical activity most have done in their lives is working. As Americans we fight for our country and the soldier to the left and right. In my experience the Afghan people are not nearly as patriotic as the average American. Let us say you joined a gym and the first day you had a personal trainer in your face, yelling at you to do some exercise you have never even seen before. It would breed disdain for the trainer. In Afghanistan when we train theses soldiers we have to fight beside them. If your life was on the line raiding a village or housing complex wouldn't you want the Afghan soldier next to you have respect for you and not disdain. One of the biggest things for these soldiers is trust. If they don't trust you they won't follow you. It is a slow process because when your life is on the line you want to best soldiers you can get covering your back and not someone rushed through training and filled with disdain for you. [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']On a side note there are many Afghan soldiers who are patriotic and who do fight for their country. They fight with courage and bravery. When clearing houses and such, they will insist on going in first which is the most dangerous position. Contrary to popular opinion there are good soldiers over there who are easy to work with and who take to training well. [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']As for the terrorists, they have something they believe in to fight for. I fight to defend what my country stands for, and in their eyes they are doing the same for their beliefs.[/FONT]

 

[Blackwater Babe]

Do I detect a hint of white man's burden in the OP?

 

[differentDemocrat]

The jumping jack is great... you're nuts! and no one is beating us. Most of those recruits cannot read, cannot right, have had no education, have never had to do formal structured exercise... so it's a given that they will struggle to do some of the things we do commonly and well. It was only an example, not a mockery.

the jumping jack is a warm up... barely an exercise. And like the full sit up that the army refused to abandon the jumping jack ruins your body. It puts unnecessary stress on your joints & knees as, it is unnatural.
Granted most of these recruits cannot read or "right" (LOL) but that doesn't have nothing to do with fighting. It seems their brothers fighting against us can manage fighting a war with no jumping jack experience.
And the Taliban at any given time controls 35% of the country so, no. We are not winning. It is a hearts and minds war and we lost both of those long ago when we decided to deal drugs and protect the opium fields that are currently devastating their country through addiction & and a foul economy. A-Stan is a lost cause and we need to withdrawal our troops ASAP

 

[briareos]

The jumping Jack is a great exercise and the Taliban are hardly fighting a war at all... they are placing a few bombs here, shooting a bit there before running away and waiting for us to leave.

 

[OnwardChristianSoldier]

They are actrually excellent fighters. Motivating them to fight and to stay in their units is hard Becasue they know that inevitably we are going to leave. Also they see us kill civilians even when by accident, causes them to get mad and desert

 

[Rusticus]

I know several different sources in Iraq and Afghanistan, both high and low level leadership who are concerned about their ability to have their own soldiers maintain order and keep terrorists from taking over the new government once the US leaves. Why is this such an issue? The US has had 10 years to train local troops to take control. What is the problem(s)?

I think you are asking the wrong question.

Why would they want to fight for the objectives of the US? Why would they want to stop "terrorists" from taking over? Surely it's plain to see that they are just waiting for the US to leave "mission accomplished" (as if...) and then it's back to business as usual.

All the so-called "training" the US and Allies provide will in the not-too-distant future be used against the US and Allies. And, sadly, our leaders are too blind to see that.