Why is it OK to indoctrinate children?

Ken Rank · Sep 28, 2016

Nihilist Virus said:
So in summary, please explain why indoctrination is acceptable, why it is necessary, and what the overall motivation/thought process underlying indoctrination is.

I don't think it is acceptable. I think that most Christians have missed the point of the Great Commission and this results in some conclusions that are not as sound as they might think. These conclusions develop into a thought process that isn't as in harmony with Scripture as they might believe. Here is what I mean....

The Great Commission is first of all not started with "GO!" as it appears in English. Instead, it is "going" as in, "as you are going make disciples," rather than, "Go and make disciples." Really, it is a call to walk a righteous walk and when one desires to hear, is seeking, then teach. Seconding, somehow this has morphed into a call to convert the world to Christianity when the word "disciple" means student. Since we can't force anyone to learn, and since John 6:44 says it is God (and not man) who draws a man unto God, and since the Great Commission is in passive form ("as you are going" is passive, "make students" is in command form).... then our desire to convert and save the world becomes the paradigm we are born into. As such, we are inclined to want to 'save' our friends and family, especially our children. So, we almost force them to become clones of us, at least in terms of belief. This causes many problems because we spend our time filling their minds with facts they cannot defend and many end up losing their faith to anyone who can make a decent argument they can't handle.

What the Great Commission really is, is a call to teach others not just facts but the process through which sound conclusions would be made. In the first century, a Rabbi would have taught his student methodology, procedure, and even allowed him to explore the opposing opinions so that when the student arrived at his own conclusions, he would own the answer having had to work through the process to arrive at the answer. This then allows the student to defend his belief and withstand attacks by those who believe differently. And in the process, make him more secure with a result being less polarization between those who might not see eye to eye. This is what we see Yeshua (Jesus) doing... one might ask him a question and then he would answer with a question. However, when that person worked through his question to arrive at an answer, that person will have developed the ability to work through the problem and answer his own initial question.

So I am against filling my children's minds with my thoughts, I don't want to clone myself.... instead, I teach them that there are ways to solve problems. I teach them the same thing I teach at our congregation... historical analysis, linguistic methods, etymology, semiotics, etc. This way, regardless of what problem is before them (biblical or not) they have the tools to work through the issue and arrive at their own conclusions.

Nihilist Virus · Sep 28, 2016

RDKirk said:
I don't think you understood what I said.

Parents ultimately cannot control the beliefs of their children. Madalyn Murray O'Hair, for instance, although she was certainly able to make sure her son Michael possessed an academic understanding of her beliefs, was ultimately unable to control his beliefs.

Until he deliberately made his own beliefs known, all she could discern was his academic knowledge of hers.

Now you are just completely changing what you said. I asked which they would be satisfied with. You said they'd be satisfied if the child did not believe, but merely understood. You then said the parents wouldn't be able to tell the difference between that and belief. The demons understand, and don't believe. I think I can differentiate between that and faithful belief.

RDKirk said:
It's a fair clarification question. You said:

Let me start by saying that I've never, not even once, seen the indoctrination of children explained to be a bad thing by any Christian. I've never seen one Christian rebuke another for the practice.

You didn't specify that you only meant "indoctrination into Christianity." So are you against teaching children moral standards that you expect them to accept uncritically (such as "It's wrong to bite other children") across the board, or are you only offended specifically by the indoctrination of Christianity?

As I said earlier, if a child asks you why it's wrong to murder, you should explain it to them instead of answering, "Because I said so."

Just_a_Joe · Sep 28, 2016

Nihilist Virus said:
Let me start by saying that I've never, not even once, seen the indoctrination of children explained to be a bad thing by any Christian. I've never seen one Christian rebuke another for the practice. In fact I don't even know if I've ever even seen a Christian even address this issue at all, apart from perhaps 1.) when a Christian is questioned on it by an atheist, or 2.) when a Christian remarks that someone is not raising their children properly (seeming to indicate a pro-indoctrination stance).

Therefore I will assume, until told otherwise, that all Christians are of the persuasion that indoctrination of children is acceptable. I am curious as to why this is found to be acceptable.

I also am curious as to why this practice is necessary, since, if we suppose that Christianity is the one true religion, there should be no dire need to perpetuate the religion by means of indoctrinating young minds. Christianity, supposing it is true, will withstand the furious scrutiny of any academic nonbeliever, so there is no threat of extinction looming over it. Furthermore, indoctrination should be unnecessary simply because either 1.) apologetics suffices to convince any rational person, or 2.) the Holy Spirit will reach out to everyone, or at least to those who are called, and since this comes from God it will be more effective than human means (indoctrination, apologetics, etc).

I understand that paternal instinct implores one to protect one's children, and in this case the parent is protecting the child from eternal hellfire, but indoctrination is only successful if it stamps out the freedom of choice in the child. This, to me, seems to be a way of telling God that he is doing it wrong because, apart from Calvanists, free will is more or less a staple doctrine. But even the Calvanists must admit that indoctrination is pointless since indoctrination of a child who is not chosen by God will not result in the child being saved whereas failure to indoctrinate a chosen child will do no harm to the child's salvation.

So in summary, please explain why indoctrination is acceptable, why it is necessary, and what the overall motivation/thought process underlying indoctrination is.

I disagree with your logic here. You're saying that you don't see the need for indoctrination from Christian parents, because if Christians believe their teaching is true then they shouldn't be worried about the teaching to die off without indoctrination.

I think no parents think this way about their children and about their religion. I think they can't care less about the future success or failure of their religion. They are not that selfless.

The motivation is anything but worrying about their religion's future.

Inkfingers · Sep 28, 2016

Nihilist Virus said:
Children sniff out the bizarre claims of the Bible at a very young age. Are you saying you'd suppress those questions during the indoctrination phase, and then allow the questions and answer them to the best of your ability when they reach a certain age?

Absolutely! The children must be crushed with rocks and their remains thrown into a pit of vipers and vinegar...

Stop being silly. Children often believe in the invisible closet monster, their reasoning is not sound (which is why we don't let them sign contracts).

Rescued One · Sep 28, 2016

Nihilist Virus said:
Why not chuck a Bible at the child, tell them the gist of it, encourage them to read it and leave the rest to God? If that is insufficient, then I'd like to know exactly how much help God needs here.

I was given a Bible at age nine. I had been taught that books are for reading. We had no TV and I didn't know anyone else who had no TV. I loved to read! Sometimes I read parts of the Bible. I don't think God needs anything; He made sure that I became a Christian by arranging the events and influences in my life. As I said, my parents didn't raise us to be Christians.

Tallguy88 · Sep 28, 2016

It's a parents duty to raise their child right. Part of that is religious upbringing. Is it indoctrination? In the strict sense, yes. I guess my question is, why is that a bad thing? The Bible says to raise up a child in the ways of the Lord and as an adult he won't depart.

rjs330 · Sep 28, 2016

Nihilist Virus said:
I suggest you fly out here to America and attend Sunday school before you try to correct me on what I lived through from ages 0 to 18.

Apparently the indoctrination didn't work on you.

Here is something you missed. God believes in indoctrinating your children.

Deuteronomy 6:6-7 ESV
And these words that I command you today shall be on your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.

2 Timothy 3:14-15 ESV
But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 6:4 ESV
Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.

Deuteronomy 4:10 ESV
How on the day that you stood before the Lord your God at Horeb, the Lord said to me, ‘Gather the people to me, that I may let them hear my words, so that they may learn to fear me all the days that they live on the earth, and that they may teach their children so.’

Deuteronomy 11:18-19 ESV
“You shall therefore lay up these words of mine in your heart and in your soul, and you shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. You shall teach them to your children, talking of them when you are sitting in your house, and when you are walking by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.

Ephesians 6:1-4 ESV
Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. “Honor your father and mother” (this is the first commandment with a promise), “that it may go well with you and that you may live long in the land.” Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.

So you see that God has an opinion on the matter and he tells us to teach our children the word. No where in scripture does God tell us to teach our children to read the bible and other literature and let them decide for themselves. He doesn't tell us to teach our kids all the religions in the world and let them pick one to believe. He doesn't tell us to teach our kids that atheism is a viable choice. Jesus said bring all the little children to him and do not hinder them. We are to bring the children to him.

Now, at some point we all know that the kids make their own decisions on whether to believe or not. Kids cannot be forced into faith. You can't hold a child down and say you WILL BELIEVE. That is not faith and that is not belief. Faith in Christ is a heart matter and a matter of faith. You cannot force faith. You can teach and instruct and inundate your child with the word of God, but you CAN'T make them believe.

And how foolish would we be if we believed that Jesus was the only way to heaven to not teach our children so. I WANT my kids in heaven with me. There is no way that I would be happy on my deathbed thinking I will never see my kids again because they have chosen to reject Jesus. I would never be happy to say, "Well I guess I'm perfectly satisfied that my kids have chosen atheism and I will never see them again." How foolish.

God tells us to teach all the time. The rest is between them and him. I just have to fulfill my part in the equation and do what he has told me to do.

nChrist · Sep 28, 2016

I give thanks for loving parents who did the best they could to raise me and my brothers in the ways of the Lord. All three of us are Christians and have benefited our entire lives from their labor of love. We have tried the best we know how to do the same things for our children and grandchildren. We have prayed for guidance and help from God along the way.

Just_a_Joe · Sep 28, 2016

357magnum said:
I give thanks for loving parents who did the best they could to raise me and my brothers in the ways of the Lord. All three of us are Christians and have benefited our entire lives from their labor of love. We have tried the best we know how to do the same things for our children and grandchildren. We have prayed for guidance and help from God along the way.

Great. Love, morality and stability is good, no matter which ideology it is based on. Good environment, solid principles. A basis for success in all areas of life.

It applies to Christians, atheists, Muslims, Buddhists, Hinduists, Bahaists, Judaists, Zoroastrians, Sikhs etc. etc.

yeshuaslavejeff · Sep 28, 2016

Nihilist Virus said:
I don't think atheists are worse people.

Correct. JESUS did not warn HIS disciples about atheists. No worry there. No problem.
HE did warn about hypocrisy and oppression and deception from (atheist or not) professionals, lawyers, pastors, priests, business men, scholars, religious actors, religious teachers, false teachers, false prophets, false gospels, and so on.

Just_a_Joe · Sep 28, 2016

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Correct. JESUS did not warn HIS disciples about atheists. No worry there. No problem.
HE did warn about hypocrisy and oppression and deception from (atheist or not) professionals, lawyers, pastors, priests, business men, scholars, religious actors, religious teachers, false teachers, false prophets, false gospels, and so on.

WOW. Even though I agree that anybody is capable of deception, I don't think that Jesus in the canonical gospels mentioned all of the above categories in particular.

yeshuaslavejeff · Sep 28, 2016

Just_a_Joe said:
WOW. Even though I agree that anybody is capable of deception, I don't think that Jesus in the canonical gospels mentioned all of the above categories in particular.

Why do you think you added the adjective "canonical" to your post ?
Instead of
just saying SCRIPTURE.

It is because of what Y'SHUA warns you about IN SCRIPTURE. (but you won't be told, by most anyone. You actually have to seek in HIS WORD, HIS KINGDOM, and keep seeking.

It is VERY CLEAR in SCRIPTURE. (THE BIBLE).

Just_a_Joe · Sep 28, 2016

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Why do you think you added the adjective "canonical" to your post ?
Instead of
just saying SCRIPTURE.

It is because of what Y'SHUA warns you about IN SCRIPTURE. (but you won't be told, by most anyone. You actually have to seek in HIS WORD, HIS KINGDOM, and keep seeking.

It is VERY CLEAR in SCRIPTURE. (THE BIBLE).

Ani lo mevin. You are adding to the Scripture and there is a stern warning not to do it.

Constantine the Sinner · Sep 28, 2016

Nihilist Virus said:
The Holy Spirit does not convict people on whether or not Columbus found land in 1492. But there is a historical event upon which the Holy Spirit comments: the resurrection of Christ. So, on your worldview and on your version of whatever you think indoctrination is, if indoctrination is necessary to convince a student of Columbus' actions it still follows that indoctrination is not necessary to convince anyone of the resurrection. You are making the Holy Spirit out to be useless.

Are you suggesting the Holy Spirit doesn't work through parents?

Nihilist Virus · Sep 28, 2016

Just_a_Joe said:
I disagree with your logic here. You're saying that you don't see the need for indoctrination from Christian parents, because if Christians believe their teaching is true then they shouldn't be worried about the teaching to die off without indoctrination.

I think no parents think this way about their children and about their religion. I think they can't care less about the future success or failure of their religion. They are not that selfless.

The motivation is anything but worrying about their religion's future.

I was just trying to cover all possibilities.

Nihilist Virus · Sep 28, 2016

Inkfingers said:
Absolutely! The children must be crushed with rocks and their remains thrown into a pit of vipers and vinegar...

Stop being silly. Children often believe in the invisible closet monster, their reasoning is not sound (which is why we don't let them sign contracts).

Belief in a closet monster is not indicative of unsound reasoning. That is an empirical issue. There might be some universe that has closet monsters.

Also, a child's disposition to these types of fears is the exact reason that it is unethical to instill the fear of eternal damnation into a young mind. Exploitation of children is wrong.

Nihilist Virus · Sep 28, 2016

Tallguy88 said:
It's a parents duty to raise their child right.

Agreed.

Part of that is religious upbringing.

Why? You're saying that atheists who raise moral, productive members of society haven't properly performed their parental duty?

Is it indoctrination? In the strict sense, yes. I guess my question is, why is that a bad thing?

Indoctrination is not a pathway to the truth. Just ask Muslims, Hindus, Mormons, etc.

The Bible says to raise up a child in the ways of the Lord and as an adult he won't depart.

False. You are referring to Proverbs 22:6, which says,

Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

You made an insertion which dramatically changed the text in order to suit your argument. The insertion is inappropriate considering that the author, King Solomon, was a polytheist (1 Kings 11:1-10), or at least he was a polytheist in his older and wiser years which is when Proverbs was presumably written, so I consider it to be quite a stretch that the verse is suggesting that parents reinforce a monotheistic loyalty to Jehovah.

Nihilist Virus · Sep 28, 2016

rjs330 said:
Apparently the indoctrination didn't work on you.

Here is something you missed. God believes in indoctrinating your children.

Deuteronomy 6:6-7 ESV
And these words that I command you today shall be on your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.

2 Timothy 3:14-15 ESV
But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 6:4 ESV
Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.

Deuteronomy 4:10 ESV
How on the day that you stood before the Lord your God at Horeb, the Lord said to me, ‘Gather the people to me, that I may let them hear my words, so that they may learn to fear me all the days that they live on the earth, and that they may teach their children so.’

Deuteronomy 11:18-19 ESV
“You shall therefore lay up these words of mine in your heart and in your soul, and you shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. You shall teach them to your children, talking of them when you are sitting in your house, and when you are walking by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.

Ephesians 6:1-4 ESV
Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. “Honor your father and mother” (this is the first commandment with a promise), “that it may go well with you and that you may live long in the land.” Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.

So you see that God has an opinion on the matter and he tells us to teach our children the word. No where in scripture does God tell us to teach our children to read the bible and other literature and let them decide for themselves. He doesn't tell us to teach our kids all the religions in the world and let them pick one to believe. He doesn't tell us to teach our kids that atheism is a viable choice. Jesus said bring all the little children to him and do not hinder them. We are to bring the children to him.

Now, at some point we all know that the kids make their own decisions on whether to believe or not. Kids cannot be forced into faith. You can't hold a child down and say you WILL BELIEVE. That is not faith and that is not belief. Faith in Christ is a heart matter and a matter of faith. You cannot force faith. You can teach and instruct and inundate your child with the word of God, but you CAN'T make them believe.

And how foolish would we be if we believed that Jesus was the only way to heaven to not teach our children so. I WANT my kids in heaven with me. There is no way that I would be happy on my deathbed thinking I will never see my kids again because they have chosen to reject Jesus. I would never be happy to say, "Well I guess I'm perfectly satisfied that my kids have chosen atheism and I will never see them again." How foolish.

God tells us to teach all the time. The rest is between them and him. I just have to fulfill my part in the equation and do what he has told me to do.

Thank you for taking the time to rationalize your response. As a follow up question, though, I am curious about whether you actually follow Deuteronomy and all Mosaic law, seeing as how you quoted that the most. Specifically, if you want to impose the values of the book of Deuteronomy onto your children, would you hold your daughter, provided you have one, to the Deuteronomy rape laws if the situation arose?

RedPonyDriver · Sep 28, 2016

Nihilist Virus said:
You're saying that atheists who raise moral, productive members of society haven't properly performed their parental duty?

Don't you know that if you're an atheist, you can't be a moral, productive member of society??? (sarcasm)

Jane_Doe · Sep 28, 2016

Nihilist Virus said:
I didn't read the rest of what you've said because I'm getting tired of this. Teaching and indoctrinating are not equivalent. You can fix your post and let me know so I'll read it, or else I don't care what you have to say.

Who said I disagreed with questioning? Questioning and listening to the answers brings wisdom! My child (or any child) is welcome to question!

Why is it OK to indoctrinate children?

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