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Why is it OK to indoctrinate children?

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Hetta

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Hi. I was indoctrinated myself, from an early age, and spent many years struggling with the particular sect of Christianity in which I was raised. However, I always felt (and still do to a certain extent) that it was a good thing to have faith instilled. Over time, by balancing it with other things I have learned, I have not found m/any negatives in being brought up to believe. FF to my own children, and we decided to also raise them as Christians. They went to church and to Christian school for many years. At home, we talked more generally than "just" about God/the Bible. We are both Liberals, and our kids have always known where we stand on the important things in life. They know we believe in evolution, that we are pro-choice, support gay marriage etc. Interestingly, our children have turned out to be a very mixed bunch. We have one very C/conservative child (eldest), one semi-atheist, one Liberal Christian, and two "don't know's." None of them regret attending church or being taught about God, and I don't regret raising them this way because, in the end, they have made their own choice based upon their intellect.
 
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chilehed

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Let me start by saying that I've never, not even once, seen the indoctrination of children explained to be a bad thing by any Christian...
That's probably because we've never before heard anyone propose the loony idea that teaching things to our children is a bad idea.
 
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Widlast

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The term "indoctrination" is a loaded word (as used by moderns).
The term assumes that what is taught is in some way questionable or cultish.

I will teach my children the truth. Whether the world likes it or not does not interest me in the least.
I know that there will be many who will call it "indoctrination", (and worse things).
Frankly, I don't care what stupid people think.
 
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Kersh

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For a second there, I thought you that you must be my mother. You just described my upbringing amd my siblings for the most part. I am the conservative one of the bunch (but I am the youngest)
 
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crossnote

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If the parents won't the schools will. Parents have the primary duty to raise/teach their children.
 
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"Indoctrinate" or "Indoctrination" means to teach. So apparently you are against teaching children?

This is not a game. At least not for me. Please don't make a mockery of this thread.


So I take it then that you encourage difficult questions? I'll see you on the apologetics forum. Go ahead and post a thread on any topic in the Bible.


You're writing a huge check. Why are you not on the apologetics forms?

A key part of Apologetics is teaching. And the Holy Spirit does transform and teach an individual. But God uses believers as a means to do that, through teaching.

At this point it's like you're screaming from the rooftops that you belong on the apologetics forum.

You have a false assumption that man has autonomous free will. He does not. His choices are limited to his nature, and apart from God's grace, the individual can only make sinful or corrupt choices because of the fallen nature of man.

I do not know what your point is here.


The fundamental error in this statement is the assumption that we know who God's elect are, where we do not have this knowledge. And God commands the Christian to proclaim His gospel to all nations, not just the elect.

Then proclaim the gospel to your children. I'm asking about why it is OK to cram it down their throats and hold their noses.


Back to the original thought: Indoctrination is teaching. Unless someone teaches a child, they will not learn. No one is self-taught.

You started off with the incorrect definition. Then you went to the correct one. Now you went back to the wrong one again. Why?


I'm not sure how you've contributed to my thread other than inviting yourself to participate in the apologetics forum. I asked why indoctrination is necessary. I understand that children will not teach themselves mathematics. I don't think the Holy Spirit does that. The Holy Spirit teaches spiritual things with inerrancy. Why not chuck a Bible at the child, tell them the gist of it, encourage them to read it and leave the rest to God? If that is insufficient, then I'd like to know exactly how much help God needs here.
 
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"Indoctrination" is a loaded term. By definition, it just means to teach.



Referest thou to the archaic definition?

Everyone can choose to raise their kids as they see fit (within reason, of course).

And if you indoctrinate your children, that is, teach them to accept beliefs uncritically, then you are not employing reason. Does teaching something without reason fall in the category of being within reason?


OK.


There's a difference between being unable to walk the delicate balance of complete neutrality and simply not caring at all and brainwashing your children.

Ultimately, kids will grow up and make their own choices about what they believe in. But parents make the call about what is the best way to raise their kids.

I've reached the end of your post and I don't see where anything has been answered.
 
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Poppyseed78

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Yes, I guess I was employing the archaic definition, to teach, or instruct. I do not plan to teach my kids to accept beliefs uncritically.

When I said that parents can raise their kids anyway they see fit "within reason," I meant that they can't literally do whatever they please with their kids. Parents are bound by laws to provide certain things.

You are a very argumentative sort lol. I'm not up for this, it's midnight and I'm just not the one.
 
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I'm not convinced that you know any atheists at all since you don't seem to understand what we even believe. We don't claim that there is no God. We don't believe the positive claim that God exists.

Matt Dilahunty puts it like this:

Imagine there is a gumball machine. A person claims that there is an even number of gumballs in the machine. You say that you don't believe the person. Does this mean you're claiming that there is an odd number of gumballs? No! You simply reject the positive claim that there is an even number.


So this means that parents should be allowed to force religious beliefs upon their children?

What I can't understand is the idea that allowing children to, essentially drift through their existence with no rudder, is considered the more appropriate and viable.

Are you saying that a person is incomplete if they don't have some set of religious principles?

If you are choosing the word "indoctrinate" in lieu of "teach", then that seems more like an attempt to be inflammatory

I chose my terms carefully because the two that you offer mean different things.

 
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You ask: "I am curious as to why this is found to be acceptable."
I reply: ????? Are you suggesting that I don't teach my child?????

I didn't read the rest of what you've said because I'm getting tired of this. Teaching and indoctrinating are not equivalent. You can fix your post and let me know so I'll read it, or else I don't care what you have to say.

 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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"teach (a person or group) to accept a set of beliefs uncritically"

Like thus ? :

"all that matters is Yahweh's commandments and not man-made oral traditions."
and
"Simplicity in following Jesus , remaining blameless, living holy lives, not sinning,
doing what is right no matter what, never harming anyone (be harmless as doves),
having totally changed lives (from pagans and from the life before being born again),
are
hallmarks, signs, indications(vital ones), testimonies of YHWH'S PEOPLE no matter where they are on earth, no matter what country, church, community or culture they were brought up in or live in."
and
"The obedience of the Christian to God ought to be unconditional."
 
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RDKirk

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When parents indoctrinate their children, are they satisfied with the child merely possessing an academic understanding of the faith or do the parents insist on controlling the personal beliefs of their children?

The former. That's all they can discern.
 
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rambot

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I'm not convinced that you know any atheists at all since you don't seem to understand what we even believe. We don't claim that there is no God. We don't believe the positive claim that God exists.
So that affects my point how?

So this means that parents should be allowed to force religious beliefs upon their children?
I've kind of answered this question; but with less sex language than "force". I'm sure that's what you are gunning for, I'm just not up for playing that game.
Are you saying that a person is incomplete if they don't have some set of religious principles?
No, I'm not.


I chose my terms carefully because the two that you offer mean different things.

So indoctrination is a KIND OF teaching, you mean.
I have taught my children about God. The elder ask questions and I engage her in a discussion. I don't force them to believe, but I set up situations that encourage a belief. What I don't do is act like a passive observer of their spiritual life.

I'm sure there are christians who shut down those conversations and do what they can to force their children to believe (though frankly, that doesn't work anyways).

I don't.
 
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It's difficult for me to make sense of everything you're saying. I can't even tell if you're talking to me or about me.

With regards to this part:

So to your question why do we need to teach if it is true?

You seem to think religious knowledge is obtained through some sort of osmosis.

Much mathematical knowledge is true so why do we teach math? Science, history, literature.


My understanding is that the Holy Spirit does not teach mathematics but that it does teach spiritual things. So yes, religious knowledge is obtained through some sort of osmosis.

Your list about God's existence needs to be taken to the apologetics forum.

Finally, with regards to this part:

As to your point of seeing Christian complain that others aren't raising their children properly, (those pesky Christian butinskis) did you miss the fact that your whole post is you telling all Christians "how to raise their kids." Was this meant to be a test to see if we could spot hypocrisy?

What is the hypocrisy you're referring to?
 
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I don't have my own definition of the term. I'm going by the standard definition:



I don't think it's right to indoctrinate children on any matter. If they ask why murder is wrong, you shouldn't reply with, "because it is." You explain why.
 
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Received

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Well, let's keep in mind that for many, perhaps most, religion (including Christianity) is about propagation of memes rather than adherence to its tenets for their own sake. IMV, pretty much all indoctrination as "forcefeeding" a set of beliefs fits with this type of religion.

But if by indoctrination you simply mean implanting your beliefs into children, I don't see how there's any way to avoid this given that children learn more through modeling than through explanation. Even the person who has a doctrine against indoctrination still expresses a doctrine. So the question isn't against indoctrination (if we understand this as meaning a non-forcefeeding type of deal), but the quality of doctrine you'd like to instill in children.

Yes, pluralism and tolerance can be exceptional doctrines to instill. But there are indeed, believe it or not, many strands of Christianity and other religions that are exceptional as well, both in terms of providing the child with a firm source of meaning as well as an ethos that betters society. Personally, I'm down with the pretty conservative Christian apologist and philosopher J.P. Moreland who has told his children that if Christianity ends up being untrue (and I would emphasize to some degree how happy it makes you) they're justified in rejecting it.
 
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Despite what you say about your own upbringing, it sounds like you didn't indoctrinate your children. From that, I'd infer that you are against the idea of indoctrination.
 
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