Why is It Considered Hateful to Call an Act Wrong?

[UberLutheran]

I'm guessing that means I have to pervert the scriptures so I get your attention?

You're already doing a very good job of perverting the Scriptures — at least as far as I can tell by your posts.

I should think that you (and several people here) would find WWMC to be a mission field — ripe for the picking! Just like B®ent did.

 

[ReformedChapin]

You're already doing a very good job of perverting the Scriptures — at least as far as I can tell by your posts.

I should think that you (and several people here) would find WWMC to be a mission field — ripe for the picking! Just like B®ent did.

Oh please tell me how I'm perverting the scriptures...

 

[HaloHope]

18 When I say to a wicked man, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die for [a] his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 19 But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself. Ezekiel 3:18-19

Why do so many people consider it an act of hate or discrimination for a Christian to point out the committing of homosexual acts as sinful?

Well I am a Christian who does not see homosexual acts as being sinful (because I do not believe God thinks they are sinful), but aside from that I am fine with people thinking Im sinning and even telling me so but there are FAR better ways to go about it.

Top 5 Things Fundamentalists Do That I Find Hateful
1) Use complete lies such as "most gay people die at age 40" or whatever the exact quote used recently was to back up their beliefs.

2) Say that AIDS is a gay disease when plenty of hetrosexuals have the disease and lesbians are the least at risk group from it.

3) Use words like pervert, disgusting etc.. to attack gay people. Yes you may believe these words are used to describe gay people in the Bible, but if you care whatsoever about your fellow humans then there are more polite ways of showing your distaste.

4) Telling gay people they are "not in love" with their partner etc that their relationships are just about lust..
Im afraid you have NO clue what a gay persons relationship is based on unless you are those people, Im not going to tell you your relationship is empty, so you have no right to say the same to me and expect a posotive response.

5) Compare homosexuality to pedophilia/beastaility. As soon as you use this particular comparison you pretty much lose all credentials for being even vaugely good to talk too.



If people talk to me politely without wild suppositions and abuse then im Far, FAR likely to respond better.

 

[ReformedChapin]

Well I am a Christian who does not see homosexual acts as being sinful (because I do not believe God thinks they are sinful), but aside from that I am fine with people thinking Im sinning and even telling me so but there are FAR better ways to go about it.

Top 5 Things Fundamentalists Do That I Find Hateful
1) Use complete lies such as "most gay people die at age 40" or whatever the exact quote used recently was to back up their beliefs.

2) Say that AIDS is a gay disease when plenty of hetrosexuals have the disease and lesbians are the least at risk group from it.

3) Use words like pervert, disgusting etc.. to attack gay people. Yes you may believe these words are used to describe gay people in the Bible, but if you care whatsoever about your fellow humans then there are more polite ways of showing your distaste.

4) Telling gay people they are "not in love" with their partner etc that their relationships are just about lust..
Im afraid you have NO clue what a gay persons relationship is based on unless you are those people, Im not going to tell you your relationship is empty, so you have no right to say the same to me and expect a posotive response.

5) Compare homosexuality to pedophilia/beastaility. As soon as you use this particular comparison you pretty much lose all credentials for being even vaugely good to talk too.



If people talk to me politely without wild suppositions and abuse then im Far, FAR likely to respond better.

Everyone has suppositions. It depends on the invidual on how wild they are.

BTW as far as 1 and 2, I never used any of those. As far as number 3 goes, that's what the bible says about homosexuals. 4 is purely subjective, if God is love and one is out of God's standard one might feel the emotion of love but it's not love as God designed it be. 5 is done for logical arguments which I think are valid since it's out of God's design...scripture practically does it itself.

 

[Zaac]

Well I am a Christian who does not see homosexual acts as being sinful (because I do not believe God thinks they are sinful), but aside from that I am fine with people thinking Im sinning and even telling me so but there are FAR better ways to go about it.

I'll interject right here and tell you that you have already gone astray. Now let me tell you why by pointing out to you where most liberal-minded people go wrong.

When it comes to issues of right and wrong, IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT YOU SEE, WHAT YOU THINK, WHAT YOU FEEL, OR WHAT YOU BELIEVE.

What matters is what GOD SAYS.

So if you're telling me what you see, and what you see does not align itself with whta God's Word SAYS, who do you think is right, you or GOD?

Top 5 Things Fundamentalists Do That I Find Hateful
1) Use complete lies such as "most gay people die at age 40" or whatever the exact quote used recently was to back up their beliefs.

Has nothing to do with admitting that homosexual acts are wrong, nor does it change the wrong.

2) Say that AIDS is a gay disease when plenty of hetrosexuals have the disease and lesbians are the least at risk group from it.

Has nothing to do with admitting that homosexual acts are wrong, nor does it change the wrong.

3) Use words like pervert, disgusting etc.. to attack gay people. Yes you may believe these words are used to describe gay people in the Bible, but if you care whatsoever about your fellow humans then there are more polite ways of showing your distaste.

Has nothing to do with admitting that homosexual acts are wrong, nor does it change the wrong.

4) Telling gay people they are "not in love" with their partner etc that their relationships are just about lust..
Im afraid you have NO clue what a gay persons relationship is based on unless you are those people, Im not going to tell you your relationship is empty, so you have no right to say the same to me and expect a posotive response.

Has nothing to do with admitting that homosexual acts are wrong, nor does it change the wrong.

Plus , you can't be in love without the One Who is Love. And as God is a God of order and not confusion, He is not going to give His prohibition against an act, and then allow you to reside in Him( in Love) while committing the sinful act.

5) Compare homosexuality to pedophilia/beastaility. As soon as you use this particular comparison you pretty much lose all credentials for being even vaugely good to talk too.

Has nothing to do with admitting that homosexual acts are wrong, nor does it change the wrong.

 

[GwynApNudd]

If you disagree with homosexual behavior for any reason, then you are considered "homophobic" by the gay crowd. None of the reasons matter.

It is not the simple disagreement that gets you branded, it is the systematic attempt to strip gays of human rights. It's the campaigns to pass laws that allow housing discrimination; that allow harrassment in the workplace; that allow a person to be fired for no other reason than that they are gay.

But if I tell you that God's Word says that the act is wrong, and then proceed to show you why also using God's Word, why all the cries of hate and discrimination?

If that is all that you do, and if you do it respectfully, then you are not being hateful, and I can respect you back.

If you are up in their faces screaming (as many Christians are) then you are acting in a hateful manner. If you are prowling gay areas and physically attacking, and even killing people you suspect of being gay, you are hateful. If you campaign for laws to strip gays of basic human rights, then you are guilty of discrimination.

If I'm repeating God's Word to you, does not the issue become yours if you reject that truth?

If you let it go at that, then yes. But There are too many so-called Christians that do the hateful things I mentioned in the last paragraph.

It's a manipulation tactic to get more support for the gay agenda. You'll notice that all "hate filled conservatives" say is just to repent and follow Christ.

And all of the gay men who turn up battered or dead just tripped and fell down the stairs?

Well, this is imho...But I think the outside world that is not Christian see those who point out to others a sin...as they do not see what they are doing is a sin in Gods eyes.

Therefore it sounds hateful to them...when "sin" is mentioned! Therefore "our new countries rules...that we cannot say anything hateful against anyone of any faith, belief, or any other system that doesn't conform with "our governments beliefs"...Which are not Christian!

No, what is hateful are the hateful actions. The gay bashings. The killings. The concerted campaign to marginalize a people and strip them of their rights.

If you are doing these things then you are acting hatefully. If you are not doing these things but you do support those who do, you are acting hatefully. If you know these things are happening and you deny that fact, then you are supporting the hateful actions. If you know these things are happening and you don't speak out against them because it will make others in your church question your Faith, then you are a moral coward.

If you are doing none of these things, then you are not hateful, you are not a coward, and the charges are not directed at you.

 

[ReformedChapin]

That's irrelvant in this debate, you have any evidence to support "all of the gay men" this happens to?

 

[UberLutheran]

Seems to me that you and some of the conservatives would have a field day at WWMC.

It would be a fundamentalist's dream-come-true: a mission field, consisting of nothing but liberals and liberal Christians, just ripe for the picking!

 

[ReformedChapin]

Seems to me that you and some of the conservatives would have a field day at WWMC.

It would be a fundamentalist's dream-come-true: a mission field, consisting of nothing but liberals and liberal Christians, just ripe for the picking!

Nah, I don't like arguing with so called Christians who cannot even justify their position.

 

[UberLutheran]

Oh please tell me how I'm perverting the scriptures...

Why don't you work on defining the "gay agenda" within the parameters I gave you (several posts ago)?

Oh, I forgot:

#24: Change the subject.
#26: Switch arguments. Start with, "Well, then, what about...?" inserting a new argument. Do this as many times as is necessary.
#27: Accuse your opponent of "playing with semantics", "deliberate distorting the plain meaning of Scripture", "playing word games," or "trying to justify his sinful lifestyle."
#28: Accuse your opponent of "knowing in their heart" that abortion or homosexuality is wrong.

 

[MercyBurst]

It's a manipulation tactic to get more support for the gay agenda. You'll notice that all "hate filled conservatives" say is just to repent and follow Christ.

"Repentance" - now that's a hateful word to some people. They say a loving God made hell for no reason, like God's the big dummie, and the bible crowd is just trying to scare everybody.

 

[UberLutheran]

Nah, I don't like arguing with so called Christians who cannot even justify their position.

NewGuy101 doesn't like arguing...

 

[Zaac]

It is not the simple disagreement that gets you branded, it is the systematic attempt to strip gays of human rights. It's the campaigns to pass laws that allow housing discrimination; that allow harrassment in the workplace; that allow a person to be fired for no other reason than that they are gay.

I haven't said anything about taking anybody's rights or discrimination against anyone because they are gay. This is akin to what I'm talking about though.

You've immediately taken the conversation to something that was not being discussed because those points are key in the agenda to make homosexuals look victimized.

While they are discriminated against, what does any of what you just mentioned have to do with being called hateful for saying that homosexual acts are wrong?

If you are up in their faces screaming (as many Christians are) then you are acting in a hateful manner. If you are prowling gay areas and physically attacking, and even killing people you suspect of being gay, you are hateful.

You're generalizing about Christians in the same way that people generalize that everyone gay has AIDS.

If you campaign for laws to strip gays of basic human rights, then you are guilty of discrimination.

Again, nothing to do with why folks are called hateful for calling the committing of homosexual acts wrong.

If you let it go at that, then yes. But There are too many so-called Christians that do the hateful things I mentioned in the last paragraph.

As hateful as one may perceive those things to be, none of those things give credence to calling someone hateful because they tell you that homosexual acts are wrong.

And all of the gay men who turn up battered or dead just tripped and fell down the stairs?

yes indeed. You've mentioned some hateful acts. But Again, those acts have no bearingon why folks are called hateful or homophobic for calling the committing of homosexual acts wrong.

No, what is hateful are the hateful actions. The gay bashings. The killings. The concerted campaign to marginalize a people and strip them of their rights.

So are you taking hateful acts and ascribing that behavior to anyone who says that the committing of homosexual acts is wrong?

Let me ask you again. In a conversation where I asked one thing, why have you brought up all these issues that have nothing to do with the original question?

We all know what you said takes place. But what does that have to do with folks being called hateful or homophobic for saying that the committing of homosexual acts is wrong?

Why is a pastor who preaches this labeled as a preacher of hate?

 

[MercyBurst]

Something else that I've never quite gotten. Why are Christians suddenly considered to be "scared of homosexuality" just because they speak against the committingof homosexual acts?

It's called "jamming." It's intended to disrupt any reasonable line of communication while blaming the adversary. If you think certain body excretions and waste products are nasty, you must have a mental disorder, you see. Makes perfect sense doesn't it?

 

[MercyBurst]

Why is a pastor who preaches this labeled as a preacher of hate?

'cuz the devil hates him.

 

[GwynApNudd]

That's irrelvant in this debate, you have any evidence to support "all of the gay men" this happens to?

You claimed that all of the people who are denounced as hateful are only saying "repent." So it is definitely relevent to point out that some of them do much more than that and that their actions are, indeed, hateful.

And are crime reports from respected newspapers in various cities around the country (and, indeed around the world) evidence enough? or do you have some special criteria for acceptable evidence? Every week there are at least two or three stories. A random sampling:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/po/20070714/co_po/familyfriendsmournbrutalizedteen

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0WTTkuPX...1498,22062295-5005361,00.html?from=public_rss

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/4968717.html

 

[GwynApNudd]

Please read my post again. You are missing the point.

I haven't said anything about taking anybody's rights or discrimination against anyone because they are gay. This is akin to what I'm talking about though.

And almost the first thing I said is that the adjective "hateful" does not apply if you only, and respectfully, express your beliefs

You've immediately taken the conversation to something that was not being discussed because those points are key in the agenda to make homosexuals look victimized.

While they are discriminated against, what does any of what you just mentioned have to do with being called hateful for saying that homosexual acts are wrong?

Do you claim that these things don't happen? Or that no "respectable" Christians who would never do it themselves sit back and let it happen?

I'm just trying to answer the question "Why are we called "hateful"?

You're generalizing about Christians in the same way that people generalize that everyone gay has AIDS.

No. I specifically separated the people to whom I referred by their actions, and it was the actions of only some of the that I called hateful

Again, nothing to do with why folks are called hateful for calling the committing of homosexual acts wrong.

Again, the hateful folk do more than just say that it is wrong

As hateful as one may perceive those things to be, none of those things give credence to calling someone hateful because they tell you that homosexual acts are wrong.

I agree and have said so all through this post.

yes indeed. You've mentioned some hateful acts. But Again, those acts have no bearingon why folks are called hateful or homophobic for calling the committing of homosexual acts wrong.

They have a great bearing if you, by you inaction encourage these hateful acts.

So are you taking hateful acts and ascribing that behavior to anyone who says that the committing of homosexual acts is wrong?

Read my post!!! I said no such thing. In fact I was careful to say just the opposite.

Let me ask you again. In a conversation where I asked one thing, why have you brought up all these issues that have nothing to do with the original question?

The original question was "Why?" I am telling you why. I am also saying that if you don't want to be smeared by a broad brush because of those who go too far, be clear that you agree that they go too far.

All along, I have been clear to say that if you don't encourage them, you are not hateful.

We all know what you said takes place. But what does that have to do with folks being called hateful or homophobic for saying that the committing of homosexual acts is wrong?

How many times do I have to repeat it? If that is all you do, and if you do it respectfully, then you are not hateful. If you dou hateful things or encourage others to do them, then you are hateful.

Why is a pastor who preaches this labeled as a preacher of hate?[/quote]

A preacher who preaches what? That gays don't deserve human rights? Or that, in his belief, homosexuality is wrong. The first is hateful. The second is not.

 

[Zaac]

And almost the first thing I said is that the adjective "hateful" does not apply if you only, and respectfully, express your beliefs

But why in a conversation about it being considered hateful to call the committing of homosexual acts wrong is it necesary to bring up these other things you believe to be hateful? Honestly, it haves no relevance to the topic. It's a red herring.

Do you claim that these things don't happen? Or that no "respectable" Christians who would never do it themselves sit back and let it happen?

I'm just trying to answer the question "Why are we called "hateful"?

No, you're not answering the question. You're talking about all these other acts. I'm talking about how time and time again , I can look at this board and just because someone has said that homosexual acts are wrong, they are called hateful or homophobic.

No. I specifically separated the people to whom I referred by their actions, and it was the actions of only some of the that I called hateful

Why are those people in a discussion about it being considered hateful to call the committing of homosexual acts wrong ?

Again, the hateful folk do more than just say that it is wrong

On this board, time and time again, I have seen folks branded as hateful or a preacher of hate and bigotry because they dare to say that the committing of homosexual acts is wrong. And the majority of these folks haven't done any of the things of which you speak.

Somewhere along the line, the liberal mind has decided that if you disagree with their viewpoint, you're hateful, disciminatory or a bigot.

They have a great bearing if you, by you inaction encourage these hateful acts.

Now you're just being silly. I don't what realm of Christianity most of yall delve in. But the Christians that I know don't run around tacitly approving of atrocities against anyone.

Consistently on this board, what you're saying simply bears no proof. The minute anyone says anything against homosexuality or the committing of homosexual acts, yall bring out this list of what you say are hateful acts and ascribe them to that person just because they dared speak against your position.

Read my post!!! I said no such thing. In fact I was careful to say just the opposite.



The original question was "Why?" I am telling you why. I am also saying that if you don't want to be smeared by a broad brush because of those who go too far, be clear that you agree that they go too far.

You said exactly that. What you're saying is not consistent with what I keep seeing on this board and what I see in society in general.

I asked why and you immediately started talking about things that some rogue element has done. It's irrelevant.

If I had asked why folks who do that list of things are called hateful, then it would have been relevant.

But I asked about the folks who are speaking to the acts, not the ones doing that list of things you mentioned.

So why bring it up unless you're ascribing to the ones I originally asked about.

Either you intended for it to be relevant to the OP or it's currently irrelevant.



All along, I have been clear to say that if you don't encourage them, you are not hateful.

How many times do I have to repeat it? If that is all you do, and if you do it respectfully, then you are not hateful. If you dou hateful things or encourage others to do them, then you are hateful.

And how many times do I have to say that your list of hateful things serves no purpose for this discussion about folks who aren't doing that, and thus does not need to be presented as if that's the reason folks are calling them hateful.

You said you were showing me why. If the folks that I was talking about in the OP aren't doing these things, and you nor these other folks are ascribing those things to them, then why bring them up?

A preacher who preaches what? That gays don't deserve human rights? Or that, in his belief, homosexuality is wrong. The first is hateful. The second is not.

Did you read the OP? Why are you still talking about human rights?

I'm talking about a preacher who preaches that the committing of homosexual acts is wrong. Why is he labeled as a preacher of hate, and why are folks on this board who say that these acts are wrong called hateful and bigoted?

 

[GwynApNudd]

It is necessary to bring up those other, hateful things in order to answer your question "Why?"

OK let me begin again.

You asked "Why are we called hateful?"

I answered that there are hateful people who identify themselves with your cause. And that there are others in your cause who would not do those hateful things themselves, but who would encourage them.

If you do not do those things or encourage them, then you are not hateful. But some people who have been hurt by the hateful people can only see that they have identified themselves with your cause.

Others, who are not as directly affected, and who therefore, should know better still generalize.

If you do not make any attempt to separate yourself and your cause from these hateful actions, then you make it harder for those on the other side who do make the distinction to know that you don't endorse the hateful actions.

That is why you are called hateful.

 

[Zaac]

It is necessary to bring up those other, hateful things in order to answer your question "Why?"

No it's not. If I ask you why folks call Christians hateful for saying that the committing of homosexual acts is wrong, what relevance does all that other stuff play if they haven't done that?

OK let me begin again.

You asked "Why are we called hateful?"

I answered that there are hateful people who identify themselves with your cause. And that there are others in your cause who would not do those hateful things themselves, but who would encourage them.

Then this goes back to what I said about ascribing hate to folks who haven't done anything hateful.

If you do not do those things or encourage them, then you are not hateful. But some people who have been hurt by the hateful people can only see that they have identified themselves with your cause.

Again, right back to my point of ascribing hate even if the Christian hasn't done anything hateful

As on this board, if you speak against the committing of homosexual acts, you're called hateful.

Others, who are not as directly affected, and who therefore, should know better still generalize.

If you do not make any attempt to separate yourself and your cause from these hateful actions, then you make it harder for those on the other side who do make the distinction to know that you don't endorse the hateful actions.

That is why you are called hateful.

So its as was said. Folks are ascribing hate to every Christian who speaks against the committing of homosexual acts as wrong.