Why Is Immortality/Eternal Life Desirable?

razeontherock · Apr 11, 2011

ToHoldNothing said:
Perhaps they don't exist at all. This is all a moot point until you can demonstrate independently of your faith that they are reasonable to believe in.

1) I have the scars to prove it. (To me, just in case I'm tempted to doubt)

2) You have nothing but the word of others

3) A perverse and wicked generation seeks after a sign. Yeah, ouch - it applies to all of us, at one time or another.

ToHoldNothing said:
So in short, you have the 'promise' of eternal life, so it might as well be eternal life now?

I've tried re-arranging your words and even removing some to make this statement read accurately. I can't do it. If you can re-phrase that, minus the cavalier attitude, I think you'd have it.

Scripture is quite clear on this; it's not left up to us to speculate. And again, we have the testimony of many

ToHoldNothing said:
You didn't, but honestly, the whole orthocentric way of thinking just seems to give that impression thatChristians who don't agree about this orthodox idea of heaven are either heretics or stupid/spiritually blind.

That impression comes SOLELY FROM YOU! I don't even know what the Orthodox idea of heaven is. (I'm sure they must have one, now you have me curious)

ToHoldNothing said:
But you could make some attempt to describe heaven in some way, even if you know it may not make sense to [me]

Notice how I was talking about Eternal Life within Christianity as being different than the idea you discuss here, and you shift back to discussing "heaven?"

Jesus discussed both these topics extensively in the Gospels; how could I possibly improve on that?

ToHoldNothing · Apr 11, 2011

1) I have the scars to prove it. (To me, just in case I'm tempted to doubt)

2) You have nothing but the word of others

3) A perverse and wicked generation seeks after a sign. Yeah, ouch - it applies to all of us, at one time or another.

1) Your so called scars could be explained otherwise. that you dismiss those explanations is your own problem
2)All you have is the word of others in terms of Jesus, unless of course you think you've had some spiritual experience with him, which is neither here nor there in terms of supposed objective evidence in your gospel
3) I was not seeking a sign or miracle, I was asking for basic evidence that you have failed to present. That isn't the same as believing in the spiritual and treating it like a genie.

I've tried re-arranging your words and even removing some to make this statement read accurately. I can't do it. If you can re-phrase that, minus the cavalier attitude, I think you'd have it.

Scripture is quite clear on this; it's not left up to us to speculate. And again, we have the testimony of many

You have the promise of eternal life that is not eternal life in itself, but eternal life hoped for.

If scripture is so clear, why is it that people with your same attitude come to radically different conclusions on the afterlife in Christianity?

That impression comes SOLELY FROM YOU! I don't even know what the Orthodox idea of heaven is. (I'm sure they must have one, now you have me curious)

I'm not talking about Eastern Orthodox, but just a supposedly unified orthodox (emphasis on lowercase o) idea of heaven.

Notice how I was talking about Eternal Life within Christianity as being different than the idea you discuss here, and you shift back to discussing "heaven?"

Jesus discussed both these topics extensively in the Gospels; how could I possibly improve on that?

Maybe because eternal life is connected with heaven in Christianity, or is it more obscure than what already has been communicated?

You could improve on them by asking Jesus yourself instead of looking in the gospels which weren't written by him and in some cases were embellished as to what he said, such as in John in particular.

solarwave · Apr 11, 2011

ToHoldNothing said:
The reflection of Jesus, assuming the events happened, is merely the hope that we will die and then be brought back to life in some shiny new body, which doesn't give us much specificity as to the nature of that body.

No, but I think it would give us more reason to think the Bible might have something useful to say on the subject.

ToHoldNothing · Apr 11, 2011

Useful? Why would you rather continue to come back after dying when dying is not necessarily a bad thing?

razeontherock · Apr 11, 2011

ToHoldNothing said:
1) Your so called scars could be explained otherwise. that you dismiss those explanations is your own problem

Um, guy? I was THERE! Who do you suppose knows more about what happened than I do?

ToHoldNothing said:
2)All you have is the word of others in terms of Jesus, unless of course you think you've had some spiritual experience with him, which is neither here nor there in terms of supposed objective evidence in your gospel

That's a straw man if I ever heard one. "Supposed objective evidence?" Compare:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God"

I already gave you the one about who seeks a sign. You do the math.

ToHoldNothing said:
You have the promise of eternal life that is not eternal life in itself, but eternal life hoped for.

Now you're trying to argue the Scriptures? We've been down that road before and found you aren't willing to do that, so you're not in such a good position to opine on what the Promise is. Obviously you'd be surprised to find out.

ToHoldNothing said:
If scripture is so clear, why is it that people with your same attitude come to radically different conclusions on the afterlife in Christianity?

I'm not talking about Eastern Orthodox, but just a supposedly unified orthodox (emphasis on lowercase o) idea of heaven.

Again, heaven and / or the afterlife is not what I'm discussing here. You are stubborn about not recognizing that!

ToHoldNothing said:
You could improve on them by asking Jesus yourself instead of looking in the gospels which weren't written by him and in some cases were embellished as to what he said, such as in John in particular.

OUCH. That's a sure road to error. Especially John is correct, and to be "sided with" if Scriptures ever appear to contradict. Again, in the past we've concluded you aren't interested in discussing Scripture, so when you bring it up as part of your argument it strikes me as so out of place ...

Has something changed?

ToHoldNothing · Apr 11, 2011

Um, guy? I was THERE! Who do you suppose knows more about what happened than I do?

The insane don't necessarily have a strong grip on reality and can imagine their self destructive behavior or self damaging actions are being caused by something outside themselves, when in fact they are hurting themselves.

That's a straw man if I ever heard one. "Supposed objective evidence?" Compare:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God"

I already gave you the one about who seeks a sign. You do the math.

That's not objective, it's subjective by nature. These people believe they are saved by grace through faith and the involvement of God; that doesn't make them right.

Now you're trying to argue the Scriptures? We've been down that road before and found you aren't willing to do that, so you're not in such a good position to opine on what the Promise is. Obviously you'd be surprised to find out.

Perhaps you'll be surprised if you turn out to be wrong as well. The sword cuts both ways. I wasn't arguing scriptures, I was paraphrasing in some sense what I've understood.

Again, heaven and / or the afterlife is not what I'm discussing here. You are stubborn about not recognizing that!

If you're not discussing them, then make it clearer that you're separating your discussion about eternal life and/or immortality from your personal and subjective beliefs regarding heaven.

OUCH. That's a sure road to error. Especially John is correct, and to be "sided with" if Scriptures ever appear to contradict. Again, in the past we've concluded you aren't interested in discussing Scripture, so when you bring it up as part of your argument it strikes me as so out of place ...

Has something changed

So any experience you've had with Jesus that doesn't line up exactly with your so called revealed scriptures is somehow bunk, even though God's ways are not your ways, God's thoughts are not your thoughts. Who are you or anyone so fixated on scripture to say that God cannot reveal things separately but related to the scriptures through personal revelations? just a thought. Things always change, but not necessarily in the way you seem to think.

Why is John more authoritative, even though evidence suggests it's a later gospel than Mark, Matthew or Luke? Just because it 'seems' that way?

razeontherock · Apr 11, 2011

ToHoldNothing said:
The insane don't necessarily have a strong grip on reality and can imagine their self destructive behavior or self damaging actions are being caused by something outside themselves, when in fact they are hurting themselves.

Oh good. So now a situation where I'm surrounded by people was just, you know, I'm a crazy loon all alone who imagined it all and was cutting myself. Or something.

Ok I get it. Just explain one thing for me?

How do you attempt to pass that off as civil conversation?

ToHoldNothing said:
If you're not discussing them, then make it clearer that you're separating your discussion about eternal life and/or immortality from your personal and subjective beliefs regarding heaven.

Quoting myself, from post #87, p 9:

razeontherock said:
Then it surprises you to learn that Eternal Life in Christianity is not something you wait for, and don't have to (physically) die first?

How much clearer can i make it? This is my whole point so far, and it directly addresses your OP.

ToHoldNothing said:
Who are you or anyone so fixated on scripture to say that God cannot reveal things separately but related to the scriptures through personal revelations?

Not at all what I said, but another strawman.

ToHoldNothing said:
Why is John more authoritative, even though evidence suggests it's a later gospel than Mark, Matthew or Luke?

Nobody said anything about somehow being "more authoritative." And in the time frame and circumstances under consideration, "later" is thoroughly meaningless.

Rather than chasing every rabbit trail, you would gain understanding re: what you ask about in your OP via looking into Christian distinctions btw Eternal Life and whatever you might be thinking of when you use the word "heaven."

ToHoldNothing · Apr 11, 2011

Oh good. So now a situation where I'm surrounded by people was just, you know, I'm a crazy loon all alone who imagined it all and was cutting myself. Or something.

Ok I get it. Just explain one thing for me?

How do you attempt to pass that off as civil conversation?

Call it concern for your mental health.

Quoting myself, from post #87, p 9:

How much clearer can i make it? This is my whole point so far, and it directly addresses your OP.

It presents more questions.Like why would I want eternal life at al? You haven't answered that question, which would be directly addressing the OP

Not at all what I said, but another strawman.

Then by all means speak what you actually meant instead of dancing around the issue with supposedly sage like sayings.

Nobody said anything about somehow being "more authoritative." And in the time frame and circumstances under consideration, "later" is thoroughly meaningless.

Rather than chasing every rabbit trail, you would gain understanding re: what you ask about in your OP via looking into Christian distinctions btw Eternal Life and whatever you might be thinking of when you use the word "heaven

Except heaven basically is a state of eternal life in Christianity, along with immortality in that you won't die any real death, because of your soul and whatnot. How is this mistaken from a Christian perspective? And where did I indicate this was just about Christian perspectives? THis OP applies to any idea of eternal life/immortality/heaven/etc

razeontherock · Apr 11, 2011

ToHoldNothing said:
It presents more questions.Like why would I want eternal life at al? You haven't answered that question, which would be directly addressing the OP

Well with this you are at least addressing the OP and the title. And your question cannot effectively be addressed until you recognize what Eternal Life refers to within Christianity, but as long as you're confusing that with "heaven" we won't be getting anywhere.

By presenting this question in this sub-forum, you are asking for the C POV. Since NC's aren't allowed to post here, (other than the OP) if that's not your intent it would be wise to take up this question where NC's can post.

It is wrong to conflate "heaven" with EL from the C perspective, due to what the Scripture says plainly. Things like "this is written that we may KNOW we have EL" is not presumptuous in the least, unless you think that really was written for dead people to read?

ToHoldNothing · Apr 11, 2011

Well with this you are at least addressing the OP and the title. And your question cannot effectively be addressed until you recognize what Eternal Life refers to within Christianity, but as long as you're confusing that with "heaven" we won't be getting anywhere.

Then by all means try to distinguish/separate them from each other without making Christianity look even more potentially absurd/illogical/incoherent/unintelligible

By presenting this question in this sub-forum, you are asking for the C POV. Since NC's aren't allowed to post here, (other than the OP) if that's not your intent it would be wise to take up this question where NC's can post.

If I post any more versions of this topic, they'll probably start cutting them down, unless I phrase it in more and more subtle ways.

It is wrong to conflate "heaven" with EL from the C perspective, due to what the Scripture says plainly. Things like "this is written that we may KNOW we have EL" is not presumptuous in the least, unless you think that really was written for dead people to read

How does this distinguish it from heaven? and of course it's not for dead people, because eternal life by definition would not involve being dead. You're not being clear in clarifying what exactly heaven and eternal life are in any sense. you're expecting me to just figure everything out with no input from you half the time, it seems.

razeontherock · Apr 11, 2011

ToHoldNothing said:
You're not being clear in clarifying what exactly heaven and eternal life are in any sense. you're expecting me to just figure everything out with no input from you half the time, it seems.

Now these are fair statements.

So I've succeeded in making my point, that EL and whatever you might think of via the word "heaven" are not necessarily the same thing? Good. That was my original objective, and my input. I raised this point because this is something I wouldn't "expect you to figure out."

Never did I intend for my input to attempt to define either one. I have heard of C's analyzing what the Bible says, not about "heaven" or "the afterlife," but what it really does say, and concluding very specific things that must occur, including changes to the laws of physics. My ears perked up enough to remember this, but no I did not run out and buy the book. Neither do I have specific revelation on "heaven."

As far as trying to define what EL is, as starting now within C, you can go with Scripture, or personal testimony. As both need to agree and cannot conflict, choose your poison

ToHoldNothing · Apr 11, 2011

Now these are fair statements.

So I've succeeded in making my point, that EL and whatever you might think of via the word "heaven" are not necessarily the same thing? Good. That was my original objective, and my input. I raised this point because this is something I wouldn't "expect you to figure out."

You're not being clear with a philosophical thesis: Heaven and eternal life are not the same thing, which is the opposite to mine that heaven and eternal life are the same thing (with qualifications) all you've succeeded in doing is actually making your main point instead of all the tangents

Never did I intend for my input to attempt to define either one. I have heard of C's analyzing what the Bible says, not about "heaven" or "the afterlife," but what it really does say, and concluding very specific things that must occur, including changes to the laws of physics. My ears perked up enough to remember this, but no I did not run out and buy the book. Neither do I have specific revelation on "heaven."

So basically you're going to claim they're not the same without any real support for your conclusion? That'd be no different than just saying God is clearly three in one and leaving it at that. And equally sophomoric.

As far as trying to define what EL is, as starting now within C, you can go with Scripture, or personal testimony. As both need to agree and cannot conflict, choose your poison

Except neither of them is clear, as Christians all disagree as to the nature of eternal life is. Some believe it is conditional from God, some believe it is unconditional for all, some believe it is unconditional for the elect, and so on.

Tempura · Apr 11, 2011

Good question, OP.

For me, it's not that desirable, I am not being religious so that I could chase the ultimate reward of eternal life in heaven (or ultimate punishment, if one thinks of hell). I know you said you didn't necessarily mean heaven or hell.

When I think of eternal life, I will think of heaven, or something good, truthful and revealing, the true and full form of soul. Because I am simple and in many ways like a child, I like to believe this "full form of soul" could be simultaneously same for everyone, yet different for everyone. I want people to have their own infinite personal happiness and at the same time be connected to everyone.

Eternal life (one in happiness) is something I mainly wish for people who had a life of suffering. I want those people to have something they couldn't get in this life. Yet, this is what I want for them - when in reality many of these people probably were happy with the idea that after death there is nothing. I don't know. I just want it to be a fulfillment for everyone, a state where everyone could get what they yearn for.

So to answer your question - I have no idea, but I still wanted to waste your time.

ToHoldNothing · Apr 11, 2011

For me, it's not that desirable, I am not being religious so that I could chase the ultimate reward of eternal life in heaven (or ultimate punishment, if one thinks of hell). I know you said you didn't necessarily mean heaven or hell.

Just the relationship is reward enough, sounds like. Which does seem to line up more theologically and just philosophically.

When I think of eternal life, I will think of heaven, or something good, truthful and revealing, the true and full form of soul. Because I am simple and in many ways like a child, I like to believe this "full form of soul" could be simultaneously same for everyone, yet different for everyone. I want people to have their own infinite personal happiness and at the same time be connected to everyone.

Problem is, why should personal happiness be eternal/infinite? Isn't something valuable the more that it is temporary and should be valued itself for the time it does exist? Being connected to everyone doesn't imply just happiness either. We can be very sad when we lose those we love, but even that can be seen as something to be happy about in that it is a learning experience.

Eternal life (one in happiness) is something I mainly wish for people who had a life of suffering. I want those people to have something they couldn't get in this life. Yet, this is what I want for them - when in reality many of these people probably were happy with the idea that after death there is nothing. I don't know. I just want it to be a fulfillment for everyone, a state where everyone could get what they yearn for.

Sounds like Kant's reasoning for why the afterlife should exist: there is perceived injustice, so the afterlife will somehow make things right by punishing the bad and rewarding the good. Problem is, it would seem to be playing favorites, which is less than ideal.

So to answer your question - I have no idea, but I still wanted to waste your time.

I wouldn't call it time wasting if we can still engage in discussion on the topic at hand

razeontherock · Apr 11, 2011

ToHoldNothing said:
So basically you're going to claim they're not the same without any real support for your conclusion? That'd be no different than just saying God is clearly three in one and leaving it at that. And equally sophomoric.

Feel free to stop your flaming any time. The only "support" offered is A) Scripture B) personal testimony. You appear insistent upon C) none of the above, so i don't see how you expect to come to an answer anytime soon, but the heavens do declare His majesty.

ToHoldNothing said:
Except neither of them is clear, as Christians all disagree as to the nature of eternal life is. Some believe it is conditional from God, some believe it is unconditional for all, some believe it is unconditional for the elect, and so on.

Scripture is QUITE clear on the nature of Eternal Life - and the things you mention here have nothing to do with it. You could read 2 Peter for starters. The very first chapter might just be the best address of that topic.

Tempura · Apr 11, 2011

ToHoldNothing said:
Problem is, why should personal happiness be eternal/infinite? Isn't something valuable the more that it is temporary and should be valued itself for the time it does exist? Being connected to everyone doesn't imply just happiness either. We can be very sad when we lose those we love, but even that can be seen as something to be happy about in that it is a learning experience.

Yes, a temporary thing should be valuable. Never denying that. Also agreeing with losing loved ones - of course I cherish the moments and lessons learned. You asked why should personal happiness be eternal? I'm not saying it should, nor claiming to know that it is.

ToHoldNothing said:
Sounds like Kant's reasoning for why the afterlife should exist: there is perceived injustice, so the afterlife will somehow make things right by punishing the bad and rewarding the good. Problem is, it would seem to be playing favorites, which is less than ideal.

I have never liked the idea of "punishing the bad". About playing the favorites thing, I have often thought about that if eternal life exists, how much would we have our persona intact, with memories too? Let's play the heaven/hell-thing here. If I would wake up in heaven, and find that my father would be in hell - what reward is that? Surely I'd be sad for eternity.
What would be ideal for everyone? Probably nothing.

ToHoldNothing said:
I wouldn't call it time wasting if we can still engage in discussion on the topic at hand

Yep. This is a really interesting subject. Everyone has his own idea, or at least a wish of what eternal life would or should be, and every idea has it's pro's and con's.

I can only believe/hope like a little child.

razeontherock · Apr 11, 2011

A couple things here:

ToHoldNothing said:
Just the relationship is reward enough, sounds like. Which does seem to line up more theologically and just philosophically.

This is MUCH more like a workable definition of EL than anything else I've seen in this thread!

ToHoldNothing said:
Sounds like Kant's reasoning for why the afterlife should exist: there is perceived injustice, so the afterlife will somehow make things right by punishing the bad and rewarding the good. Problem is, it would seem to be playing favorites, which is less than ideal.

"Playing favorites" is a Biblical concept, that only gains clarity as we approach it's end. The point all along has been to "walk after the Spirit, not after the flesh." Yes, that's pretty veiled in the OT, but it's still discernible, w/ enough study.

Never was it truly racism / prejudice / homophobia or any of the other normal accusations.

ToHoldNothing · Apr 11, 2011

Feel free to stop your flaming any time. The only "support" offered is A) Scripture B) personal testimony. You appear insistent upon C) none of the above, so i don't see how you expect to come to an answer anytime soon, but the heavens do declare His majesty.

You insist that these count as support. What would be wrong with deriving something more philosophical from those scriptures? textual analysis, deriving common themes from the literature even? I'm not asking for a dissertation here, just for something systematic.

Scripture is QUITE clear on the nature of Eternal Life - and the things you mention here have nothing to do with it. You could read 2 Peter for starters. The very first chapter might just be the best address of that topic

If you don't understand eternal life as immortality, then what do you understand it as? they're not identical, but they're not as different like apples and coconuts.

ToHoldNothing · Apr 11, 2011

Yes, a temporary thing should be valuable. Never denying that. Also agreeing with losing loved ones - of course I cherish the moments and lessons learned. You asked why should personal happiness be eternal? I'm not saying it should, nor claiming to know that it is.

well, is it more logical or reasonable for any kind of happiness to be eternal: or does it make more sense for happiness to be transient, like fortune?

I have never liked the idea of "punishing the bad". About playing the favorites thing, I have often thought about that if eternal life exists, how much would we have our persona intact, with memories too? Let's play the heaven/hell-thing here. If I would wake up in heaven, and find that my father would be in hell - what reward is that? Surely I'd be sad for eternity.
What would be ideal for everyone? Probably nothing.

If the ideal is nothing, then annihilationism or soul sleep in some sense for everyone makes things fair and equal, lol.

That's another thing some posters elsewhere pointed out. how can you be genuinely happy knowing that some people you love are in hell? Some have answered that we won't know, because we'll be too happy. I think Tertullian might have said it, I'm not sure, something to the effect of, "those in heaven will watch (in some way) as those in hell suffer", but I could be wrong.

Yep. This is a really interesting subject. Everyone has his own idea, or at least a wish of what eternal life would or should be, and every idea has it's pro's and con's.

I can only believe/hope like a little child.

I never put much thought into it, and when I did, it just made me want it less and less

ToHoldNothing · Apr 11, 2011

This is MUCH more like a workable definition of EL than anything else I've seen in this thread!

Any relationship that's eternal does not equal to eternal life, but an eternal relationship, which is by no means what even life generally means. unless you want to boil things down to purely relationships with humans, in which case you sound more like a secular humanist in general scope.

"Playing favorites" is a Biblical concept, that only gains clarity as we approach it's end. The point all along has been to "walk after the Spirit, not after the flesh." Yes, that's pretty veiled in the OT, but it's still discernible, w/ enough study.

Never was it truly racism / prejudice / homophobia or any of the other normal accusations

but you admit it's favoritism. and your justification is that only those initiated into the full idea are aware of it being good. Gnostic undertones again...

Why Is Immortality/Eternal Life Desirable?

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